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2016-02-18, 06:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Is this math-based riddle too hard
Here is what the players will find on an encrypted hard drive.
They are looking for a password, which is a number, and it is supposedly on this storage device. However the data that is encrypted is a riddle to find the answer. Anyway here it is.
9*3=23
E*X=92
10-5=7
E+1=10
X/2=5
X*5=Answer
If the players do something I'll five them this hint
Spoiler: HintThe answer is fifty, but not 50Last edited by dascarletm; 2016-02-18 at 06:28 PM.
Dascarletm, Spinner of Rudiplorked Tales, and Purveyor of PunsThanks to Artman77 for the avatar!
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2016-02-18, 06:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
It looks pretty straightforward to me. The answer is
.Spoiler: the answerthe answer to the ultimate question, of life, the universe, and everything, at least in terms of digitsSpoiler: detailscalculations are in base 6*2
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2016-02-18, 06:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
Dascarletm, Spinner of Rudiplorked Tales, and Purveyor of PunsThanks to Artman77 for the avatar!
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2016-02-18, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
Yeah, the trick is that it all seems to that...
SpoilerIt all seems to be base 12, which isn't a base I'm used to working in (I tend to use 8 or 16 when deviating from 10, because it converts to binary easily).
So instead of 9+9+9=27, you have 9+9=16, 14+9=13
E*X I'm not sure of at this point in the calculations.
10-5=7 is the easiest way to work out that it's base 12.
E+1=10, working back we can find out that this means E equals 1110
From here we can in theory work out X, but I'm not confident dividing 9216 by 1110.
However, X/5=5 means that X must equal 1010.
Using this we look at X*5=?, and we substitute in X=1010.
Therefore the answer is 5010 in base 12. Now this is where I fall down a bit, but by what I think is the way to convert between bases by hand, we have:
50/12=4 remainder 2.
Take the first number as the 'tens', second as the 'units'. Therefore, the answer is 4212
That is, I think, the easiest way to do it by hand, it requires entirely on spotting 10-5=7 and realising the implication. For a harder riddle how about something along the lines of:
SpoilerWhen 10-5=7
6T+4U=28
2T+10U=24
XT+YU=?
The maths is harder, and it's still not in decimal, but it's still not unreasonable to work out. The real trick here is working out that T is the 'tens' and U is the 'Units'.
Disclaimer: please check with your group before excepting riddles from nameless mages. The Anonymouswizard will not be hold liable for any sessions that grind to a halt through application of his ideas.
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2016-02-18, 06:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2015
Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
It depends on who the audience is. If the players are math students, I think it is too easy. If they are, for example, history students, then it should be all right.
It may just be that my first few steps when seeing equations like 9*3=23 are
Spoiler: steps1: try another base than base ten.
2: try calculations modulo some number
3: try to redefine the symbols '*' and '=' in some way
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2016-02-18, 06:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
Spoiler: AnswerFifty, or 42.
Spoiler: ExplanationI only used the first four equations.
9*3 = 23 established that it could not be any lower than base ten. As 9*3 is 27 in base ten, 9*3 = 23 must be base twelve. (27 = 2(x^1) + 3(x^0)).
10 - 5 = 7 confirmed this.
Now we know E = eleven, from E+1 = 10.
Using the second equation, eleven * X = 92 in base twelve.
So, eleven * X = 9(12^1) + 2(12^0) in base ten.
eleven * X = 110
X = ten
So X*5 is fifty, which is written as 42 as the question is in base twelve.
EDIT: @DavidSh I tried to redefine * at first, but I'm a maths student, so there's that.
I'd remove the X/2 = 5 bit. Too easy.
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2016-02-18, 07:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
As an archaeologist, I have to admit that one made me stumble. But once I realized we aren't operating in base 10, it's simple enough. Just be aware that non-math majors may not make the same realization. I think I've only ever been introduced to non-base-10 systems once for a day in my entire educational career.
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2016-02-18, 07:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
Yeah, I'm a math person (or was, all throughout high school and my first semester of college) and I never got introduced to new bases. Make sure there are math majors.
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2016-02-18, 07:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-02-18, 07:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
I found it to be easy from the first line:
9*3=23 tells you the trick.
But I have a maths degree so that might not be a useful observation.
Know your players - is the usual trick with these.π = 4
Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.
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2016-02-18, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
I guess it depends on who the players are; I have no idea why the answer is what it is (are you adding two on the end of every answer? And if so why? Because X should be 10 and E is 9 if that's what's happening, the only problem being Answer which???? I don't understand; its either 50 or 52 but why the extra 2????? What is it?) but I've only done basic highschool math, regular algebra etc.
If you're using a math rule or function theyre aware of they should be fine but yeah, if they don't have any experience with it (I.e. theyre a math pleb like me) you might wanna revise it.
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2016-02-18, 07:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
Quick question: How do you represent eleven in a base 12 number system?
Last edited by NRSASD; 2016-02-18 at 07:52 PM.
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2016-02-18, 08:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
Traditionally you start using letters. In hex its a=10, b=11, etc.
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2016-02-18, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
My players would never figure it out since they didn't do anything beyond high-school mathematics.
Last edited by Milo v3; 2016-02-18 at 08:14 PM.
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2016-02-18, 08:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- Protecting my Horde (yes, I mean that kind)
Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
Other symbols. Like in hexadecimal where you go 0-F where A to F represent the units ten through sixteen. The reason this puzzle works is because none of the numbers are ten or eleven, which if represented by letters rather than numerals gives away the trick. Doing this is in hexadecimal for example would be a give away since most people at least passingly familiar with computers should be able to recognize what's going on.
