The Complete Champion: Good, Bad, or Ugly?

[Just_Some_Girl]

Soooo, has anyone bought the Complete Champion yet? In general I'm thrilled with all the Complete books, but I've heard dubious things about this one (i.e. repetitive, more fluff than usuable material, the spells suck, blah, blah, blah) and though it might be the general flurry of hate and death that erupts whenever WotC publishes something and is totally forgotten a week later, it could also mean that this book does in fact suck.

So, what do you folks think?

[Damionte]

Click on the link in my sig. I wrote a review for it there.

[Quietus]

There's been a number of people pulling fresh gouda out of it, but most of it seems pretty obvious, like the spontaneous-divination-casting-wizards.

[YuanTi]

I liked CA, CAv, CD and CW, but I haven't bought CC yet. Do people think it's worth getting. (Also what are the base classes.)

[Dhavaer]

I liked CA, CAv, CD and CW, but I haven't bought CC yet. Do people think it's worth getting. (Also what are the base classes.)

Assuming it's like Mage and Scoundrel, Champion doesn't have any base classes.

[Swooper]

I liked CA, CAv, CD and CW, but I haven't bought CC yet. Do people think it's worth getting. (Also what are the base classes.)

I don't have it (and don't intend buying it anytime soon, there's dozens of books I need before that thing), but I can tell you that only those four 'base' completes that you own already offer new base classes. The Complete Scoundrel, Complete Mage, Complete Champion and, presumably, the TBA Complete Warrior sequel don't have more base classes.

Edit: Ninjas, they're everywhere!

[YuanTi]

Oh, that sucks. Do they have PrCs?

[Swooper]

EVERYTHING has PrCs :p

[Ninja Chocobo]

EVERYTHING has PrCs :p

Welll...not quite...
The Monster Manuals don't have PrCs...
I don't think the Spell Compendium does, and neither does the Players Handbook.
Ehm...
Think that's about it, really.

[Dhavaer]

Welll...not quite...
The Monster Manuals don't have PrCs...
I don't think the Spell Compendium does, and neither does the Players Handbook.
Ehm...
Think that's about it, really.

The DMG2 and PHB2 also don't have PrCs.

[Arbitrarity]

It... has a spell that makes... natual 20's.

Expend the spell, treat any roll as if you had rolled a NATURAL 20!

Artificers with wand surge, and scrolls of unfettered heroism, as well as metamgic spell completion, soon followed. Or wands/staffs of unfetterd heroism, and metamagic spell trigger.

And vorpal weapons.

[Raum]

Complete Champion may be worth while if you're DMing a default campaign.

The first chapter details various affiliations, about half are specific to Greyhawk gods while the other half are domain affiliations. The second chapter covers feats and prestige classes. The PrCs are mostly built around the affiliations and Greyhawk deities. The feats are similar to those in CM but divine instead of arcane - reserve feats for divine characters, domain specific feats, etc. Chapter three adds new spells for divine casters, mostly cleric and paladin. Chapter four details a few items and chapter five finishes up with adventure hooks and site descriptions...again most are specific to Greyhawk.

Over all, it's heavily targeted towards Greyhawk DMs. It really should have been sold as a world specific source book in my opinion.

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

Dislike it intensely; difficult to adapt, repeats a lot of concepts I've seen before, some degree of possible cheese/power creep.

Nothing to like here that I see.

[Fax Celestis]

I like it. There is some cheese, yes, but there's cheese in everything. I look at a lot of the PrCs and feats and say, "Why didn't they have this already...?"

[DraPrime]

The only thing that I liked was the alternate class features and the "special" holy symbols. Everything else was either too greyhawk specific, useless, already in some other book, or something that any decent DM could think of on his own in about 5 minutes. And I hate how they completely ignore evil gods here. It's almost useless to anyone who wants to play an evil "champion." Seriously, I liked Complete Mage and Scoundrel even though the lacked base classes, but Complete champion is a waste of money. And most of the Prcs are all very "organization specific." These organizations could be added to a campaign setting but most of them aren't actually anything original. Just borrow it from some moron who did buy it, use the small amount of good stuff, and then give it back to the moron.

