Balor marathon

[Skjaldbakka]

How low level can you make a character that can take a Balor(solo)?

We will assume 32 point buy, pure average HP, standard wealth, All completes + tome of battle.

Also:
What build, at level 20, can single-handedly defeat the most Balor's consecutively? (same rules, assume every 15 minutes a Balor appears in the room/arena.)

No Gate or Wish Cheese, please.

EDIT-
since people keep bringing up things not in the spirit of this thread:

No diplomancy
The low level build has to win 75% of the time against the Balor.

[SpikeFightwicky]

How low level can you make a character that can take a Balor(solo)?

We will assume 32 point buy, pure average HP, standard wealth, All completes + tome of battle.

Also:
What build, at level 20, can single-handedly defeat the most Balor's consecutively? (same rules, assume every 15 minutes a Balor appears in the room/arena.)

No PHB II?

[Skyserpent]

level 6.
his name is Punpun.

If I have to explain this I will hurt something.

[Iku Rex]

How low level can you make a character that can take a Balor(solo)?

Melee? Buff time? Odds of winning?

[Skjaldbakka]

PunPun cannot be done with the listed books. He requires a Forgotten Realms monster IIRC. And I suppose PHBII should be included in this discussion.

The low level set-up.
-As much prep-time as you want. Assume teleporting into proximity of Balor after whatever prep you would like to do. All prep must be self-cast, and no Leadership. Proximity is defined as optimal range for whatever it is that you are built to do.

[brian c]

You know, I never exactly noticed this before but:

Summon Demon (Sp)

Once per day a balor can automatically summon 4d10 dretches, 1d4 hezrous, or one nalfeshnee, glabrezu, marilith, or balor. This ability is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell.

So one Balor can summon one more Balor, who summons another, who summons another, who summons another... ad infinitum. Even if it's a full-round action, that means you need to be able to kill a Balor in one round, otherwise you're fighting all of the Balors in existence


Edit: Ah, okay. ReluctantDragon, don't be sorry, I'm glad it doesn't work that way :) Still though, 1 Balor effectively becomes 2 Balors unless you kill it right away. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm trying to figure out how easy it is to kill one.

[ReluctantDragon]

A summoned Balor cannot use its summoning ability.

No infinite loops. Sorry.

RD.

[Quietus]

You know, I never exactly noticed this before but:





So one Balor can summon one more Balor, who summons another, who summons another, who summons another... ad infinitum. Even if it's a full-round action, that means you need to be able to kill a Balor in one round, otherwise you're fighting all of the Balors in existence

Untrue. Note that creatures summoned through this method can't use their own respective summoning abilities for the duration of the summon.

[Daedo daShoegod]

A summoned creature cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities.
If it was "Call Tanar'ri" then the Balors could summon an army, but there would only be two balors and the second balor couldn't use greater teleport or Summon Tanar'ri if the original Balor decided to use that ability.

[I_Got_This_Name]

Hmm. . .

We need something that can come out of a fight at full health, to get infinite endurance. That means Crusader.

Unfortunately, as a melee without very good mobility, the 'sader is stuck fighting on the Balor's terms.

A Warblade with Iron Heart Endurance might also be able to take it. Of course, then he's stuck fighting at half HP, and needs to do 290 damage.

We're looking at a Master of Nine build, then, for Iron Heart Endurance and Strike of Righteous Vitality. Strike of Perfect Clarity wouldn't hurt either (well, actually it would. A lot. But it won't hurt this guy). The rest can probably be Swordsage, for Evasion (Improved would be nice, but this needs Master of Nine; 3 levels in Mo9 gives both, though), a good reflex save, and access to Shadow Hand mobility maneuvers.

Feats needed: Stormguard Warrior, Robilar's Gambit (that might be PHB2, though; if it is, ignore it), Karmic Strike, prerequisites for Master of Nine. Unfortunately, with prerequisites, this comes to 10 feats (8 without RG), which may mean that it's time for some fighter multiclassing.

Equipment needed: It's nice, but no single item is strictly necessary for this.

There are a few nifty tricks he can use. Mountain Tombstone Strike knocks an average of seven CON off the Balor, which drops it by 60 HP and drops its Death Throes save DC to 27. Then there's a rather nifty tactical combo that he can use:
Round 1: Adamantine Bones. If it hits, offer Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike. Store AoOs in Stormguard Warrior (six from RG if the balor makes its full attack routine, and more for each hit. The longsword averages 20 damage, +4 for RG, so your DR should eat it most of the time. You then get +4 to hit and damage for each AoO you would have gotten).
Round 2: If your DM allows a counter to be used in reply to Death Throes if you kill it on your turn after taking a swift action, switch stance to Martial Spirit or Aura of Triumph to recoup HP lost to Balor. Avalanche of Blades. Action Before Thought when it dies. If, through some stroke of luck, your attack bonus drops to +30 or below (remember, you're getting +24, at least, from the AoOs you didn't take) before it dies, use Stormguard Warrior (again), this time to make touch attacks; 14 points of its AC come from Dex, so you can get three more guaranteed hits off, for a total of +15 damage per attack on your next round. Doesn't compare to the (at least) +24 you're getting this round, but it helps.
Round 3: If the Balor's still standing, finish it with Time Stands Still. When it dies, use Action Before Thought, just like was planned for round 2.

