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2016-06-28, 10:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
While you have a point, I still think the quote answers a question that is now moot. The question is, why is Durkon able to cast evil spells. We now know it is the HPoH spirit pulling the strings, and Hel granting the spells; so this discussion is redundant with the comic. We could revert to the question, why can Durkon cast any spell at all without praying first; the quote, however, doesn't answer that question at all (the answer is in the SRD but not in the quote). We could move to a side subject addressed by the quote (do non-theistic clerics exist) but the answer to this question is also redundant with the comic.
So, inclusion of this quote is no longer justified. For the purpose of enhancing the Index through reducing clutter, I vote remove.DM in Mummy's Mask I, II, III | Keshkaru and Ozkrak in Extinction Curse | Marzena in Age of Worms | Elrembriel in Wrath of the Righteous | Gurmok in Nightmare in Katapesh | DM in Catacombs of Ravenloft Avatar courtesy of Neoseph7
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2016-06-29, 12:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Personally, I find Kalmegil's argument convincing. I vote for it to remain (since, like littlebum, I also still feel rather sad about last week).
Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends
Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.
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2016-06-29, 12:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
I vote keep for the reasons mentioned, and since it is interesting when considering historical arguments on the forums.
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2016-06-29, 12:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2014
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
I vote remain.
The stars predict tomorrow you'll wake up, do a bunch of stuff, and then go back to sleep.~ That's your horoscope for today.
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2016-06-29, 01:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- Oregon, USA
Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2016-06-29, 08:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Keep. Is apparently too short.
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2016-06-29, 10:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Last edited by Kish; 2016-06-29 at 10:07 AM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2016-06-29, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
I don't find it particularly compelling. Circumstances change. Quotes that were useful once aren't particularly any more. The usability of the index to find any specific quote goes down the more we have, so if we have a quote that doesn't tell us anything unique, why would we keep it just because it used to?
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2016-06-29, 11:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
None of the so-called changed circumstances cited in support of removal are actually relevant to the usefulness of the quote. This quote does tell us something unique. The sources people cite as duplicative aren't actually definitive, as witnessed by the fact that the Giant's post was necessary in the first place.
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2016-06-29, 11:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
ungelic is us
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2016-06-29, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
But neither of those pieces of information definitively answer the question. Both, combined with perceived ambiguity in the SRD, leave different theories open. The fact that the Giant endorses this interpretation is information absolutely unavailable to us without reference to the quote.
Let's imagine a conversation without this quote. Someone says, "How did Durkon cast spells on the day he turned." People point to the SRD, as well as Hel and non-theistic clerics in specific comics. People point out that this doesn't go to the question of Durkon casting spells that day. Absent the quote, the dispute is unresolvable. With the quote, we get the Giant's interpretation of the rule and a clear indication that this interpretation is in play in the world of the comic.
We don't cite that quote because it contains information about the SRD. We don't cite it because it proves one particular interpretation is correct. We cite it because it proves how the Giant interprets the SRD.Last edited by Kalmegil; 2016-06-29 at 11:32 AM.
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2016-06-29, 11:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- The land of corn
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Keep it.
Also, new quote, who dis?
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2016-06-29, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2016-06-29, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
You know what? I challenge.
Behold, every comment that referred to the vampire and his spellcasting ability before the Giant started forming his response:
Spoiler: Numerous
So please, tell me where exactly someone says, "How is he casting spells? He should be fallen and spell-less!" Hell, only one comment even questioned the validity of the vampire's spellcasting ability, and it didn't read nearly what you claim it did.
What was replied to was as follows:
I read that as "Durkon no longer follows a deity, and as such cannot cast spells yet." The Giant seems to have also read it as such, because that's the only thing he alludes to in his response. You seem to think there is a different question being asked, and while your interpretation is not invalid, it does go against what the Giant said in response. As such, your objection makes no sense to me whatsoever.
Regardless of original intent, the question as answered by the Giant was "why can the vampire cast spells?" This is answered in the quote, but is also answered in the SRD, and in the comic specifically (both by him being a cleric of Hel's, and also by having specifically non-theistic clerics who can cast spells). Both of which render the quote entirely redundant, as any similar question can be answered by pointing to the comic alone, and further supported by the SRD.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2016-06-29, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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2016-06-29, 12:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2016-06-29, 12:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
We apparently disagree on whether those two statements are functionally equivalent. (Maybe it's my using the word "fallen" for a single-classed cleric who can't cleric?) Anyway. Quotation marks don't always denote a direct quote, nor were they meant to in this case. Rich addressed "Durkon no longer follows a deity, and as such cannot cast spells yet." (And this time, I know someone said exactly that, so no one can object to the quotation marks. Though they still can object to the timeframe of someone saying that--bah, whatever. The point is, it addressed a question a lot of people had and there's no good reason to remove it. Let the record also state that I am not trying to convince Keltest unless I specifically indicate I am.)
