Mithral BP = About a year to craft?!

[Forks]

I was checking out perhaps trying to craft some mithral armor for my buddies in the group because we'd just made friends with a little dwarven mining operation. Then I did the calculations with my craft skill for mithral breastplate and found that it would take about 60 weeks to complete - MORE than a YEAR.

Am I doing something wrong here?

[RMS Oceanic]

It's kinda hard to comment without your total Craft skill modifier. We could work it out if you tell us.

[InaVegt]

Depends on your craft modifier.

Assuming +5 craft and always taking 10 you get 22.5 gp of breastplate per week, that's 4200 / 22.5 = 186 + 2/3 weeks of work, every additional point of bonus increases the amount created per week by 1.5 gp. 60 weeks would require an insane bonus to your craft skill (well in the thirties).

[Forks]

This pretty much answered my question. Thanks.

Even when if I bump my craft mod up to +20 and up the DC to 30, it would still take 48 weeks to complete. I was just trying to make sure that the craft mechanic works the same for special materials. Looks like we'll just have to go shopping.

[Fax Celestis]

Yes, probably.

Crafting score (the score needed to complete the item) is price in gp * 10. So, breastplate (mithral) is 200 (breastplate) + 4000 (mithral) * 10, or 420,000. The DC is 10 + AC, or 15.

If you pass the check (at DC 15, not hard), you multiply your check result by the DC. Say you have four ranks and an Int mod of +3, and you roll a natural 20. Your check result is 27 (a pass), so you multiply 27 by 15.

27*15=405

42,000/405 = 103.7 weeks

Now, if you have ten ranks, an Int mod of +5, and a +2 circumstance from having a smithy and take 20, you have a score of 37.

37*15=555
42,000/555= 75.6 weeks

[Forks]

The DC is base 20 because mithral armor is always masterwork. EDIT: Just looked at craft skill again, I have no idea where I got this number from.

Also, would taking 20 speed things up? I assumed that only taking 10 would be viable with craft, since taking 20 takes 20 times longer and includes mistakes and all that jazz.

Dont forget also that you can voluntarily raise the DC by 10. So if you can make the higher check, progress goes faster.

[Fax Celestis]

No, the base DC is 15. The masterwork component DC is 20.

Creating Masterwork Items

You can make a masterwork item—a weapon, suit of armor, shield, or tool that conveys a bonus on its use through its exceptional craftsmanship, not through being magical. To create a masterwork item, you create the masterwork component as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item. The masterwork component has its own price (300 gp for a weapon or 150 gp for a suit of armor or a shield) and a Craft DC of 20. Once both the standard component and the masterwork component are completed, the masterwork item is finished. Note: The cost you pay for the masterwork component is one-third of the given amount, just as it is for the cost in raw materials.

[Tyger]

Thank the gods for the Fabricate spell!

[goat]

Well, if we assume you're a well established smith with a prosperous history... Which you would be if you're making mithral armour. It sells for thousands of gold, and from the thread about untrained labourers, 1GP a day would be more than enough to live on.

You own a +20 armour-making forge from Races of Stone, it cost you a lot (About 10k I think), but it speeds everything up so much that it was worth it and you can pass it on to your children. You also own a +10 ring of craft(armour), another 10k that can be passed on as an heirloom.

You have an apprentice and masterwork tools for +4.

You are level 5, with 8 ranks in craft(armour) and an intelligence bonus of +3.

You've got skill focus (craft) for another +3

You are a Dwarf, +2.

That gives you a +50 modifier. Take 10 for a "roll" of 60.

Now, if we bump the crafting DC check up to 55, you're making 3300 sp progress a week. You can make that armour in under 13 weeks.


So, you can reliably make anything with a voluntarily imposed DC check of 51-60

306-360 GP's worth of stuff a week. That's 15,300-18,000 GP a year, assuming you have 2 weeks off. In other words, you can pay off your forge and ring in a few years without any trouble. But it'll still take you most of a year to make a full suit of Adamantine plate.

[drudo]

Well, if we assume you're a well established smith with a prosperous history... Which you would be if you're making mithral armour. It sells for thousands of gold, and from the thread about untrained labourers, 1GP a day would be more than enough to live on.

You own a +20 armour-making forge from Races of Stone, it cost you a lot (About 10k I think), but it speeds everything up so much that it was worth it and you can pass it on to your children. You also own a +10 ring of craft(armour), another 10k that can be passed on as an heirloom.

