Paladin of Death and Destruction

[Gorbash]

So, I'm leading a campaign for 4 players lvl 7. One of the player is a paladin. A mounted one. He has all the mounted combat feats (ride by attack, power attack etc) and, he has access to paladin spells. The ones he's chosen are (I mean, the ones he always uses) are: rhino rush and divine sacrifice.

So, what happens when he charges with a lance? Tonight we had a situation in which he almost killed my Rakshasa villain by dealing him 105 damage in one round. Without the rhino rush.

So, my question is, how do rhino rush, spirited charge combine with magic weapon, power attack and smite? How does it all add up? Since now he can deal ~200 damage in one round. It's really a gamebreaking situation... Fortunately, it was really late, so we stopped in the middle of the combat, but I really think we messed something up, since this is not possible.

Up until now, we calculated that all str bonuses, all power attack damage, all magic item enhancments (he has a +1 lance) and lance base damage are multiplied by 3 (spirited charge) and then added 5d6 from divine sacrifice resulting in 105 damage in one round.

[Tor the Fallen]

It looks like you're doing the math right.

A few solutions would be flying monsters and places he can't charge. Also, having creatures with longspears set against a charge and this feat would work nicely. As long as they're ogres or something, so they have 15' reach.

Have enemies target the horse, which probably has lower HP and AC than the pally. That should give him pause to rush heedlessly into battle.

Terrain that slows movement speed (such as rubble) would prevent a charge, as would environments with low cielings (such a tunnel). Ladders and stairs could really mess things up, as well.

If an opponent gets closer than 10 feet, they can't be charged.

As per RAW, ride by attack doesn't actually let you charge and ride-by an opponent. There was a thread somewhere about that.

[Gorbash]

I wasn't asking how to deal with him. I was just asking is it actually possible to pull out this stunt to deal 100+ damage in one round at lvl 7.

[Tor the Fallen]

I wasn't asking how to deal with him. I was just asking is it actually possible to pull out this stunt to deal 100+ damage in one round at lvl 7.

Damage that comes from dice sources above and beyond the weapon are not multiplied (such as sneak attack dice, flaming, powerful charge, etc). Power attack, strength, and other modifiers are.

So I think it would look like 3(1d8 (weapon) + 14 (two handed full pwr atk) + 1.5*str mod + 1 (weapon enhancement) + 7 (smite))

Assuming 16 str, that's 3(4.5+14+4.5+1+7)= 93

[Gorbash]

He has 15 STR, actually, so it's "only" 88. Add the 5d6 from Divine Sacrifice spell and you have a game breaking move.

[Matthew]

Yes, this sort of damage is possible and exceedable, especially via Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, etc... It's almost required by Level 7+ to compete with Full Spell Casters.

Ogres with Long Spears would have 20' Reach by the by, Reach Weapons double Reach, they don't just add 5'.

[Counterpower]

I don't really think it's game-breaking. Just be sure, from time to time, to put in enemies that he can't do that to. Example: one of the wizard PCs in my game took a PHBII variant that gives him immediate-action teleport effects. Very short range, but still. They were all howling with laughter as I described the dragon continuously missing the wizard as he teleported from place to place. There are plenty of ways to counter this damage-dealing paladin, honestly.

[Gorbash]

What kind of a spellcaster can dish out that much damage in one round? I think I'll throw him in the next session lol.

It's not the point to find something that can take him out. It ruins the fun of the game. And for the other players and me. Imagine the look on their faces when their party member single-handedly takes out almost everything I throw at them. And I spend a lot of time thinking of new and intresting encounters just to have them all annihilated in a matter of seconds.

[Matthew]

Spell Casters, sadly, don't need to. They have more subtle means of doing you in. Saying that, a Wizard 10 with a Maximised Fireball will do a straight 60 HP to everyone in the area of effect.

[ArmorArmadillo]

Basics:
Flat damage bonuses (Power Attack, STR bonus, Magic Weapon Enhancement) are multiplied.
Bonus Dice (Divine Sacrifice) are not multiplied
Multipliers add together to determine the multiplier (x3 + x2 = x4)

Context:
If our Paladin Pal charged an opponent while mounted with a +1 lance and spirited charge (Let's say with a STR 17) and power attacking for 4 and smiting evil and hits: 3d8(Weapon Damage x3)+12(1.5 Str Bonusx3)+24(Twice Power Attackx3)+3(Enhancement Bonusx3)+21(Smite Evilx3)=3d8+60 (Avg. 73)

Same Situation with Rhino's Rush Cast: Multiply everything by 4 instead of 3: 4d8+16+32+4+28=4d8+80 (Avg. 98)

Same Situation with Divine Sacrifice and Rhino's Rush Cast: Add divine Strike damage after all multipliers were added 4d8+80+5d6 (Avg. 115)


So there you have it, with rideby attack this guy can pretty much do Diablo II worthy damage.