Extending this to a full-battle schedule:
Round 1: Enter in some useful stance to boost your defenses; Flame's Blessing is nice for fire immunity, especially for as long as the Balor doesn't know you have it. Strike of Righteous Vitality to recover HP lost to previous Balor.
Round 2: Mountain Tombstone Strike; every point knocked off the Death Throes save DC is nice. Possibly swap Round 2 and Round 1, if you're not badly wounded
Round 3: See Round 1 of above tactic.
Round 4: See Round 2 of above tactic.
Round 5: See Round 3 of above tactic.
Round 6: Use Adaptive Style to recover maneuvers.

If it summons another Balor, kill it in exactly the same way.

Countering the Balor's tactics:
Teleport into melee.
Use Mind over Body to counter Implosion; if it tries to Telekinese, you can count on your will save (unless it uses the Combat Maneuver version)
Since it hasn't been full attacking you if it's been using its spells, you're safe from Power Word: Stun. Moment of Perfect Mind beats Insanity
If you use the extended schedule and it uses its given schedule, its full attack coincides with your Adamantine Bones. You just need to win initiative.
Now you're grappled. Doesn't stop use of maneuvers. Go ahead with Avalanche of Blades.
Now it should be dead. If it tries to teleport you away, you kill it.

[Fax Celestis]

I could do it with a Battle Sorceror. I'll build it later, though. It'd probably look like BSor 7/AbjCh 5/EKn 2/MagTr 3/UnTr 3 at 20th (for the marathon).

For lowest level? Hm. Spellthief 5.

[barawn]

For lowest level? Hm. Spellthief 5.

Howso? The only thing a Spellthief 5 could do is steal the Balor's resistance. Every single spell like ability is waaay too high for the Spellthief to steal at 5th level.

[Jothki]

Are you ruling out time-accelerated demiplanes here?

[Missing Shoe]

The first thing I thought of was shape changing into a Balor and fighting him with his own sword since it is a (Ex) ability.

Sure, not low leveled, but it would be kind of funny.

[TheGreatJabu]

My vote would be to be a chicken! Level 11 wizard reads Gate scroll, hopes to high heaven to make the caster level check required to use a scroll of a spell w/higher caster level than yourself (or that the mishap STILL summons the solar), summons Solar, prays the Solar beats the balor.

Who here likes to depend heavily on luck?

[Fax Celestis]

Howso? The only thing a Spellthief 5 could do is steal the Balor's resistance. Every single spell like ability is waaay too high for the Spellthief to steal at 5th level.

I don't have to thieve his SLAs. I just have to kill him.

[Indon]

I don't have to thieve his SLAs. I just have to kill him.

All right, I'm curious. How do you use a level 5 Spellthief to kill a Balor?

[brian c]

I could do it with a Battle Sorceror. I'll build it later, though. It'd probably look like BSor 7/AbjCh 5/EKn 2/MagTr 3/UnTr 3 at 20th (for the marathon).

For lowest level? Hm. Spellthief 5.

Yes, please explain. I know you love spellthieves though, so I'm sure you've got something.

Also, AbjCh is Abjurant Champion, EKn is Eldritch Knight, but what are MagTr and UnTr?



For the Marathon challenge, I have a minor rules question: Vital Recovery, from ToB says that you gain 3+level hp every time you recover one or more maneuvers, but only once per encounter. 15 minutes in between Balors means that you should have more than enough time to recover maneuvers with adaptive style and gain 23hp, if each one counts as a different encounter. My question really is then, could you use Vital Recovery in a battle (say, from recovering a maneuver from Swift Recovery) and then in the time between, and then again in the next battle?

[Ramos]

For the Marathon thingy: Wish scroll. Bring 20 Solars out of the higher planes to battle the Balor threat for you. Or Gate-to call a 40 HD Solar. In both instances the called creatures can kill an infinite amount of Balors if they come one by one.

[Fax Celestis]

Yes, please explain. I know you love spellthieves though, so I'm sure you've got something.

Also, AbjCh is Abjurant Champion, EKn is Eldritch Knight, but what are MagTr and UnTr?

I'll explain when I get home from work. MagTr is Magical Trickster, UnTr is Uncanny Trickster.

[barawn]

I don't have to thieve his SLAs. I just have to kill him.

Yes, but unless you've got some amazingly great idea for 10 points of energy resistance, what in the world can a spellthief do at 5th level vs a Balor that a simple rogue couldn't?

[Fax Celestis]

A spellthief has a spell list, and can therefore UMD the spells off that list easier than a rogue could.

[greenknight]

For the marathon, rather than Gating a Solar, Gate a Titan because they can Gate in other Titans. That gives you an infinite Titan loop.

