Naruto IX: [Epilogue Intensifies]

[LaZodiac]

Boruto and Naruto can't figure out Boruto's rasengan is wind or lightning based (technically it was a retcon and I can't recall which of the two they swapped too for the vanishing rasengan.)

I have to imagine Vanishing Rasengan is wind element. It feels appropriate.

...It should be wind based. the rasengan can't be combined with lightning. both Minato and Kakashi failed to combine it with lightning, and Kakashi made the Chidori specifically to make a jutsu much like it that CAN be used like the Rasengan but in way so it can be used for lightning.

though I can see why Minato was so insistent on Rasengan first: given the many elemental variations that Naruto uses with the Rasengan like fire, lava, wind, I think even water at some point, its clearly the more elementally flexible of the two techniques. but the Chidori is more flexible in shape.

This made me realize Boruto is gonna make a Lightning Rasengan or something.

[Ramza00]

...It should be wind based. the rasengan can't be combined with lightning. both Minato and Kakashi failed to combine it with lightning, and Kakashi made the Chidori specifically to make a jutsu much like it that CAN be used like the Rasengan but in way so it can be used for lightning.

Just because the two old hokages failed at this , doesn't mean a Genin can't do it. Remember which manga / anime you are watching

[Lord Raziere]

Just because the two old hokages failed at this , doesn't mean a Genin can't do it. Remember which manga / anime you are watching

Hey, technically THREE Hokages failed at this, Naruto didn't achieve it either.

as for boruto succeeding, well clearly that is due to Jogan hax. eyes grant unfair advantage to see how chakra works after all, probably even more than sharingan.

[LaZodiac]

Hey, technically THREE Hokages failed at this, Naruto didn't achieve it either.

as for boruto succeeding, well clearly that is due to Jogan hax. eyes grant unfair advantage to see how chakra works after all, probably even more than sharingan.

I mean that and the bunny alien DNA that's currently infesting him.

[Lord Raziere]

I mean that and the bunny alien DNA that's currently infesting him.

I mean.....bunny alien DNA isn't really all that specific, Byakugan, Sharingan, Rinnegan, Dead Bone Pulse, wood release, and so on are all just fragments of bunny alien DNA spread throughout the Naruto world called "kekkei genkai". its just that somehow Naruto's Uzumaki genes and Hinata's Byakugan genes somehow ended up making the Jogan resurface again, which is an eye that an Otsutsuki can have, just like all the others.

I assume you mean that mark he got being the other source of bunny alien DNA. man and Rater thought that Boruto and Sarada's child was going to be stupid overpowered before! there's no telling what a Jogan/Sharingan/Uzumaki/other bunny alien DNA stuff added in will result in, because the genetics of Naruto seem to be some form of fragmentation and mixing that results in more powerful people from bloodlines being combined. if it just results in the Rinnegan, that might be a low-ball for whats possible at this point.

[khadgar567]

I mean.....bunny alien DNA isn't really all that specific, Byakugan, Sharingan, Rinnegan, Dead Bone Pulse, wood release, and so on are all just fragments of bunny alien DNA spread throughout the Naruto world called "kekkei genkai". its just that somehow Naruto's Uzumaki genes and Hinata's Byakugan genes somehow ended up making the Jogan resurface again, which is an eye that an Otsutsuki can have, just like all the others.

I assume you mean that mark he got being the other source of bunny alien DNA. man and Rater thought that Boruto and Sarada's child was going to be stupid overpowered before! there's no telling what a Jogan/Sharingan/Uzumaki/other bunny alien DNA stuff added in will result in, because the genetics of Naruto seem to be some form of fragmentation and mixing that results in more powerful people from bloodlines being combined. if it just results in the Rinnegan, that might be a low-ball for whats possible at this point.

If byakugan can skip generation then borutos kid gonna deffinetly have rinnegan back then add jogan to mix we have strong enough bease for game breaker. but i think kamma gonna be purrify borutos bunny DNA thus we get closest think to og ootsuki member in power level.

[Rodin]

Just watched the relevant episode of the anime to confirm - Boruto's Rasengan is Lightning-style. I assume they forgot it was supposed to be difficult.

Also, are we not doing elemental affinities anymore? Naruto shouldn't be capable of Fire Rasengan, it's not in his chakra nature. Ditto lava, which is a kekkei genkai technique that nobody outside the Mizukage's bloodline can do. Boruto can do a water one, because he apparently has THREE chakra natures which should in turn give him two kekkei genkais.

All of this is stuff I think was forgtten about immediately after it was introduced.

[Lord Raziere]

Just watched the relevant episode of the anime to confirm - Boruto's Rasengan is Lightning-style. I assume they forgot it was supposed to be difficult.

Also, are we not doing elemental affinities anymore? Naruto shouldn't be capable of Fire Rasengan, it's not in his chakra nature. Ditto lava, which is a kekkei genkai technique that nobody outside the Mizukage's bloodline can do. Boruto can do a water one, because he apparently has THREE chakra natures which should in turn give him two kekkei genkais.