[Telonius]

I've borrowed it from my moron fellow gamer, and I have to agree with the generally "blah" responses. Not too much great in here, especially for an Eberron-centered campaign like we've been playing.

I like the "Shadowspy" idea, but it just doesn't seem all that terrific. I agree that it should have been sold as a Greyhawk setting book.

[Kioran]

It´s part of the ridiculous powercreep machine and offers some cheese, but it doesn´t give away power for free wthout brain activity, hence it is not "made of very much win" (sic!).
It is also relatively setting specific and not to terribly revolutionary and new......

[AtomicKitKat]

The DMG2 and PHB2 also don't have PrCs.

Neither does Fiendish Codex I. It just has a list of "suggested" PrCs, but no actual ones. :( You'd think they could have borrowed some of the Thralls from Dragon(especially in light of the magazine shutting down), or come up with some. FC1 was extremely crunch-lite.

[Forks]

Its got some super cheese in the Lion Totem alternate barbarian. You can get the pounce ability at LEVEL ONE! Can anyone say "Dip please?" IMO it should be switched with the level 6 lion totem ability, which is an aoe intimidate type thing.

[Like a Lion]

On the bright side, the Ordained Champion is cool, and there's another class with the special ability Not in the Face.

[Qooroo]

Personally, I thought it had its moments. The alternate class features are fairly cool. Pounce, while strong, isn't as broken as everyone thinks (for example, it doesn't kick in until level 6 anyway), though it does make Barbarian one a killer dip for any non-TOB meleer (which it pretty much was anyway).

As far as PrCs go, I'm in love with the Holt Warden and Sanctified One.

[Malek]

Bo-riiiing. There were one or two nice alternate class features, one feat that could be abused a bit (the reserve one that allows healing) and single PrC (Paragnostic Apostole - for flavor really, as it isn't all that great mechanic-wise) that caught my eye. There might be some worthwhile spells, didn't read them yet. Summing it all up CC is quite disappointing compared to previous complete's.

[Ramza00]

I haven't had time to look through it much, I really like these things.
Holt Warden (gives you the plant domain and domain slots, but its a very high rp prc, I like the combination good crunch with good flavor) and the
Ordained Champion (lose 2 spell levels out of 5, cast spells spontaneously and as swift actions from the war domain divine power, blade barrier, flamestrike are all on the war domain), as well as the
Lore of the Gods spell (up to +10 bonus on knowledge checks)
Knowledge Devotion, bonus to attack and damage based off knowledge check for the creature type.
If you haven't notice I kinda like archivists

[DraPrime]

I forgot to mention earlier that I like some of the domain feats. Some are crap and some are good. That and I like that they added eaven more reserve feats. I played a sorcerer with reserve feats. It was awesome. But besides that, yeah the book is crap.

[Fax Celestis]

So, besides the alternate class features, the alternative holy symbols, and three-quarters of the feats, you think it's crap? Sounds like you liked a good portion of the book.

[DraPrime]

Let me clarify, only about 1/4 of the reserve feats and 1/3 of the domain feats are good. Special holy symbols, SOME of the alternate class features (the paladin ones suck), and none of the Prcs, junk at the beggining, and generic organizations suck. Not to mention the way they ignore the evil gods. That just pisses me of.

[Lycar]

Ah yes, Complete Champion. The opinions diverge. There are a lot of nice ideas in there but nothing that's a must have. However, i have a weak spot for fighter types (and bards) and the book offers a few nice things for them.

Maybe not enough to buy the book but lets take a closer look.

Alternative class features for the bard are Healing Hymn and Hymn of Fortification. Healing Hymn means you don't get the Fascinate ability.

Which totally kills this feature for me. It's effects amount to double your partys nightly recovery of HP or if you perform the Hymn while an ally casts a healing spell, they get a bonus on the roll for healed HP equal to your ranks in perform. It is a nice boost, but to take away the Fascinate (and therefore the Suggestion ability which requires fascinated recipients !) effect is totally NOT worth it.