For the single Balor challenge, a 1st level Cleric could do it, if we ignore the standard WBL guidelines. Just have an Orange Ioun Stone and a Bead of Karma (to increase effective caster level), and a scroll of Gate, used to Gate in an Evil Titan to start the Titan Chain above (Evil to overcome DR). Take the Luck Domain to allow a re-roll, and there's an almost 70% of activating the scroll without mishap. With standard wealth, a 5th level Cleric with the Luck Domain has an almost 58% chance of activating the scroll without any of the other items (and can afford the scroll, barely).

[Jacob Orlove]

Or you could, you know, use a Candle of Invocation. It's cheaper, too!

[barawn]

For the marathon, rather than Gating a Solar, Gate a Titan because they can Gate in other Titans. That gives you an infinite Titan loop.

I've said this many, many times before, but that doesn't work the way you want it to. Infinity doesn't work that way. There's no a priori reason to assume there are an unlimited number of titans who have not used Gate that day, because there's no reason to assume that it's a proportionate restriction.

[greenknight]

Or you could, you know, use a Candle of Invocation. It's cheaper, too!

You're right, and that means the solution to either problem is really just any character of 5th level (preferably CE, although any Chaotic would work) who uses the Candle to start a Titan chain.

[EDIT]

There's no a priori reason to assume there are an unlimited number of titans who have not used Gate that day, because there's no reason to assume that it's a proportionate restriction.

You might house rule it that way, but otherwise, I'm correct.

[Jack_Simth]

For the marathon, rather than Gating a Solar, Gate a Titan because they can Gate in other Titans. That gives you an infinite Titan loop.

For the single Balor challenge, a 1st level Cleric could do it, if we ignore the standard WBL guidelines. Just have an Orange Ioun Stone and a Bead of Karma (to increase effective caster level), and a scroll of Gate, used to Gate in an Evil Titan to start the Titan Chain above (Evil to overcome DR). Take the Luck Domain to allow a re-roll, and there's an almost 70% of activating the scroll without mishap. With standard wealth, a 5th level Cleric with the Luck Domain has an almost 58% chance of activating the scroll without any of the other items (and can afford the scroll, barely).

Infinite prep time?

Well, if you don't mind cheese....

Candle of Invocation: Each of these special tapers is dedicated to one of the nine alignments. Simply burning the candle generates a favorable aura for the individual so doing if the candle’s alignment matches that of the character. Characters of the same alignment as the burning candle add a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks while within 30 feet of the flame.

A cleric whose alignment matches the candle’s operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time. He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn. Except in special cases (see below), a candle burns for 4 hours.

In addition, burning a candle also allows the owner to cast a gate spell, the respondent being of the same alignment as the candle, but the taper is immediately consumed in the process. It is possible to extinguish the candle simply by blowing it out, so users often place it in a lantern to protect it from drafts and the like. Doing this doesn’t interfere with its magical properties.

Strong conjuration; CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, gate, creator must be same alignment as candle created; Price 8,400 gp;Weight 1/2 lb.

(Emphasis added).
How high do you have to be to buy one? Regardless..

You get a Lawful Evil candle of Invocation, and use it to Gate in an Efreeti, which you then command you to grant you three wishes - all of which you use for Candles of Invocation (Lawful Evil); it's on the safe list. Two you use to Gate in Pit Fiends just before the Balor arrives, the third you use to Gate in another Efreeti... which you then command to give you three wishes....

Two Pit Fiends ought to be able to handle a single Balor routinely, especially when the Balor comes in at a known time, right? If not, you double up on the trick, and Call four pit fiends at a time. You've got 15 minutes between bouts. Spend a Wish somewhere along the line to pick up a Ring of Invisibility, and stay out of the Balor's True Seeing range, and you're set. Provided you're immortal (play an Elan, and find some way to get that nifty ability which halts your physical deterioration).

[barawn]

You might house rule it that way, but otherwise, I'm correct.

It's not a house rule! Unless there's a specific rule somewhere that says "there are an infinite number of Titans who have not used their Gate ability and are willing to be called and use their Gate ability" (or any number of those restrictions), it's specifically DM's choice.

Adding restrictions onto "infinity" does not equal "infinity." It's indeterminate.

[Piccamo]

It's not a house rule! Unless there's a specific rule somewhere that says "there are an infinite number of Titans who have not used their Gate ability and are willing to be called and use their Gate ability" (or any number of those restrictions), it's specifically DM's choice.

Adding restrictions onto "infinity" does not equal "infinity." It's indeterminate.

Are you sure you know how house rules work?

[barawn]

Are you sure you know how house rules work?

Yes. A house rule is a rule that applies only in a certain location. This isn't one. If you say "Titans can gate in an infinite number of Titans" - that's not true. They only can if the DM is running the game in a world where there are an infinite number of Titans who can gate in other Titans. That applies everywhere.

This isn't a modification to the official rules, because there is no official rule regarding this. The fact that the plane where the Titans are on is infinite on according to the core rules does not imply anything about the number of Titans.

Just because one DM generates a world that contains a stupid infinite loop doesn't mean that anyone else would. And it certainly doesn't imply that every RAW D&D world does.