[3.5/PF] GitP Regulars as Reserve Feats

[Snowbluff]

No, as a cleric you either work for the a deity or for an aspect of the universe. So your acts are divine intervention. Druids work for nature, bards work the magic of entertainment, and sorcerers are an act of nature. Wizards are just corrupt vile criminals.

Oh, okay because I channel jfhddjddhsickoi, so it's okay.

We should get the guardians game fight started. Where is IZ?

[Blackhawk748]

I'm breaking up with LP.

You have my complete and full attention, Draco.

I would reccomend burrowing, but your a Red Dragon so you cant do that

In any case i recommend flying, quickly.

In the realm of the undead, people with cleric levels are generally better equipped.

Yup. Only a Dread Necro beats them out, or very, very specific builds. I prefer my Dread Necro for Minionmancing, its so simple.

[Draconium]

I'm breaking up with LP.

You have my complete and full attention, Draco.

I feel like I should be flattered. And slightly horrified. But no thanks, you can keep your attention off of me. I don't want it sullying my hoard.

Draconium, if you need protection, I give discounts to actual dragons when loaning out dracolich bodyguards.

No thanks, I don't work with undead. (Except Zaydos, he's cool.)

Then he can give them to me. Being a cleric finally has its upsides.

You're a Cleric? Huh, I didn't realize you even had class levels. I though you were just some lovecraftian monstrosity from the Far Realms that had learned to communicate with the Prime Material via anime GIFs. You learn something new everyday, I guess.

Come one come all the the battle of cleric necromancers

I would watch that.

*cough* I'm a wizard, not a cleric. (And definitely not a sorcerer or dread necromancer, or I wouldn't be worried about the opposed charisma check.)

Good for you! Even if Wizards aren't nearly as good at necromancy as Clerics!

well then, as a wizard you probably deserve to lose.

Wait, what does that..?

I'm just talking about the crimes against life, the universe and everything.

No, as a cleric you either work for the a deity or for an aspect of the universe. So your acts are divine intervention. Druids work for nature, bards work the magic of entertainment, and sorcerers are an act of nature. Wizards are just corrupt vile criminals.

Well. I am offended. I'll have you know that, as a Spellhoarding dragon, my Wizard casting is innate! It is as natural to me as Sorcerer casting is to most other dragons! And I'll have you know I'm Lawful, and find your blanket assumption that all Wizards are criminals insulting!

[NeoPhoenix0]

Well. I am offended. I'll have you know that, as a Spellhoarding dragon, my Wizard casting is innate! It is as natural to me as Sorcerer casting is to most other dragons! And I'll have you know I'm Lawful, and find your blanket assumption that all Wizards are criminals insulting!

"a Dragon obsessed with spells, whose knowledge of magic is not intuitive, but carefully learned"

Nope, you're guilty of crimes against the universe. You chose to learn spells, in fact your entire psychology is dependent on your corrupt ways. Better just off you.

[Draconium]

"a Dragon obsessed with spells, whose knowledge of magic is not intuitive, but carefully learned"

Nope, you're guilty of crimes against the universe. You chose to learn spells, in fact your entire psychology is dependent on your corrupt ways. Better just off you.

I may choose to learn spells, but I innately know how to cast them already. That's what it means to have innate spellcasting. Not to mention, that's just fluff, and fluff is mutable - maybe it works differently for me, but you just assume that I use the base fluff.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I may choose to learn spells, but I innately know how to cast them already. That's what it means to have innate spellcasting. Not to mention, that's just fluff, and fluff is mutable - maybe it works differently for me, but you just assume that I use the base fluff.

And that means we are in a place that cannot be discussed at all because there is no ground. This is why you use the base fluff, there can be no arguments otherwise, besides it makes no sense to have wizard casting that is completely innate.

[Snowbluff]

I feel like I should be flattered. And slightly horrified. But no thanks, you can keep your attention off of me. I don't want it sullying my hoard.

Excyse me? I thought you loved me. I am a pure and simple vertebrate, with simple fleshy feelings. Is my attention not good enough for you? I'll have you know that it's the best.

I really need a hug. Give me your blood.

You're a Cleric? Huh, I didn't realize you even had class levels. I though you were just some lovecraftian monstrosity from the Far Realms that had learned to communicate with the Prime Material via anime GIFs. You learn something new everyday, I guess.

Just because one is true doesn't mean that the other isn't. The class levels, which are varied and numerous enough to be an abomination themselves, really help sort out taxes on this side, just like the organs I'm borrowing.