All of this is stuff I think was forgtten about immediately after it was introduced.

affinities have only ever determined your starting type of elemental chakra that you use, the element you can learn easiest. it never blocked people off from learning the other four/five basic natures. Kakashi's elemental affinity is lightning but he used water release when fighting zabusza.

Naruto can use lava release because the five tail jinchuuriki can use lava release, and naruto got the chakra of all tailed beasts sealed inside him during the Fourth ninja war.

so as long as natures Boruto wields are the basic five, they do not require an affinity to learn, its just harder than learning the one you do have affinity with. so all him wielding three elements means is that he qualifies for Jounin, since jounin rank requires you to master two basic elemental releases.

its only the combined elemental that require bloodlines, in some cases specific tailed beasts sealed inside you, to use. the six tails granted Han power over boil release, Gaara got sand, things like that.

[Rater202]

New chapter of Boruto by the way!

Bort and friends end up not being able to defeat the end game baddy. Who woulda guessed! Sasuke is also out cold.

also... he uses a lava move, and Sarada calls it acid for the rest of the chapter despite it being... lava. Sarada please.

To be fair, apprently Lava Release is capable of creating acid.

Depending on which version of Lava release your'e talking about: IIRC The Mizukage'versions and and Four Tail's version are written with differant characters, indicating that there may be a differance ebtween them.

Just watched the relevant episode of the anime to confirm - Boruto's Rasengan is Lightning-style. I assume they forgot it was supposed to be difficult.

Also, are we not doing elemental affinities anymore? Naruto shouldn't be capable of Fire Rasengan, it's not in his chakra nature. Ditto lava, which is a kekkei genkai technique that nobody outside the Mizukage's bloodline can do. Boruto can do a water one, because he apparently has THREE chakra natures which should in turn give him two kekkei genkais.

All of this is stuff I think was forgotten about immediately after it was introduced.

1: Having a wind affinity doesn't mean that you can't use a fire technique.

2: The elemental combination Kekei Genkai are specifically the ability to have two powerful elemental natures and then combine them into a third. Merely having two or more strong affinities isn't enough.

3: Naruto gained affinities to all five elemental natures, and the unique/advanced Chakra Natures of the Tailed Beasts when Obito ripped out bits and pieces of Shukaku and Gyuki from Madara and gave them to Naruto, thus making Naruto a technical Ten-Tails host. Between that and his previous mastery of shape and nature manipulation, the affinity for Yin-Yang Release he got from the Six Path's Yang Chakra, and Six Paths Sage Mode, he can basically do whatever the hell he wants.

Since his prosthetic arm is derived from Hashirama's cells, he should also be capable of wood release.

[LaZodiac]

I mean.....bunny alien DNA isn't really all that specific, Byakugan, Sharingan, Rinnegan, Dead Bone Pulse, wood release, and so on are all just fragments of bunny alien DNA spread throughout the Naruto world called "kekkei genkai". its just that somehow Naruto's Uzumaki genes and Hinata's Byakugan genes somehow ended up making the Jogan resurface again, which is an eye that an Otsutsuki can have, just like all the others.

I assume you mean that mark he got being the other source of bunny alien DNA. man and Rater thought that Boruto and Sarada's child was going to be stupid overpowered before! there's no telling what a Jogan/Sharingan/Uzumaki/other bunny alien DNA stuff added in will result in, because the genetics of Naruto seem to be some form of fragmentation and mixing that results in more powerful people from bloodlines being combined. if it just results in the Rinnegan, that might be a low-ball for whats possible at this point.

I mean you don't have to specify blood line limits, all chakra is descended from the fruit that the the moon rabbit demon mom ate. The eyeballs are a more direct connection though, you're correct on that, but I don't think it's necessary to say bloodline mixes to get weird chakra styles are directly a moon rabbit thing.

To be fair, apprently Lava Release is capable of creating acid.

Depending on which version of Lava release your'e talking about: IIRC The Mizukage'versions and and Four Tail's version are written with differant characters, indicating that there may be a differance ebtween them.1: Having a wind affinity doesn't mean that you can't use a fire technique.

2: The elemental combination Kekei Genkai are specifically the ability to have two powerful elemental natures and then combine them into a third. Merely having two or more strong affinities isn't enough.

3: Naruto gained affinities to all five elemental natures, and the unique/advanced Chakra Natures of the Tailed Beasts when Obito ripped out bits and pieces of Shukaku and Gyuki from Madara and gave them to Naruto, thus making Naruto a technical Ten-Tails host. Between that and his previous mastery of shape and nature manipulation, the affinity for Yin-Yang Release he got from the Six Path's Yang Chakra, and Six Paths Sage Mode, he can basically do whatever the hell he wants.

Since his prosthetic arm is derived from Hashirama's cells, he should also be capable of wood release.

I mean go check out the raws and see which it is because I have no idea. The art looks acid-y so that's clearly the intent, I just think it's weird to have lava release to make... acid.