Solutions: Anything that flies, a creature with the Elusive Target feat (CWar, allows you to negate power attacks), things that aren't evil (No Smiting), and really really high ACs.

I mean, let's be fair, we can't have Paladins going crazy and making it impossible for the Wizard to shine.

[mikeejimbo]

What kind of a spellcaster can dish out that much damage in one round? I think I'll throw him in the next session lol.

Do you count save or die spells? I don't know if any are available at ECL 7, though.

[Gorbash]

Yeah, but to cast maximized fireball you need to be a lvl 11 wizard.

And what can a 7th lvl wizard do to a Rakshasa with a 27 spell resistance? This guy kills him outright. Thank god on his first charge he actually missed, because Rakshasa was incorporeal, and that was the charge with the rhino rush. He would be dead on spot. This way, he managed to get away with 2 hp.

And I made a fatal mistake of letting him have a flying mount. So he can charge basically, everything. And after that horrible, horrible charge he just moves away another 60 feet...

[MeklorIlavator]

The wizard can use non-SR spells, like the orbs, or assay resistanc+Arcane Mastery (gives a total of 20+caster level vs spell resistance). He acn also take the Spell penetration feats.

[Tor the Fallen]

There are some brutal save or suck ones, like the ever popular metamagic'd ray of enfeeblement.

Confusion would make the paladin's head spin, fear would make him pee his pants and run away (or his mount!), fascinate could potentially mess the whole party up. A few enervations would really ruin the paladin's day, especially if you hit him with fear afterwards.

Black tentacles would really cause his horse problems. Solid fog would also ruin his day. Two rays of exhaustion on the horse would mean he could no longer carry the fullplate paladin without being encumbered.

Heck, a flying wizard that cast solid fog + stinking cloud + lots of fireballs would be a TPK.

[Matthew]

Whoops, yeah Level 11. Sorry, didn't realise you meant the party Wizard; as these folk above say you use more subtle spells, save for one item - Tor - Paladin's are immune to Fear!

[Tor the Fallen]

Tor - Paladin's are immune to Fear!

Doh!
Yeah, alright, um, confusion and sleep spells then.

[TheElfLord]

Also remember that the Pally can't charge every round. The first round he charges, the second round he moves away, the thrid round he charges again. So while technically he dealt 105 damage a round, his average damage is only 52.5 a round because he can only charge every other round.

Another thing to remember is that charging only allows one attack. Sure it deals a lot of damage, but during the first round of fighting that barbarian with a great sword can charge to, and use the power attack goodness. Then in round 2, while the pally is moving away, he attacks twice more. Two more attacks in round three. So the barbarian gets 5 attacks to the pally's 2. The Pally may be dealing more damage each attack, but I don't think it would be hard to make a 7th level barb that can do an average of 52.5 damage per round with a full attack.

[Tor the Fallen]

Also remember that the Pally can't charge every round. The first round he charges, the second round he moves away, the thrid round he charges again. So while technically he dealt 105 damage a round, his average damage is only 52.5 a round because he can only charge every other round.

Another thing to remember is that charging only allows one attack. Sure it deals a lot of damage, but during the first round of fighting that barbarian with a great sword can charge to, and use the power attack goodness. Then in round 2, while the pally is moving away, he attacks twice more. Two more attacks in round three. So the barbarian gets 5 attacks to the pally's 2. The Pally may be dealing more damage each attack, but I don't think it would be hard to make a 7th level barb that can do an average of 52.5 damage per round with a full attack.

With flyby attack, he can charge past.

[sleeping fishy]

ummm, with rideby attack you can move away after a charge on the same round...

[Matthew]

Yep. He's Riding a Flying Mount, not Flying himself, though his Mount would need Fly By Attack if it wanted to attack at the same time.

[Renegade Paladin]

Damage that comes from non-dice sources above and beyond the weapon are not multiplied (such as sneak attack dice, flaming, powerful charge, etc). Power attack, strength, and other modifiers are.