Hymn of Fortification means you use your music/singing/recinting etc to create an effect quite similar in effect to Protection from Evil. Use on self or one ally. Requires sacrificing the Inspire Competence ability. Now this might be worth it if you find yourself never using Inspire Competence anyway.

And imagine your bard blocking a doorway from approaching (summoned) demonic hordes and yelling at them "You ! Shall ! Not ! Pass !"

Clerics get to sacrifice a single 4th lv spell slot to get a Pool of Healing equal to 5x (1+ div. caster lv) HP per day which pretty much works like a Lay on Hand. Yes that means you can use it to touch attack some undead.

Fighters.... ah.. now the interesting stuff starts.

Aligned Strike: Take in place of your fighter bonus feat at lv 4 or above. Use a free action to align your wielded weapon (or the ammo you fire from it) to one of your alignement traits. A chaotic good fighter can make his weapon either chaotic or good for overcoming DR, a NE one only evil.

Very neat if your campaign features hostiles that need a good aligned weapon every now and then.

Armour of God: Take instead of your bonus feat of fighter lv 8 or above. Allows you to shift your BASE will save to AC as an immediate action. Now this would be a LOT nicer if you could shift your whole will save. After all, what is the point of having a high wisdom fighter otherwise.

But it works nicely flavour-wise too. The dedicated fighter uses all his skill and concentration to avoid being cut in half. Of course that kind of distraction leaves one more vulnerable to insidious attempts to subvert one's will....

Resolute: Ah..... we always bemoaned the fact that the poor fighter is so vulnerable to will-based SoD and SoS effects. Well, Resolute requires your 2nd lv or higher fighter bonus feat. It allows you to immediately shift 1/2 your BAB to will save. See, thats just what a fighter needs: Something to boos his will save when he really needs it ! And all that suffers is his offensive capability for that round. Which otherwise would probably be totally negated by failing the save anyway. Sure, the bonus isn't huge but it sure helps !


There are other features for all the base classes but i won't go into details here.

Open to abuse are the Reserve feats, however. Touch of Healing: As long as the cleric still has a healing spell of 2nd or higher level available, he can, as a standard action, heal 3 x highest lv of healing spell available HP.

Or in other words: As long as you have a Cure Moderate Wounds ready, you can heal all day. Only caveat: You cannot heal anyone up to more then 1/2 his/her full HP. Still pretty powerful.

Hm... 3 lv of cleric and you are set....


Lycar

[Ramza00]

The Bardic Alternative Class Features are not that bad if you have access to Races of Faerun. In that book is a combat bard prc called the Warrior Skalad. This prc will give you access to all these bardic musics at lvl 1 of Warrior Skalad (or when you get the neccessary perform ranks, you need both before you have access to these songs) countersong, fascinate, inspire competence, inspire courage, inspire greatness, suggestion.

The only bardic music you get via bard you dont' get with Warrior Skalad 1 is Inspire Heroism which you get at lvl 6 of Warrior Skalad. Warrior Skalad gives other bardic musics, full bab, good fort and reflex, d6 hit points, more bardic music attempts, no spells or bardic knowledge

(This prc also works great as a lvl 1 dip for a Warblade/Crusader bard with Able Learner, Song of the White Raven, and perhaps Extra Music. Remember for the Pre Reqs of Warrior Skalad you can use Stone Power instead of Power Attack)

[Matthew]

...chapter five finishes up with adventure hooks and site descriptions...again most are specific to Greyhawk.

Over all, it's heavily targeted towards Greyhawk DMs. It really should have been sold as a world specific source book in my opinion.

Oh man, if only... Must be part of the drive towards publishing more Core Adventures.

[Damionte]

Greyhawke IS the base D&D world now. so everything published as a generic book is goign to have examples for that world.

Ebberon & F-Realms have thier own books which do the same thing.