[Lord Raziere]

I mean go check out the raws and see which it is because I have no idea. The art looks acid-y so that's clearly the intent, I just think it's weird to have lava release to make... acid.

Yeah, I've looked up lava release before, its just incredibly flexible for no apparent reason, like wood release. it just plain sees a lot more use than most of the other two-element releases we know of.

meanwhile, do we get similar levels of use for things like Storm or Boil Release? No. we even have the concept of kekkei toutas and yet we only got one of those, there are some seriously underused elemental releases as well the concept of toutas being underused in general.

[Rater202]

Volcanic eruptions release sulfur dioxide in the air.

Sulfur dioxide reacts when exposed to sunlight and mixes and matches with other particles in the air to become H2SO4.

Which is to say, sulferic acid is a natural byproduct of volcanoes.

Lava release allowing for the creation and manipulation of acid is surprisingly well researched.

[Aotrs Commander]

Bleakbane Catches Up With Naruto

Might be a bit abbreviated today, since it's really a bit late (I got side-tracked with rules-stuff again...)

You stop that cheering right now!

A Fabricated Past

So Hagoromo has to fight his brother, because Kaguya put him under mind control, kills him with e pseudo-chidori, gets his manky-yo-yo and rinnegan, uses the REvivify scroll the toads just gave him on Hamura and they fight Kaguya apparently for months with devastaing effect until they seal her up with Catastrophic Planetary Devastation which is the coolest jutsu name ever, and then Hamura teleports to the moon, presumably becase he doens't need to breathe in space.

Zetsu blithers a bit about how he manipulated everyone (and It Is Foreshadowed that Bad Space Beings will eventually come, presumably laying the groundwokr for Boruto? (I obviously don't know?)), but really the funniest part of this is how Madara cunningly set himself up to self-resurrect with a delayed action Izanagi, because of course he did, that's just so Madara!

That about wraps up the flashback!

Finally! Boss-fight!

The No. 1 Most Unpredictable Ninja

So, Naruto, apparently having a breather while listening to Black Zetsu rabbit on for ages, just breaks free of the jutsu and prepares a plan. His hadow-clone with Sakura and Naruto, uses the time to slap some healing on Obito, because why not.

Kaguya is immune to jutsu (where's those damn Orb spells when you need 'em now, with their SR: No, eh, guys?) so Naruto comes up with a plan, as they need to distract her and Naruto is going to use That Jutsu, something hes been practising more than the rasangan.

The plan is put into action - Sasuke tried and fails with Amaratsu, and the Naruto summons a load of shadow clones and...

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Uses Sexy Jutsu Reverse Harem!

And it WORKS and Kaguya gets clocked in the face!

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Oh, my lichemaster.

I even sort of knew it was coming (sadly, it'd have been even fuinnier otherwise), but even so, the excution is pitch-perfect; the mustic suddenly just going, leaving the reaction of stunned silence even more underlined, Sakura's reaction is priceless ofthe point where she's candidly admitted that might work on her that Kaguya would fall for *Kaggy gets punched in the face*

Worth everything so far for that pause-the-DVD-laughing-too-much moment.


Sadly, despite naruto and Sasuke getting within about two inches of sealing her away,she shifts them to an ice realm and then proceeds to split Naruto and Sasuke up.

Meanwhile, Obito recovers and is broguht up to speed. He soon has a plan - using Sakura's chakra as additional fuel, he can use Kamui to piggy-back through Kaguya's dimension hopping so they can go save the belaguered Naruto (and it will inevitably cost him his life), but as Kakashi says, if tbhety fail they're all ead anyway, so what the hell, right?

Outside, the for Hokages meet back up to compare notes, around the lower half of Madara. Tobirams is all for some necromancy and interrogation (clearly wisest of the hokages), when a load of chakra expldoes out of Madara are you kidding me, is he actually resurrecting himself, that'd be hilariously overpower, wait, no it's just Hagoromo. Well, frankly, if anyone is allowed to be that HAX, it's that guy.

So, Hagoromo has shown up to...

Ninshu: The Ninja Creed

... Exposit in flashbacks to the hokage about how he made ninsu and stuff.

Are you FREAKING kidding me?

In the MIDDLE OF THE FINAL BOSS-FIGHT?!?!

You couldn't have put this in ZETSU's flashback, or at least BEFORE the final boss fight and got it all out the way in one go?

*skulldesk*

Nah, I can't be too mad, though, the sexy jutsu thing was still way too funny, sorry.

So it is with some laughing-at-how-badly-paced this is we instead spead half an hour watching a dude con another dude into repairing a bridge for half an hour.

(Aside: -27 points for Hagoromo's missus never being seen on-screen and being thrown under the bus in the course of three sentences. No, sorry guys, the lady that caught the eye of Hagoromo kind of ought to have gotten better treatment than that, considering, especially since Kaggy is the man villain and I think that was a badly wasted opportunity.)



But that's Naruto. Like I said earlier today in the general anime thread, it handles character death better than basically anything else I've ever come across... Natural 20 on character death, natural 1 on pacing...!