[Segev]

The fact that clerics are better at necromancy has always been a point of irritation for me. Fortunately, gutting a goddess who had been corrupted by evil and sealing the evil portion in an item is a good stopgap. Her mother even thanked me, since the goddess in question went back to being "good" afterwards. Funny how divine beings take having entire portions of their sacred essence amputated, sometimes.

[Zaydos]

I'm just talking about the crimes against life, the universe and everything.

Not all wizard commit such crimes. I mean... I do but... I'm a spellhoarding dragon who enjoys committing crimes against life, the universe, and everything especially Nature. I mean I made half-liches. I MADE HALF-LICHES! That's just a crime against decency, I mean the vitaphilia required Oh and I made giant psychic trees which drains people's life force and force them to guard it as wraiths while it digests their souls. I mean I'm pretty sure nature wants me for several capital offenses.

No, as a cleric you either work for the a deity or for an aspect of the universe. So your acts are divine intervention. Druids work for nature, bards work the magic of entertainment, and sorcerers are an act of nature. Wizards are just corrupt vile criminals.

Wait I have the druid spell-list too and cleric spellcasting (thank you MOTHER) does that make me natural?

[NeoPhoenix0]

Not all wizard commit such crimes. I mean... I do but... I'm a spellhoarding dragon who enjoys committing crimes against life, the universe, and everything especially Nature. I mean I made half-liches. I MADE HALF-LICHES! That's just a crime against decency, I mean the vitaphilia required Oh and I made giant psychic trees which drains people's life force and force them to guard it as wraiths while it digests their souls. I mean I'm pretty sure nature wants me for several capital offenses.

Their spellcasting itself is a crime against the universe.

Wait I have the druid spell-list too and cleric spellcasting (thank you MOTHER) does that make me natural?

maybe

[illyahr]

Can we all at least agree that necrocarnum is an abomination only for the most utterly depraved?

[Red Fel]

Can we all at least agree that necrocarnum is an abomination only for the most utterly depraved?

Now you're just being ridiculous. Necrocarnum is for everybody.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Can we all at least agree that necrocarnum is an abomination only for the most utterly depraved?

naw, It takes a lot of guts to admit you don't got enough soul so necrocartnates are AOK, and necrocarnum zombies are just meat puppets possessed by the power of soul.

[Blackhawk748]

Can we all at least agree that necrocarnum is an abomination only for the most utterly depraved?

As an upstanding Neutral Necromancer i completely agree. Necrocarnum is one of the few things i put at "Auto Evil"

naw, It takes a lot of guts to admit you don't got enough soul so necrocartnates are AOK, and necrocarnum zombies are just meat puppets possessed by the power of soul.

And are Intelligent, unlike normal meat puppets zombies.

[illyahr]

naw, It takes a lot of guts to admit you don't got enough soul so necrocartnates are AOK, and necrocarnum zombies are just meat puppets possessed by the power of soul.

How is twisting the souls of the innocent for personal power not the definition of evil? That's, like, textbook Evil right there.

[Red Fel]

That's, like, textbook Evil right there.

Sure is! Chapter 3, page 27. Ooh, there's even a little diagram! Knife goes here, soul goes here... As easy as murdering pie!

[NeoPhoenix0]

How is twisting the souls of the innocent for personal power not the definition of evil? That's, like, textbook Evil right there.

Evil is small scale and only relevant to people, I'm talking about crimes against the universe itself here.

[illyahr]

Evil is small scale and only relevant to people, I'm talking about crimes against the universe itself here.

Sooooo Chaos? I'm kinda confused now.

[Draconium]

Oh, yeah, I almost forgot. Neo's uber-Chaotic, isn't he? He's probably just screwing with us right now.

[Snowbluff]

The fact that clerics are better at necromancy has always been a point of irritation for me.

They're literally made to deal with undead.

Oh, yeah, I almost forgot. Neo's uber-Chaotic, isn't he? He's probably just screwing with us right now.

I'm more concerned with blue or orange.

Also, where is your blood, honey?

[NeoPhoenix0]

Oh, yeah, I almost forgot. Neo's uber-Chaotic, isn't he? He's probably just screwing with us right now.

Wizards should stop claiming to be able to control the forces that can tear the universe and its rules assunder.

They're literally made to deal with undead.


I'm more concerned with blue or orange.

I think I lean more towards blue but overall I'm undecided on the issue as I haven't heard a good case for either yet.

[Snowbluff]

I think I lean more towards blue but overall I'm undecided on the issue as I haven't heard a good case for either yet.

Orange has been working out lately.

[Zaydos]

Their spellcasting itself is a crime against the universe.