Last edited by Kish; 2016-06-29 at 12:58 PM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2016-06-29, 12:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
If you're not actually going to address my position, why quote my post in yours?
Also, this quote absolutely deals with Rich's own rules for vampirism. Specifically, he's telling us that this part of the SRD--as he interprets it in the post--is part of those rules.
As for Peelee's "challenge" (sorry, "challenge *eyeroll*), the usefulness of the quote isn't limited to the precise conversation that immediately preceded it, nor was that the only conversation that occurred about the topic.
Again, no one has addressed the fact that this quote contains specific information not available elsewhere: that the Giant is relying on those specific aspects of the SRD as part of his custom vampirism rules.
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2016-06-29, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Ok, hows this then: The Giant deliberately made that comment to hide the fact that Durkon was possessed by an evil spirit, and as such we can draw no definitive conclusions about how he is using the RAW from the post. It specifically deals with how he could do so, if he wanted to, but that isn't what he ended up doing.
And even if he did, I would question the usefulness of that information because Rich hasn't given a crap about what the rules say for a long time.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2016-06-29, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Let me restate my question. Who had that question? Who believed that the vampire could not cast spells for reasons other than an incorrect belief in the rules?
As for Peelee's "challenge" (sorry, "challenge *eyeroll*), the usefulness of the quote isn't limited to the precise conversation that immediately preceded it, nor was that the only conversation that occurred about the topic.
Let me get this straight. In Order of the Stick, which is standard 3.5 except when it isn't, you're saying that we need explicit comment from the author when something does keep to standard 3.5? Do you realize the inherent ridiculouseness of this?
Further, please tell me what usefulness exactly the comment gives that cannot be gleaned from the comic itself.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2016-06-29, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
I just couldn't help thinking of this scene.
Credit to you if you were deliberately invoking it.
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2016-06-29, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-06-29, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2016-06-29, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Originally Posted by Keltest
Let me restate my answer: that's irrelevant. The standard is potential usefulness in forum discussions, not usefulness in the discussion that led up to the quote. Otherwise, of course, quotes from the Giant not in response to a discussion could never be included.
Let me get this straight. In Order of the Stick, which is standard 3.5 except when it isn't, you're saying that we need explicit comment from the author when something does keep to standard 3.5? Do you realize the inherent ridiculouseness of this?
For the record, it's the second one. The Giant has a set of rules related to vampirism. Some of these rules contradict the SRD. Some extend beyond the SRD without contradicting it. Some are within the SRD. Knowing that some rules are within the Giant's milieu is information not available absent the quote. (And no, knowing Durkon is now a priest of Hel, and that there are non-theistic clerics doesn't tell us what the quote tells us.)
So I have nowhere said we need an explicit comment from the author every time something does keep to standard 3.5. I have said that, in this instance, where non-SRD rules are currently in play alongside SRD rules, knowing that is useful.
Further, please tell me what usefulness exactly the comment gives that cannot be gleaned from the comic itself.
The information provided by the quote is that the Giant, who has created a set of vampirism rules well beyond those set forth in the SRD (some of which contradict the SRD), has stated that he is specifically following several specific rules.
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2016-06-29, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Why yes, I am quite comfortable making that statement.
Perhaps, but when youre making an argument based on a hypothetical lack of understanding, it weakens your argument when nobody, even the people involved in the discussion that generated that quote, demonstrated that lack of understanding.
The rules that he was referencing are separate from his vampire rules though. He is using non-theistic cleric rules, as evidenced by the non-theistic clerics, but Durkon is not one of them, and his vampirism is entirely separate from what would happen if he were to suddenly find himself without a god for real.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2016-06-29, 01:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
And he clarified his opinion in later statements to be much more nuanced than that. For instance, especially paragraphs 3 and 4. And paragraph 5 shows exactly why the quote in question is useful: the Giant follows D&D rules except when he doesn't. Explicit statements about this are useful.
Either way, Rich not caring about the rules is irrelevant to determining the usefulness of the information he provides about what rules he is using.
I think we've rehashed the rest of the issues you address in your post enough for now, so I'll stand on what I've said so far.Last edited by Kalmegil; 2016-06-29 at 01:58 PM.
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2016-06-29, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Per your own helpfully provided quote, we can safely assume that he is using the rules as written except in instances where we can point out a deviation has occurred, in which case an explanation for how the changed rules work might be helpful. But this isn't such an explanation, he's just using the Rules as Written for the subject, and I don't see how keeping a quote of him pointing to the SRD is all that informative of anything.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2016-06-29, 02:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
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2016-06-29, 02:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2016-06-29, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008