[Ramza00]

Natural 20 on character death, natural 1 on pacing...!

This is my problem with Naruto Filler in the Anime for it completely ruins the pacing. If it was like Ghost in the Shell Stand Alone Complex where you have episodes labeled "Stand Alone" episodes and "Complex" episodes (aka moving the narrative forward and not a side narrative) I would enjoy Naruto the anime so much more.

[Traab]

Yep the reverse sexy jutsu, harem edition, is probably the biggest high point of the entire arc. Its like, im not sure if the sight of an army of naked bishounen men distracted her in a pervy way, or if its just the fact that the very idea was so bizarre, it wasnt thinking outside the box, its outside of the bathtub and streaking down main street. Just a few seconds of "ERROR, ERROR, DOES NOT COMPUTE!" as she tried to process wtf this total deranged lunatic was thinking to use THIS as a technique in a fight to save the world. Only way it might have been better is if they were masculine versions of kaguya to try a little harder at the sexy response from her by using her own species.

[LaZodiac]

The Reverse Harem Jutsu is literally the best moment of this entire miserable ****ing war arc, and SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE FINISH. It gives everyone their moment to shine. It embodies the innocence and youth of Naruto that dares to fight back against this system of child soldiers. It is revealing the big horrible demon alien rabbit mom to be just as fallible as every other human. Sakura does Anything At All. It's good ****.

Now for things to immediately take a turn into the absolute worst.

[Rodin]

This is my problem with Naruto Filler in the Anime for it completely ruins the pacing. If it was like Ghost in the Shell Stand Alone Complex where you have episodes labeled "Stand Alone" episodes and "Complex" episodes (aka moving the narrative forward and not a side narrative) I would enjoy Naruto the anime so much more.

I don't think renaming them would have helped here.

While I didn't read the manga, I remember when Kaguya showed up there because everyone talked about how she came out of nowhere and then was gone, just like that. My impression from that is that she was only around for a few chapters and got virtually no characterization during that time.

In contrast, the anime spends longer than an entire cour on her. And boy, howdy, does it show. It's great that they fleshed out her story, but the way they did it totally destroys the dramatic tension. There's a single episode of battle followed by several episodes of backstory, then a single episode of battle followed by a couple episodes of flashbacks. And in the middle of all this there's an outright filler episode that is set pre-timeskip!

It took roughly 4 months to get through material that an abridged version would be able to handle in a single episode.

The Reverse Harem jutsu almost makes it worth it. Almost.

By the way, the filler episode I mentioned is pure gold. Best filler episode in the entire franchise. I just wish they had waited until AFTER the big climax to air it.

[LaZodiac]

I'm not gonna lie, the fact that in Shippuden up all filler was written by Kishimoto so it'd be in line with the canon is explaining a lot of what went wrong with Naruto. He put some stuff that probably should have been in the manga in the anime (like interacting with slug tail boy) and some of the stuff is probably a bit more decompressed than it should be in one, and too compressed in another.

And also, importantly, this is VERY much explaining what is currently happening with his new series, Hachimaru 8. He is doing the same thing, but with no anime to consume the filler and copious amounts of backstory he feels need to be explained. So it's literally killing his star potential and his new series.

Thank you ATORS and Rodin. Without you two I wouldn't have been able to realize this realization.

[Rater202]

I don't get the complaints that Kaguya came out of nowhere considering that a hundred or so chapters before she was even named, the supposedly mindless Ten-Tails started doing hand signs in the lead up to the

Something that the actually mind-having Tailed Beasts themselves almost never do--the closest was Kurama holding his hands/paws together while in the lotus position while using meditation to accelerate his Chakra regen around the same time.

She was also mentioned by name in the lead up to Infinite Moon Thingy, and The Sage of the Six Paths explicitly said that Madara had recreated his mother's power when he gave Naruto and Sasuke his Chakra and awakened the Chakra of his sons within them.

And IIRC, someone was talking to Madara when Madara was getting ready to do infinite moon thingy after Naruto cut down the World Tree with a Rasenshuriken augmented with Lava Release and Son Goku's chakra.

Kaguya was more than adequately foreshadowed. It's just a major piece of it was something minor that was easy to overlook and was way before the rest of the foreshadowing, which was only a couple of chapters before she physically showed up.

If you want to stretch, she was foreshadowed all the way back in part 1: During the Chunin Exam Prelims, it was stated that some people thought that the Sharingan was a mutation of the Byakugan and that the two clans had a common ancestor.

At the very end of the original manga, it is revealed that this is exactly the case, other than the mutation being caused by eating god-tree-fruit instead of natural mutation, and that common ancestor of the Hyuga and Uchiha is the final boss.

Her being a flat character is a fair criticism, but personally I think having her be more complex and developed would hurt: All of the sufferings of the past century, at least, is ultimately caused by Kaguya's selfishness and being a smothering mother. That's she's a selfish control freak who didn't want anyone else to have Chakra or for her sons to become independent is all we really needed to know about her and taking the time to add more to her would have just obscured the point.