Eh, not really. It's just working within natural law. It's no more a crime against the universe than understanding calculus. Assuming it's truly Vancian it's mainly understanding calculus in a world which has passed beyond science back into the age of fantasy.

maybe

But, but... I perverted nature to create undead treants. Zombified plants. I am a blight upon reality

Can we all at least agree that necrocarnum is an abomination only for the most utterly depraved?

I made necrocarnum dragons, I will say the process was quite painful... for them.

Evil is small scale and only relevant to people, I'm talking about crimes against the universe itself here.

That's the thing, though. Evil can go so much further than the small scale. On the cosmic scale the battle between Law and Chaos boils down to the battle between Good and Evil. When either swings into control it perverts to Evil and it is that, when Law or Chaos turns to Evil that the balance needs to be restored. The Blood War contains Evil on a cosmic scale, by diverting it to the conflict of Law and Chaos, but ultimately that shows the flaw in believing that Law and Chaos is the more cosmic conflict. It is the immediate one, but on a cosmic scale it is a distraction. It serves first and foremost to divide Evil and prevent it from destroying the multiverse.

Though really to declare something like wizardry as a whole a crime against the universe requires a very narrow minded view or one that ignores that in a world like that of standard D&D fluff supernatural is not the same as unnatural. It can be used for crimes against reality, but is not in itself a crime against it, it's too fundamental to reality. No more than applied chemistry is a crime against reality (at which point you cannot bake among other things). It's no more a crime than the knowledge to start fires. Or even divine spellcasting, it's still the exploitation of natural law (in this case the one that allows deities to send you power).

Typically though that's the speech of a bitter sorcerer, Chaotic with Evil leanings if it's coupled with declaring Evil a minor human scale problem

>>
Prefers sorcerers' mechanics to wizards'.
<<

[Marlowe]

Spoiler

Show

[NeoPhoenix0]

Orange has been working out lately.

but is orange cute?

Typically though that's the speech of a bitter sorcerer, Chaotic with Evil leanings if it's coupled with declaring Evil a minor human scale problem

I never said human scale, besides good is the new kid on the block. This whole good vs evil thing is a far newer concept, I'm sure the battle between law and chaos will outlast it.

[Zaydos]

I never said human scale, besides good is the new kid on the block. This whole good vs evil thing is a far newer concept, I'm sure the battle between law and chaos will outlast it.

It isn't a newer concept, though. Take the great war between the Wind Dukes and the Queen of Chaos. The first war of Law vs Chaos. The eladrin, spirits of Chaos, fought for the Wind Dukes, because in truth even that war was between Good and Evil. The terminology grows confused at the beginning of things because of unfathomable reasons*. You have but to look at the Twin Serpents Jazirian and Ahriman and their function in the creation of the Great Wheel to realize that Good v Evil is every bit as old as Law v Chaos. For this was the formation of the multiverse, the first birth of Law, and the first birth of Chaos**, but Jazirian and Ahriman were already spirits of Good and Evil and their conflict was the first conflict in the planes, both spirits of Law but fighting over Good and Evil.

Law v Chaos is actually the younger conflict, despite what the greybeards say***, just look at the yugoloths who are perhaps the first of the planar races made by the baernoloths who predate the gods, and I might add are a force of natural evil that dates back to the formation of the current multiverse, who to preserve the purity of their Evil rid themselves of Law and Chaos both and thus created the fiends of Law and Chaos and the greatest conflict of Law v Chaos. Actually of the primal forces Chaos is the youngest as it alone played no role in the creation of all things... Well unless you go with the draconic version where all things were created by the Ninefold Dragon Io who represents all 9 alignments in equality and who... immediately fell into a conflict of Lawful Good vs Lawful Evil...

As for outlasting... remember Good v Evil won't end until after the Blood War does. The Blood War is the last great hold out of Law v Chaos.

Also a people only scale is just as wrong as a human only one. Even if you count all thinking creatures in people the scale that they influence is the entire multiverse. After all it is through them that all the great conflicts are waged. Now if you draw the line at anything less than all, you find yourself with Good and Evil still influencing things on the largest multiversal scale. The twin serpents. Bahamut and Tiamat. The Baernoloths. The 7th Heaven of Mount Celestia. Actually the last alone disproves that Good v Evil is purely 'people' as it's a discorporate force of absolute Good.

Spoiler: Breaking character for a more in depth look at things.

