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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    I am, of course, referring to the cliche moment in a story where the villain or villainesse offers a position working for them, possibly also a romantic relationship, and other assorted goodies, if the Hero(or "Hero" I suppose) will come over to their side.
    Because I can't be the only person who thought that would make a good read right?

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    Lord Raziere's Avatar

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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    If you can stomach anime/manga, medieval politics and economics and the "villain" being a cute anime girl, then Maoyu is basically this premise but with more "I can stop the war peacefully if we just do this complex socio-economic stuff."
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


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    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    Arguably, if they're willing to switch sides and join the villain they were never really a hero in the first place.

    Or do you mean a double-agent gambit where they "pretend" to join Evil but are still heroic?

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    Lord Raziere's Avatar

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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Arguably, if they're willing to switch sides and join the villain they were never really a hero in the first place.

    Or do you mean a double-agent gambit where they "pretend" to join Evil but are still heroic?
    No I think its more like "hm, maybe it WOULD be better if we worked together by cooperation and I can influence the villain from within to be a better person and thus by cooperation we truly change the world for the better rather than villain change the world for the worse" which y'know probably not the best move realistically speaking but it makes for a good romance/redemption plot.
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    Chimera

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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Arguably, if they're willing to switch sides and join the villain they were never really a hero in the first place.

    Or do you mean a double-agent gambit where they "pretend" to join Evil but are still heroic?
    I mean that they're considered by everyone to be the "Hero" that's going to save everyone. Whether or not they live up to that depends on what happens and why, I guess. Although it would be hard to fault a downtrodden, always messed with, always injured hero who suddenly everyone cared about because they could do something for them, for accepting the genuine offer of being wanted by the villain.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    Quote Originally Posted by moonfly7 View Post
    I am, of course, referring to the cliche moment in a story where the villain or villainesse offers a position working for them, possibly also a romantic relationship, and other assorted goodies, if the Hero(or "Hero" I suppose) will come over to their side.
    Because I can't be the only person who thought that would make a good read right?
    I believe that there are a couple of comic books where heroes accept Darkseid's help, offers etc.

    Although I don't think he has ever offered them a romantic relationship to seal the deal.

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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    Quote Originally Posted by moonfly7 View Post
    I am, of course, referring to the cliche moment in a story where the villain or villainesse offers a position working for them, possibly also a romantic relationship, and other assorted goodies, if the Hero(or "Hero" I suppose) will come over to their side.
    Because I can't be the only person who thought that would make a good read right?

    The problem with most villains is that they are evil, and as such, can't be expected to keep their promises. And even if they would keep their word, the average hero doesn't like torturing and killing, so ...

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    OrcBarbarianGirl

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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    The player can do something like this at the end of the main quest for the Dawnguard DLC in Skyrim. The bad guy gives one last chance to surrender a macguffin to him before the final boss fight.

    Then he totally does a Dark Helmet and fights you anyway.
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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    Wildbow has several variations on this; it also pops up in Practical Guide to Evil under a few guises. It also appears in Justice League, for example, in the Justice Lords episodes.

    It'll generally show up in literature with strong humanist, "everyone has a point" sentiment.
    Last edited by uncool; 2020-06-06 at 09:06 PM.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    Quote Originally Posted by moonfly7 View Post
    I am, of course, referring to the cliche moment in a story where the villain or villainesse offers a position working for them, possibly also a romantic relationship, and other assorted goodies, if the Hero(or "Hero" I suppose) will come over to their side.
    Because I can't be the only person who thought that would make a good read right?
    Its a TV show, but Ash vs Evil Dead S1 ends with Ash taking the deal Ruby offers him
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    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    This is basically what happens in Watchmen, right?

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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    If I recall, Paper Mario: The 1000 Year Door offers the player that option at the climax of the game.

    Also, Undertale sort of has it as an option.

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    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    In Overlord we sort of have this. We have this legendary hero adventurer Momon who is by far the biggest baddest toughest hero in the entire kingdom. Then in comes the big bad Elder Lich Ainz Ool Gown who has taken over the city. He marches in with his undead army, some little kid is about to be killed, when Momon shows up! Huzzah! We are saved! Momon admits he cant kill Ainz and could only handle a few of his top tier guys but the battle would shatter the city, so ainz makes the offer, "Then join me, be my enforcer. You keep the city from rebelling, and that keeps me from killing everyone who gets in my way." Momon basically goes, "Ok, i see I have no choice, but if you go all undead lich king evil on the city, i WILL destroy you!" And they team up. Of course, the issue here is
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    Momon and Ainz are the same person, momon is a character he was playing to gather information and build up a heroic reputation up till now, the entire thing was a play to settle down the peasants and ensure they wouldnt riot
    But you know, other than that one minor quibble, its basically what you asked about.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    Spoiler: Major Jojo spoilers!
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    In Part 7, the villain offers to resurrect the hero's friend in exchange for letting him win. The hero breaks down and very nearly accepts, but demands proof that the offer is genuine. Of course the villain was planning to murder the hero the second he got what he wanted, so the deal falls through.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    On consideration there is an obvious example (for a given value of hero and villian):

    Jedi hero Anakin Skywalker joined Chancellor Palpatine to restore peace and order to the galaxy and save the life of his wife.

    With the exception of his wife still dying (not the Chancellor's fault) it worked out well enough for him.

    There is even a novel of this - and other novels dealing with the aftermath.

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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    If we're talking comic books as well...