[Aotrs Commander]

By the way, the filler episode I mentioned is pure gold. Best filler episode in the entire franchise. I just wish they had waited until AFTER the big climax to air it.

Better than Mecha-Naruto?

Hoo, BOY!

Score!

Thank you ATORS and Rodin. Without you two I wouldn't have been able to realize this realization.

*tips helmet*



Also, it never fails to hilariously amuse me when "Aotrs," is mispelled (it's an acronym for Army Of The Red Spear, and yes the inclusion of "of" and "the" in that are deliberate, lest it be ARS, which being in the UK is one letter away from being bottom); even people like my Dad who have spent twenty-something years hearing me pronounce it ("a- (as in "hay") - oat (like the plant) - ers" for the record), because I think it says a great deal about reading human pattern recognition (or spell check, google always insists I mean "actors" unless I put it in quote...) that is either comes out as Ators or Aorts...

[LaZodiac]

I don't get the complaints that Kaguya came out of nowhere considering that a hundred or so chapters before she was even named, the supposedly mindless Ten-Tails started doing hand signs in the lead up to the

Something that the actually mind-having Tailed Beasts themselves almost never do--the closest was Kurama holding his hands/paws together while in the lotus position while using meditation to accelerate his Chakra regen around the same time.

She was also mentioned by name in the lead up to Infinite Moon Thingy, and The Sage of the Six Paths explicitly said that Madara had recreated his mother's power when he gave Naruto and Sasuke his Chakra and awakened the Chakra of his sons within them.

And IIRC, someone was talking to Madara when Madara was getting ready to do infinite moon thingy after Naruto cut down the World Tree with a Rasenshuriken augmented with Lava Release and Son Goku's chakra.

Kaguya was more than adequately foreshadowed. It's just a major piece of it was something minor that was easy to overlook and was way before the rest of the foreshadowing, which was only a couple of chapters before she physically showed up.

If you want to stretch, she was foreshadowed all the way back in part 1: During the Chunin Exam Prelims, it was stated that some people thought that the Sharingan was a mutation of the Byakugan and that the two clans had a common ancestor.

At the very end of the original manga, it is revealed that this is exactly the case, other than the mutation being caused by eating god-tree-fruit instead of natural mutation, and that common ancestor of the Hyuga and Uchiha is the final boss.

Her being a flat character is a fair criticism, but personally I think having her be more complex and developed would hurt: All of the sufferings of the past century, at least, is ultimately caused by Kaguya's selfishness and being a smothering mother. That's she's a selfish control freak who didn't want anyone else to have Chakra or for her sons to become independent is all we really needed to know about her and taking the time to add more to her would have just obscured the point.

I don't see how the ten tails doing hand signs is foreshadowing that a ninja mom rabbit from space exists.

I don't remember a name of Kaguya so I'll allow that.

I figured that was Zetsu.

The eyes being connected isn't forshadowing for "ninja mom rabbit from space" at all. It's an in universe connection that makes sense and doesn't have anything to do with space mom.

Given how many people consider her a giant space flea from nowhere I feel like it's not accurate to say se was adequately foreshadowed. She clearly wasn't, otherwise people wouldn't be calling this an out of nowhere last minute villain hook because Madara was too strong. Madara was built up over the entire series, mentioned and SEEN multiple times in statue or otherwise, with a clear and actual connection. While, again, I don't remember the Sage of Six Paths mentioning his Mom, I feel like that far into things is too late to start foreshadowing the real true villain.

Also yeah we can at least agree that Kaguya is a nothing character. Zetsu survived purely to be a mouthpiece for her. It would have obscured things more to develop her further, but it really raises the question of "Why have her be around then". Just have Madara be the one doing the Infinite Tsukoyomi alongside Obito... which he is doing, and have that be it. Have some mention of how he got this plan from the doting mother of the Sage of Six Paths if you must have a Kaguya in the story, but there's no reason at all for Kaguya herself to appear.

Better than Mecha-Naruto?

Hoo, BOY!

Score!





*tips helmet*



Also, it never fails to hilariously amuse me when "Aotrs," is mispelled (it's an acronym for Army Of The Red Spear, and yes the inclusion of "of" and "the" in that are deliberate, lest it be ARS, which being in the UK is one letter away from being bottom); even people like my Dad who have spent twenty-something years hearing me pronounce it ("a- (as in "hay") - oat (like the plant) - ers" for the record), because I think it says a great deal about reading human pattern recognition (or spell check, google always insists I mean "actors" unless I put it in quote...) that is either comes out as Ators or Aorts...

I do my best to remember by I have too many things in my brain to do so, sorry.

[Ramza00]

Also yeah we can at least agree that Kaguya is a nothing character. Zetsu survived purely to be a mouthpiece for her. It would have obscured things more to develop her further, but it really raises the question of "Why have her be around then". Just have Madara be the one doing the Infinite Tsukoyomi alongside Obito... which he is doing, and have that be it. Have some mention of how he got this plan from the doting mother of the Sage of Six Paths if you must have a Kaguya in the story, but there's no reason at all for Kaguya herself to appear.