Like they say there are 10 kinds people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
Spoiler9*3=23 (total value is twenty-seven units, but in base 12 we have two units of twelve and three extra)
E*X=92 (nine groups of twelve, and two more)
10-5=7 ( in base twelve this is one group of twelve less five units = seven units)
E+1=10 (since we determined this is Base 12, the numerals 1 0 are a single unit of twelves and nothing else, so we have a total of E equals eleven units)
X/2=5 (as above anything divided in two parts equaling five units must be ten units)
X*5=Answer (42, or rather four groups of twelve and two extra)
Last edited by Beleriphon; 2016-02-18 at 08:24 PM.
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2016-02-18, 08:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
So, I a) was a computer science major, math minor; b) I love puzzles; c) I'm something of a math genius (perfect 800 on math SATs, published my own math theory while in high school, etc).
I didn't find the puzzle hard, but that doesn't say much. 10-5=7, confirmed by 9*3=23, was the fun part. X/2=5, X*5=Answer was nice to trick people who would jump to the wrong answer. And many smart people I know would likely never be able to solve this puzzle. And certainly not have fun solving this.
So, know your players. How familiar are they with alternate bases? How much do they enjoy this type of puzzle?
I did, however, find it... odd. Why would anyone put their password on an unencrypted storage device, and encrypt it as a puzzle? Does the system you are playing have hacking skills?
I love puzzles In RPGs, but this just feels out of place to me.
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2016-02-18, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
There's some precedent for these kinds of puzzles. The Myst series (and a few other adventure games) also had a few puzzles using non base 10 number systems. For instance, doing math in base 25 (Riven) and base 8, 60, and 2 (RAMA) were pretty standard back in the day. Usually you had to lean an alternative numbering system, too.
That being said, these games expected you to take your time and sleep on it if you couldn't figure it out. So, like others have said, it really depends on your players.
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2016-02-18, 10:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
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2016-02-18, 10:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-02-19, 03:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
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2016-02-19, 04:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
It was pretty easy for me to figure out...but then, I'm a person who annoyed enough people to prefer avoiding an entire sub-forum because at the time I was refusing to count in anything other than dozenal/dodecimal in a game based around counting. 9*3=23 showed me everything I needed to know for this, and I just skipped right to the end.
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2016-02-19, 09:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
I'd say it should be fine. Be ready with a couple of other clues that it is Base 12, though, or make it so solving the riddle is a bonus, not a necessity for moving the plot forward.
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2016-02-19, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
I use E to represent eleven, and X to represent ten.
Well, the system is a cyberpunk game that I've been working on myself for some time, and I'm going to have my gaming group try it out within the next few months. The villain is going to be the type that likes to play with the investigators (the players). He may also be obsessed with the number twelve (yet tbd). So, if they go with 50, they will still advance the plot, but in a less fortunate way. If they go with 42 they will advance it in a positive way.
I expected it to be too easy for most of the people coming in here (since the title would draw math lovers). However, my players are smart people, but I'm not sure if they've done alternate base systems before. I do think I can actually cut-down on the clues due to everyone's feedback. They really like riddles, and they like being stumped by a challenge. Hopefully they won't think to look at different base systems right away.
EDIT: also the riddle isn't needed to advance the plot, it just allows them to narrow down 50 buildings they can search.Last edited by dascarletm; 2016-02-19 at 11:58 AM.
Dascarletm, Spinner of Rudiplorked Tales, and Purveyor of PunsThanks to Artman77 for the avatar!
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2016-02-19, 12:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
As someone who stopped taking math classes in university as soon as I could, I didn't get this even after reading the solution. I get it now but I had read most of the posts in this thread before it clicked. There's no way I'd get this on the spot.
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2016-02-19, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
Dascarletm, Spinner of Rudiplorked Tales, and Purveyor of PunsThanks to Artman77 for the avatar!
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2016-02-19, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
Without reading, yes. Yes, it is.
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2016-02-19, 01:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
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2016-02-19, 01:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-02-19, 02:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
Give them a hint that it's in feet and inches.
Last edited by N810; 2016-02-19 at 02:20 PM.
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2016-02-19, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is this math-based riddle too hard
We can't answer this for you, you know your players better than we.
In both my groups this would probably be solved fairly quickly. No pure mathematicians here but at least one programmer in each, and a physics doctorate in one (not sure if the biology doctor would get it or not, but it wouldn't surprise me), and a History major who is quite bright and likes math in the other. As an English major it took me a bit of fooling around before I realized that I had to be thinking in different bases. Longer than would be fun to waste time on in a game, but more people might make things go faster.
However both groups also have people who have literally been reduced to tears at the sight of anything more complicated than simple arithmetic.
This is also the perfect example of a situation where character stats are more important than player abilities. It would for instance be most unfair to have a PC be e.g. a professor of math but have them be unable to solve this simply because the player sucks at anything containing numbers, then have the illiterate, innumerate mentally deficient brick solve it because that player knows this stuff.
Sure, you might argue that so long as one player solves it, in game it is the most appropriate PC who comes up with it, but what happens if you have appropriate PCs and the players cannot solve it?
What I do in these situations is I would give the puzzle to the players, let them try to solve it with their own brainpower and if that fails, let their characters roll for it.