Show

The Law v Chaos conflict in D&D starts at the very beginning of the game line, but drawing alignment from (according to Gygax) Three Hearts and Three Lions it is literally Good v Evil with Law and Chaos defined with the same terms used for Good and Evil in games including them. Looking into the cosmological fluff of D&D from after that you do get the great war of Law and Chaos in the Rod in Seven Pieces or whatever it was called again, which was originally referenced before Good and Evil were included in the game and had Lawful Evil creatures on the Chaos side and Chaotic Good on the Lawful side which weakens the idea that it is really Law v Chaos. Then you have Planescape. I love Planescape, I sycophantically adore it, and I love that it emphasizes Law v Chaos over Good v Evil but all the earliest conflicts even in that go Good v Evil then Law v Chaos. I mean Hellbound the box set on the Blood War reveals that the yugoloths to maintain purity of Evil created the tanar'ri and the baatezu. The post-planescape 2e book on Hell makes Asmodeus the greatest of the deities, almost comically inept for the power he is supposed to have (in that if he has the power to match all the gods but is playing games with the reckoning he's pretty much just Orcus on his Throne) but also gives a creation to the multiverse which has as notable players twin serpents of Law who have the first conflict... Good v Evil. 3.x changes this some with the introduction of the obyriths as a truly primal fiend of Chaos and making the Queen of Chaos (from said Rod of Seven Pieces war) an obyrith... however she used the tanar'ri still in that war and it also reaffirms in the same book that the Eladrin were on the Law side and that the Baatezu were not (in that it keeps the first contact between the Baatezu and Tanar'ri as the start of the Blood War). Then in the next book in that subline they reinvent the origin of the Baatezu and the Blood War as being an offshoot of the primal war between (Lawful) Good and Chaotic Evil. With Lawful Evil being the mere result of taint from contact with Evil. So while the Planescape books say in the narration that the conflict between Law and Chaos is oldest what they present as evidence does not prove it but instead shows the opposite. Even the Io version of the creation story devolves into Lawful Good vs Lawful Evil as the first conflict. Leaving Good vs Evil as the older conflict, usually Lawful Good vs Lawful Evil.

Also seriously why is Chaos never involved in the creation story???

*oD&D and B/C/E/M/I had an alignment system where Law = Good and Chaos = Evil by AD&D and its descendants' standards, so the RL reason is easy but sticking in character above.

**Chaos in its original real world meaning would be what this was born from, but Chaos in D&D != Chaos in Greek myth.

***I referenced the Gates of Hell book I feel dirty

Edit: As a note making this post made me sad because I actually looked at how Law v Chaos and Good v Evil played out in D&D and the idea that Law v Chaos is the deeper one is a cool idea it just doesn't actually pan out as written except with Planescapes factions which bring Law v Chaos to a scale of people and in so doing makes it a cosmic issue.

[NeoPhoenix0]

don't give me that bias propaganda, the mutliverse was around well before those two where even an idea. They are just among the oldest beings alive today so like all deities they have made propaganda (some of which they probably don't even remember is propaganda and others have attributed other propaganda to them. This is true for every single deity alive and active in the eyes of mortals today.

edit: though it is possible they helped give it its current shape.

edit2: you might be able to tell i prefer certain sources, and don't really care about the definition of law and chaos before 3rd edition. Also, a vast majority of fluff is written from perspective.

[Segev]

They're literally made to deal with undead.

To combat them, perhaps, but it irks me that to really control them, the more efficient path is through kowtowing to a "higher" power. Bah. True power is CLAIMED, and the true minionmancer answers to no insecure despot from whom he must beg his power.

But, if you want something done right...steal the divine power yourself. The worst part is, going Ur Priest doesn't actually make you all that much better than staying straight Necromancer. Well, unless you manage an early entry trick, I suppose, and can get 3rd level spells before 5th ECL.

From what anime is this? I don't recognize it.

[Elxir_Breauer]

This has to be one of the more entertaining threads I've ever been a part of. Unfortunately I have nothing to add to the debate and must make another attempt at a Reserve Feat...

Clarity of the Chaotic Mind [Reserve Feat] (NeoPheonix0)

Prerequisites: Caster level 5th, ability to cast at least one spell with the Chaos descriptor, must be of a Chaotic alignment (CG, CN or CE).

Benefit: As long as you have a 3rd level or higher Chaos spell available to cast, you may create a Protection from Law effect on yourself for a number of rounds equal to the spell level of your highest level Chaos spell available to cast.

In addition, you cast Chaos spells at +1 caster level.

[unseenmage]

Everyone's discussing Clerics and Wizards and such meanwhile my artificer extraordinaire self quietly whistles a merry tune whilst shredding the flesh of his enemies and recombining it into lovely decorative golems...