Honestly it may have been a more interesting option for it to be Madara to be the final villain and after they defeat him but do not seal him Zetsu does his thing, and Zetsu tries to resurrect Kaguya but fails to do so before being sealed. Yes some people will complain that we never got to see Kaguya and thus they would be disappointed but this plot sequence would have.

1) Solved the problem of evil, and not make Madara be the source of all evil like he is some all knowing and all powerful being yet simultaneously be a human with human capabilities, human desires and we as the audience are supposed to empathize with.
2) It will connect "The Curse of Hatred" of the Uchiha back to Black Zetsu and while he wrote the "myth" the myth was actually true. Black Zetsu the incarnated son / will of Kaguya was just trying to resurrect his mother that he loved, but this is not to be. The world moved on and you should not resurrect the dead if doing so creates a cycle of hatred, a "curse" onto others instead of a graceful "gift." Black Zetsu was just trying to resurrect mom for that is the only person he knew love from, and everything that he saw in this ninja world was cruel, alien, just like Naruto on that swing, but it did not have to be this way...Something, something, something.

Whatever. Naruto is a good story even if individual parts of the story are unsatisfying. What it does well is worth those individual parts not being satisfying, the story carries itself forward.

[Can't say the same thing for Boruto currently, for it has only been good for maybe 20 or 25% of the time we have read the manga pages. I am not watching the anime, though I did watch Boruto the Movie.]

[Rater202]

The Ten-Tails was explicitly said to be mindless becuase it's a tree. This is from Kurama's mouth.

It being able to do hand signs at all, especially unprompted, is a major red flag that it's not as mindless as was indicated.

It's not foreshadowing Kaguya specifically but it's foreshadowing something being up with the Ten-Tails that not even Kurama, who was once a piece of the Ten Tails, knows about.

And then later we find out that the Ten Tails isn't the Shinju but Kaguya merged with the Shinju, explaining how it was able to do proper techniques.

Actually, now that I think about it, this technically means that Kaguya was physically present for several real-life months before assuming her true form once Madara had perfectly recreated her Chakra signature

[Ramza00]

Actually, now that I think about it, this technically means that Kaguya was physically present for several real-life months before assuming her true form once Madara had perfectly recreated her Chakra signature

Yes Orochimaru's resurrection was foreshadowing for Kaguya's resurrection. Naruto with its chakra mechanics is much like many "eastern" ideals of the self being emergent from smaller parts and so on and the self is ever present even if doesn't arise to "conscious reality."

Orochimaru was always there in each of his cursed seals, his chakra remains, anything he touch [as are all people] but given enough of a push you can resurrect and make the self awake and pull itself together into a mortal body. Likewise Kaguya did the same thing when you gather enough of her chakra signal together in the same method.

And thus we get a more boring Orochimaru. Perhaps the scene would be more enjoyable if Black Zetsu compared himself to Orochimaru saying I was the true scientist / philosopher / etc who was trying to recreate my mother and resurrect the dead. I Black Zetsu and not Tobi is Good Boy who wanted his mother's approval and someone else in the world who cared for me, for Black Zetsu is so lonely on that Naruto swing for over a thousand years.

[Rodin]

Given how many people consider her a giant space flea from nowhere I feel like it's not accurate to say se was adequately foreshadowed. She clearly wasn't, otherwise people wouldn't be calling this an out of nowhere last minute villain hook because Madara was too strong. Madara was built up over the entire series, mentioned and SEEN multiple times in statue or otherwise, with a clear and actual connection. While, again, I don't remember the Sage of Six Paths mentioning his Mom, I feel like that far into things is too late to start foreshadowing the real true villain.

Agreed.

Both mentions of her name are DURING the final battle with Obito/Madara. That still counts as coming out of nowhere in a story the length of Naruto. That isn't foreshadowing, that's quickly name-dropping a character you're about to introduce so it doesn't feel like a total ass-pull when she appears.

I didn't like any of those story elements. I didn't like the Sage of Six Paths suddenly being able to show up and give a massive info-dump. I didn't like Naruto and Sasuke being reincarnating adversaries, especially since the previous version of the same souls were actively running about fighting each other at the time. I didn't like them suddenly being gifted with a massive power boost in the middle of the battle without having done anything to earn it. I didn't like Kaguya showing up since she was an infinitely more boring villain with no connection to any of the characters. And I especially didn't like the massive amount of exposition required to introduce all of this stuff, which totally killed the plot's momentum.

I get that there's a lot of mysticism and symbolism and legends that Kishimoto was trying to get across. That's not the same thing as making a good story.

On the plus side, there was some really cool stuff here. The origin of the tailed beasts was pretty neat, and having Zetsu be the sneaky manipulator was a nice payoff for him hanging around doing nothing for most of the story.