    Birthright by Image Comics. Though considering the situation, Mickey had every reason to take the deal.
    Don't know your name but bring the pain.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    Quote Originally Posted by EggKookoo View Post
    This is basically what happens in Watchmen, right?
    Yes.

    Also seconding the Star Wars example.

    Another example, spoiler alert... : in Puella Magi Madoka Magica, The main character allies with the Dark Magical Girl who has a habit of shooting the poor fluffy mascot into pieces. The main character also does evetually make the wish she was not supposed to make. This is just not a happy thing for the villain.
    Last edited by Vahnavoi; 2020-06-07 at 09:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    This happens in the first episode of Galavant. I dont want to explain any more, because it is glorious and you should watch the whole show.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    If you count fake acceptance to either spy ore cause problems this list https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...n/FakeDefector has some.

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    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    Not a book, but Season 5 of Angel.

    Basically, the bad guys, Wolfram & Hart, offer to let Angel and his crew take over the LA office and run it as they like. They use this to try and do good (being as they are Rogue Do-Gooders), but they realize that the Bad Guys were keeping them busy.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    If you want a rationale, it isn't very hard to see,
    Stop and think it over pal,
    The guy sure looks like plant food to me!

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    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph View Post
    If you want a rationale, it isn't very hard to see,
    Stop and think it over pal,
    The guy sure looks like plant food to me!
    Even moreso in the original director's cut.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    Not a book, but Season 5 of Angel.

    Basically, the bad guys, Wolfram & Hart, offer to let Angel and his crew take over the LA office and run it as they like. They use this to try and do good (being as they are Rogue Do-Gooders), but they realize that the Bad Guys were keeping them busy.
    Dang forgot about that one. Yeah it was awesome. It was both a distraction and also a temptation. Baby steps to the dark side. I cant remember how close it came to working as I know angel and crew setup a trap to make it look like he was falling hard and had a falling out with his team to setup for the series finale, but I cant remember if they always realized what wolfram was up to or if they figured it out at some point when the moral choices got too tricky.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Dang forgot about that one. Yeah it was awesome. It was both a distraction and also a temptation. Baby steps to the dark side. I cant remember how close it came to working as I know angel and crew setup a trap to make it look like he was falling hard and had a falling out with his team to setup for the series finale, but I cant remember if they always realized what wolfram was up to or if they figured it out at some point when the moral choices got too tricky.
    Neither to memory - Angel was granted a vision which directed him to an evil group, without the knowledge of his team he worked to infiltrate that group so they could be eliminated. The team turned on him - he revealed his plan, and the team went along with it despite not knowing if they were being played or not.

    Wolfram and Hart also were upfront about the deal - the heroes could run the operation however they liked, but if the business went under they would merely re-franchise without the heroes running it. To memory they actually had no particular evil plan afoot.

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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    Didn't this happen in the movie Dodgeball?

    The main character takes $1,000,000 from the bad guy, bets it all on his team, and then buys out the bad guy's stock?
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    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Neither to memory - Angel was granted a vision which directed him to an evil group, without the knowledge of his team he worked to infiltrate that group so they could be eliminated. The team turned on him - he revealed his plan, and the team went along with it despite not knowing if they were being played or not.

    Wolfram and Hart also were upfront about the deal - the heroes could run the operation however they liked, but if the business went under they would merely re-franchise without the heroes running it. To memory they actually had no particular evil plan afoot.
    I remember a scene where we get to see a huge standoff in the office while the WRH "aide" guy is watching through the glass and it turned out to be an illusion to trick him. Im guessing that was the point where angel came clean about his plan and they went along with it?
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    Quote Originally Posted by EggKookoo View Post
    This is basically what happens in Watchmen, right?
    Not exactly.
    Spoiler
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    The 'villain' reveals his plan to save the world by enacting a disaster to make people work together against a fake external threat, then reveals that it's already happened, and points out that if the 'heroes' publicly expose his deception the world will most probably be plunged into nuclear war.

    They didn't cooperate or help the villain, but they do agree to stay quiet about what they've learned for the sake of the planet. Except one who refuses to cooperate, and commits suicide / is killed by one of the heroes to ensure his silence. (It's... complicated.)
    Last edited by Caledonian; 2020-06-07 at 01:41 PM.
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    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caledonian View Post
    Not exactly.
    Eh, semantics. They cooperate by agreeing not to expose the situation. And it's not just that they can't stop him (by virtue of timing), he actually convinces them that his way is right. Well, except that one hold out. But even the villain doesn't silence the hold out -- one of the heroes who has come around to his point of view does it of his own accord. If that's not cooperating, I don't know what is.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    The Dresden Files series has some examples.
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    The most obvious of which is when Harry Dresden takes the offer extended to him by Mab, Queen of Air and Darkness, of power in exchange for service. Dresden needs power, a lot of it, as quickly as possible, and he decides Mab is the least evil of the options available to him.

    Ultimately it becomes clear that Mab isn't truly a villain. She's a very complex antihero, and an extraordinarily dangerous one. But Dresden didn't know that when he made the deal.
    Alignments are objective. Right and wrong are not.
    Good: Will act to prevent harm to others even at personal cost.
    Evil: Will seek personal benefit even if it causes harm to others.
    Law: General, universal, and consistent trump specific, local, and inconsistent.
    Chaos: Specific, local, and inconsistent trump general, universal, and consistent.

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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Any books where the Hero actually accepts the villains offer?

    Did you mean antagonist instead of villain? Because there are lots of stories featuring villainous characters working with the heroic protagonists in a lot of media.
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