You have an apprentice and masterwork tools for +4.

You are level 5, with 8 ranks in craft(armour) and an intelligence bonus of +3.

You've got skill focus (craft) for another +3

You are a Dwarf, +2.

That gives you a +50 modifier. Take 10 for a "roll" of 60.

Now, if we bump the crafting DC check up to 55, you're making 3300 sp progress a week. You can make that armour in under 13 weeks.


So, you can reliably make anything with a voluntarily imposed DC check of 51-60

306-360 GP's worth of stuff a week. That's 15,300-18,000 GP a year, assuming you have 2 weeks off. In other words, you can pay off your forge and ring in a few years without any trouble. But it'll still take you most of a year to make a full suit of Adamantine plate.

Ok, now just tell me where a non adventurer gets 20 thousand gold.
A farmer earns about 10 GP a week, thats 40 a month, 480 a year
Even if a noble gets ten or twenty times that amount he would still need year to gather 20k because he has to pay for other things too

A magical blacksmith worth 10k would be in possession of a church of some god and one of the greatest relics of that church
No way that a normal blacksmith would get to work in such a smith

[Neon Knight]

If this is how long it takes to forge stuff, dwarves must have too much time on their hands...

[Fax Celestis]

Ok, now just tell me where a non adventurer gets 20 thousand gold.
A farmer earns about 10 GP a week, thats 40 a month, 480 a year
Even if a noble gets ten or twenty times that amount he would still need year to gather 20k because he has to pay for other things too

A magical blacksmith worth 10k would be in possession of a church of some god and one of the greatest relics of that church
No way that a normal blacksmith would get to work in such a smith

It's called a "loan."

[ocato]

What farmer or minor noble has adamantine armor?

[Neon Knight]

It's called a "loan."

Dispensed by the loan shark, a distant and feared relative of the land shark.

[Arbitrarity]

Simple.

Fabricate

[InaVegt]

And the fact crafting takes such a long time, or requires heavy investment in your business is why they triple the cost of materials for what they craft.

[Tola]

...So what's being said here is that the 'Craft' skills are basically useless, because barring extremely unlikely circumstances, the time is just too long to make anything worthwhile?

....WONDERFUL.

[sleeping fishy]

what i do is i say that craft is just to make the -item-, mithril is extra -material cost-... it just costs more, doesnt take any longer than crafting a NORMAL breastplate... just gotta use mithril instead of normal steel and stuff, which costs more...

[Fax Celestis]

...So what's being said here is that the 'Craft' skills are basically useless, because barring extremely unlikely circumstances, the time is just too long to make anything worthwhile?

....WONDERFUL.

Yeah, pretty much.

[InaVegt]

...So what's being said here is that the 'Craft' skills are basically useless, because barring extremely unlikely circumstances, the time is just too long to make anything worthwhile?

....WONDERFUL.

One wonderful word: Fabricate

Beside that, there are several cheaper things which can be made in a much shorter time, it takes 2 days to create a suit of padded leather when you have just a minor +6 bonus (which can be achieved easily at 1st level).

@sleeping fishy: maybe, because mithral is such a superior material it's also much more time consuming to work with.

[TheElfLord]

If this is how long it takes to forge stuff, dwarves must have too much time on their hands...

Well they do live for hundreds of years. If a human lives to be about 70, and a dwarf to 350, then the amount of time it take a dwarf to make that breast plate is about 80% less of their life than it would be for a human.

...So what's being said here is that the 'Craft' skills are basically useless, because barring extremely unlikely circumstances, the time is just too long to make anything worthwhile?

....WONDERFUL.

Depends how you define worthwhile. I mean if mithral is suposed to be a rare and expensive material to work with it would take a long time. Items made out of less exotic materials are much more reasonable. On the other hand, if you meant worthless as a way for a PC to make money, than in general yes, considering that there are many quicker ways for an adventurer to get some cash.

[Tola]

Mmmmh...

2 days for Padded.

How about other main armours? Include Masterwork in this, please.

You must understand that this is a character matter: I've put points into Craft Weaponsmith and Armoursmith, to represent the skill to repair, maintain, and if necessary, make his own equipment, top of his potential 'list' being Masterworks than can be used by others, or sold, or handed off to be enchanted later('Magic items needing to be masterwork' is the logic.) It's going to look damm silly if a warrior who says he can make/repair his equip, apparently can't.

[InaVegt]

Mmmmh...