[Ramza00]

The pacing of naruto went all down the tubes after Tobi with his Six Edo Tensei Jinchuuriki fought Naruto, Killer Bee, Guy, and Kakashi. The stuff afterward is not bad, but it is not well paced. [So the 560ish range of comics]

Aka the day with the battle that never ends even though armies are involved and it takes place over a 24 hour period where people are constantly regaining chakra due to the 9 tails being infinite chakra, but not infinite chakra all at once, and sometimes you need 10 minutes to replenish the infinite chakra.

Seriously nothing of that battle after Tobi with his Six Edo Tensei Jinchuuriki makes sense. By the 590s (so over 7 months later) we get Tobi being tired of fighting and he has Gold and Silver brothers in the Amber Purifying Pot. And so what does Tobi do? He starts the 10 tails transformation right here for no reason? Tobi are you the descendent of Vegeta and his Saiyan Pride?

Tobi you have teleportation magic and no one else does, go 1000 miles away, or 10,000 miles away and start the ten tail transformation there you silly Uchiha! You have bad evil villain skills, let Aotrs Commander explain to you the proper way of acting like a Lich when you do not have a regeneration Phylactery, you run away when you have victory but you have to wait for the victory timer to kick in.

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So yeah like Kaguya was foreshadowed but barely foreshadowed well and most of the foreshadowing is during the day that just did not end over 3 years of comic time!

But it is not just Kaguya that suffered lots of details and plots got lost in the mess of the battle that never end. For example we learn the Sage of the Six Paths has a "secret" brother that history never recorded. Is this commented on, the answer is no. Did they hang a lampshade with it? Nope. Did they use this as an exercise for theme building such as not even the Sage of Six Paths could rebuild the world without the bonds of family and friends? [I am looking at you Sasuke] Nope.

Likewise what was the secret thing the 2nd hokage gave Sasuke.

What about the Sage Tools that look like Chekov guns to the problem but turns out to be a waste of time / lore gatherers.

So on and so on. Lots of sloppiness caused by exhaustion at the end of Naruto, on the readers and probably especially on the writer Kishimoto. Kaguya is just the first thing that springs to peoples mind but it is actually isn't the most glaring sloppiness in this 3 years of writting.

[Traab]

To me the real problem was, the final war had so many good parts to it, but they were engulfed by so much garbage. Especially when they started repeating the flashbacks like obitos life story. Its like, ok, we get it, this was his child hood, you can stop showing us his childhood no... ok so you started showing it again. Im trying to remember it but I think someone did two version of the shinobi war arc, one that was literally nothing but the fights and current time dialogue, and one that had all the flashbacks in it. It was like a tenth the length of the full sized video.

Things I liked

1) Various edo tensei fights. Not all of them, but some had great scenes involved with it. Like, i enjoyed naruto versus the raikage and how he eventually figured out the secret behind his scar and won.

2) I loved it when naruto was able to use the kyuubi chakra to link everyone together so minato could teleport them outside the ten tailed beast bomb blast radius. Not only did it show his ability to think quickly and come up with impressive strategies, it was one of the points where he was earning the respect of the edo kages around him and really showing how he was growing into a worthy successor.

3) Earlier on I loved the team 7 reuniting moment with the three summons, and the utterly hilarious if intentional sakura fail where she proclaims how she isnt going to be left behind staring at their backs... then promptly stays behind staring at their backs so she can heal everyone. i get it, it was an important role she had to fill, but I nearly ruptured something laughing at that moment.

4) Also loved watching the rest of the rookies show their stuff against the ten tailed muck creature things. A great chance for everyone to show how far they have come, but also demonstrate the sheer distance between what amounts to the neo sannin and them.

5) When everyone jumped into the obito naruto tug of war to help naruto out. I mean, the symbolism of the outcome between going it alone and going with your friends there was gently applied with a rocket propelled sledgehammer, but it was still a great scene to watch.

6) Going WAY back, maderas big appearance as he basically single handedly stomps over the entire shinobi army with diamond tipped cleats on. And even with the various kage/naruto team up combos, all it did was force him to take the fight semi seriously. THAT is how you display the epic "final" boss and do it right! From the moment he solo charged the entire army and started flicking them around the battlefield like boogers you knew this was the guy. This was no hype train, this was no exaggerated legend, madera is not playing and he will ROCK you.

7) Him taking down the 5 kage just reinforced that. It was enough of a battle to not be stupid, but it clearly established the pecking order as madera>>>kage>>>>>everyone else. Which let us process just how strong naruto was going to have to be to fight him.

8) Might Gai and the 8 gates. I STILL get chills when madera flat out states that he acknowledges gais taijutsu skills as supreme. He is LOVING this fight as for the first time today he is facing someone that even approaches his level. He would have actually been slaughtered had he not had all that stupid zetsu regen body part nonsense. Watching gai basically kick a black hole into existence with raw physical speed and power is a moment worthy of staying on the naruto entire series highlight reel. Kakashi can keep his fist full of lightning, gai has a foot that can warp space/time.

There were more moments but you get the gist. These were great times but they were engulfed by 10x as much drek and filler. Its like the epic rap battle between superman and goku, "Your rapping is weaker than your fight scenes! Just one punch, and OVER NINE THOUSAND SCREAMS!" Only in narutos case its NINE THOUSAND FLASHBACKS!