So I think it would look like 3(1d8 (weapon) + 14 (two handed full pwr atk) + 1.5*str mod + 1 (weapon enhancement) + 7 (smite))

Assuming 16 str, that's 3(4.5+14+4.5+1+7)= 93

Smite evil is multiplied on a critical, lance charge, or whatever else; it is not a bonus dice pool, but rather a fixed value.

[Tor the Fallen]

Smite evil is multiplied on a critical, lance charge, or whatever else; it is not a bonus dice pool, but rather a fixed value.

Oops, that was what I meant. Put in too many negatives on the edit.

[Gorbash]

Umm, I don't understand what you mean that he can move past his target on the next round... I mean, what would be the point of ride-by attack then? He could just charge his opponent, and withdraw in the next round. The effect is the same. RAW states clearly that he moves away from his target when he charges it. So, by my interpretation he can charge every round, though I try not to let him...

[TheElfLord]

Yeah that was me not reading the original post thoroughly.

One solution would be to place enemies in positions where he can't move past them during a charge, such as in front of a wall.

[Tor the Fallen]

Umm, I don't understand what you mean that he can move past his target on the next round... I mean, what would be the point of ride-by attack then? He could just charge his opponent, and withdraw in the next round. The effect is the same. RAW states clearly that he moves away from his target when he charges it. So, by my interpretation he can charge every round, though I try not to let him...

Charge
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move.

Movement During a Charge
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)

The closest space means that you'll move up, and have a creature in your way, meaning you can no longer continue on your charge.

[DSCrankshaw]

The closest space means that you'll move up, and have a creature in your way, meaning you can no longer continue on your charge.

Ride-by Attack

Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard action and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge)...

This feat makes no sense if you can't move past. It may be in some cases he's in the way, but often, in fact, probably most of the time, the closest space still leaves a clear path.

[Matthew]

This was in the FAQ. You can use Ride By Attack in the way intended, you do not need to halt after contact with the enemy during a Charge. [Edit] Hmnn, actually not so much. I'm sure I have seen this addressed, maybe in Rules of the Game? Where's that Beholder? He'll know.

[Tor the Fallen]

Ride-by Attack

Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard action and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge)...

This feat makes no sense if you can't move past. It may be in some cases he's in the way, but often, in fact, probably most of the time, the closest space still leaves a clear path.

I'm just saying, if the DM wants to be really pissy, ride-by attack doesn't actually work by RAW. RAI, yes. RAW, nope, as any straight line to the closest square adjacent to the creature puts the creature squarely in the way of riding by. You can't charge through, and as per the rules of charge, you can't charge past, since it's not a straight line to the closest square, and you can't charge around unless you've got that psychic charge feat.

[DSCrankshaw]

Umm, yeah, but geometry doesn't always work in your example. Let's see if this will display properly.

X1....
.2...P

Player P wants to charge enemy X. The closest point where he can attack from is not square 1, but square 2, which allows him to do a ride-by attack per the rules. So the DM could deny the possibility when the geometry works in his favor, but not when the geometry works in the player's favor.

[ByeLindgren]

Just wait until he PrCs into Cavalier...

I actually played this type of Paladin back when I played silly DnD (that is to say, so much hack and slash that it becomes silly). The damage totals flying around during those encounters were pretty ridiculous. It may seem counterintuitive, but the DM responded to the crazy damage by giving me some big juicy targets to kill. He just made sure they had enough HP so I got my big numbers while the rest of the party could get their fun as well. The ogre chieftain wasn't just at -40 in one hit - he was paralyzed, poisoned, burnt, zapped, turned to stone, sent to another plane (wait, was our party a prismatic wall?).

That campaign ended when my Pally finally caught the evil Wizard PC doing evil Wizardy things (stabbing a beggar for the hell of it, actually). It's too bad those juicy smite charges do nothing against Mirror Images (hint).

Of course, that game, while a fond memory, didn't really emphasize the 'roleplay' in 'roleplaying game.' Your game dynamic might be too different to get any meaningful analogues. Fighting smart mages all the time might be boring, or over the heads of this party. Seriously pumping the HP of the villains while giving them glaring weaknesses the other party members can exploit might look like ham-fisted Rule 0 abuse to your charger (to me, it was just more meat to shish kebab). You might not have gotten a single useful idea from me. This could have even derailed the thread. Oh well, good luck.