2 days for Padded.

How about other main armours? Include Masterwork in this, please.

You must understand that this is a character matter: I've put points into Craft Weaponsmith and Armoursmith, to represent the skill to repair, maintain, and if necessary, make his own equipment, top of his potential 'list' being Masterworks than can be used by others, or sold, or handed off to be enchanted later('Magic items needing to be masterwork' is the logic.) It's going to look damm silly if a warrior who says he can make/repair his equip, apparently can't.

I'm going to assume a 5th level character with +2 int mod now (for a total mod of +10)

A standard full plate takes 41 + 2/3 weeks

A standard breastplate takes 6 + 2/3 weeks

A standard chainmail takes 25 days

A standard heavy steel shield takes 6 days

A standard small wooden shield takes 1 day

Creating a masterwork armor or shield adds 3¼ week to the total.

Weapons are slightly more difficult to extrapolate as they don't have easy formulas.

[Tor the Fallen]

Ok, now just tell me where a non adventurer gets 20 thousand gold.

Venture capitalists.


Also, would a bunch of apprentices all using aid another factor into this equation?

For the machine shop in your pocket:
Get some Dedicated Wrights (homonculus constructs) that can build items (magical ones too) using your craft check, as long as you spend an hour with them casting the appropriate spells, metamagic feats, and givng them the raw materials.

Stuff them and the raw materials in a portable hole.

Put the portable hole in your pocket.

???

Profit.

[sleeping fishy]

or FROM adventurers... lol.

or maybe by being a retired adventuer??

[Forks]

Makes you wonder why there arent more wizard craftsmen cranking out equipment and selling it cheaper than all those hard working dwarves.

[goat]

Ok, a level 1, human, commoner Blacksmith. 4 ranks in Craft(whatever), skill focus. He's 18, starting out in a simple forge left to him by an uncle.

Assuming a decent intelligence, but nothing really special, give them a +1.

That's a +8 to start with.

Give them an apprentice/assistant for another +2, assuming they're competant.

That's +10, giving an easy 20 when taking 10.

So, that's an income of between 22-40 GP a week. Not a great amount, but
more than most would get.

After his first month, he's saved up enough to get some masterwork
tools for another +2. This takes them to 28.6-48.4 GP a week.

At the end of their first year, they've easily made over 1000GP. The DMG
tells me this is the cost of a small house, and more than a level 1
would be expected to own. Our little smith is doing pretty well and he's been banking a lot of money.

He buys (or trades for) a ring of +2 crafting, it costs him a lot, but
it boosts his modifier to +14, and thus income up to 36-57.6 GP a week.

He's now almost certain of an income of around 2000 GP a year. If he levels a few times, gets some better stat boosting items, he could probably get to +20 without too much issue in 5 years.

Smith is now 23, and earns 63-90 GP a week. That's 3-4000 a year. Him and his little family live a life of relative luxury. A minor magical forge is within his reach, Giving him a +5 or more bonus if he can find a mage who will build him one. If he can, his income goes up ever further.

By the time he's about 35, and known for his skills across a relatively wide area, I could see him having earned enough for the magical forge and +10 ring.

[Tor the Fallen]

What if you got a 100 apprentices to all aid you? Typically, there's a relationship between how much capital and how many employees you have- marginal something or other. There are no such rules for that in D&D, so hypothetically, you have a million commoners all helping use the same scale.

Better yet, forge fine constructs to aid you. Go go nanobots!

[Fax Celestis]

What if you got a 100 apprentices to all aid you? Typically, there's a relationship between how much capital and how many employees you have- marginal something or other. There are no such rules for that in D&D, so hypothetically, you have a million commoners all helping use the same scale.

Better yet, forge fine constructs to aid you. Go go nanobots!

There are rules for that. //points to DMG-II.

[Tyger]

Maybe I'm being obtuse here, but I fail to see why crafting a Mithril breastplate would take so much longer (orders of magnitude longer) than a steel breastplate.

I understand the Craft rules specify to use the cost of the item, but it just seem illogical to assume that you could make 10 steel breastplates in the time it takes to make one Mithril one.

Personally, I think I'd be houseruling this one (never come up in game before) to simply be the cost of the base item (plus materworking) rather than including the cost of the special materials. Hell, a mage can enchant that breastplate to a disgusting level (420,000GP worth of enchantments) in the same time that it takes the smith to make it??? Just seems really counter intuitive to me.