[Lord Raziere]

Yeah, pacing did get ridiculous.

though one of the problems I think fourth shinobi war has is that for some reason there was just a bunch of new setting ideas suddenly introduced at the end that aren't a 1:1 matchup with everything else in the series. or weren't entirely explained well.

like, the reincarnation and Hagoromo's chakra ghost thing, why Indra and Asura specifically? can there be more people doing this? is it just some technique they never taught anyone else?

or all these facts like that Indra was the one to invent hand seals, that Hagoromo sealed away Kaguya, that apparently Hagoromo made this big religion spread everywhere throughout the world and somehow everyone forgot about its teachings? one would think this all would be very big historical stuff you learn about, even if its ancient history that has nothing to do with modern day problems I feel this is all stuff that would still be required reading in some history class, not kept secret. or that at least, the Ninshuu religion would know all this as their mythology they pass down and carry on the Sage's moral teachings even if they forgot the art of Ninshuu itself for Ninjutsu.

or how apparently, the Uchiha, Senju and Uzumaki bloodlines have existed for apparently a thousand years about, enough time for the rinnegan to be considered a myth, yet these clans have never mixed their blood and accidentally had some random rinnegan child from some forbidden tryst or marriage alliance that could've ended with betrayal anyways? and why didn't Orochimaru with his genetic engineering just steal DNA from both clans and made a forbidden jutsu to combine the DNA into some custom made test tube child for his own purposes? because lets be honest, we know Ororchimaru was aiming for the rinnegan all along, thats the only explanation as to why he both experimented on Yamato and was trying for an Uchiha, he somehow knew that he needed to do all this to get the best eyes for what he wanted.
and what other bloodline- or eye combinations are out there!? have they never had weird combinations of bastard childs popping up and suddenly doing some weird no one can explain?

oh and Kekkei Toutas, we only ever got one: Dust Release. what about the other potential three-element releases? absolutely nothing. not even in theory. I have my own fanon ideas but y'know...would be nice to know what other combinations are possible....

also, Ninshuu: no techniques from this? its supposed to be for peaceful purposes and such, we never got anything to expand on that concept? why? there is no details on it! its mentioned then ignored as a thing when y'know, I'd very much like to see Ninshuu as an actual thing before Indra made his hand seal ninjutsu innovation, what Hagoromo was teaching them and really aiming for before Indra hijacked that train.

or how the Tailed Beasts never told anyone of their history for like, what 60-80 maybe 100 years while imprisoned for the villages? you'd think that they'd get bored enough to talk about it once in a while. like shouldn't there at least be warnings from the ninjas around to the jinchuuriki "by the way, the tailed beast will speak any lie they can to try and help escape and claim ridiculous things like knowing the sage of the six paths to trick you, don't listen to them."

just a lot of things that being introduced so late, don't really match up with things that happened earlier, or never really got explored even there is ample room to explore them in a new series without more bunny aliens from space/other dimensions involved.

speaking of other dimensions: are the summons from other dimensions or not? given how they need summoning to get here, thats what I assume, that all the frogs and talking animals are actually smart alien animals from different dimensions and that the contracts just summons with beings and dimensions they currently know of, but its not really explained. because they are in there since OG Naruto, so that weirdness can't be blamed on Fourth Shinobi War.

[Ramza00]

also, Ninshuu: no techniques from this? its supposed to be for peaceful purposes and such, we never got anything to expand on that concept? why? there is no details on it! its mentioned then ignored as a thing when y'know, I'd very much like to see Ninshuu as an actual thing before Indra made his hand seal ninjutsu innovation, what Hagoromo was teaching them and really aiming for before Indra hijacked that train.

Madara explained the principles of Ninshuu and if we can apply those theoretical principles we can label certain events in Naruto as Ninshuu techniques even if we are not 100% sure they are Ninshuu for they are not flat out named Ninshuu techniques by an authority figure such as The Sage of the Six Paths, or an outside authority such as a Databook.

Based off Madara's Ninshuu speech two obvious candidates of a Ninshuu type technique

1) Naruto and Obito being able to enter each other's minds is the underlying goal of Ninshuu. The goal is to talk without words, to talk by connecting one's spiritual energy with one another.
2) Naruto sharing the Nine Tails Chakra with everyone else. I need to look up the exact translation of prayer used but besides Ninshuu being used to connect each other's spiritual energy and allow them to communicate and gain greater insight, Ninshuu helped protect one another by the this prayer.

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So my point here is Ninshuu is pretty much Talk No Jutsu but you can literally stop time and space when you engage it to meet purely on the mental plane of the mind.

[LaZodiac]

The best part of Madara fighting the five Kages is him summoning a giant rock, them doing everything they can to defeat it, and then him just summoning another giant rock. There was an LP of one of the fighting games and they made a joke about that (because all but the player was blind) and the player started laughing his ass off because "WELL, I MEAN"