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2016-07-19, 12:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Since I believe this makes a new page, reminder that there's a vote going on:
We can certainly discuss it....You would need to rally enough support to get Rule A modified with an exemption for already-Indexed quotes, of course, but that would be the purpose of the discussion.
Only now, at the end, do you understand....That guideline will be stricken if the vote passes, so this could indeed be its end.FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2016-07-19, 12:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Yes. .
DM in Mummy's Mask I, II, III | Keshkaru and Ozkrak in Extinction Curse | Marzena in Age of Worms | Elrembriel in Wrath of the Righteous | Gurmok in Nightmare in Katapesh | DM in Catacombs of Ravenloft Avatar courtesy of Neoseph7
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2016-07-19, 10:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-07-19, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Yes. Though there is now some redundancy between rules F and H, and once it's the "index-keeper", once the "curator". But I think that's just cosmetic, the rules are clear.
Ares - Music and sounds system for roleplaying
Avatar by Rich Burlew.
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2016-07-19, 01:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2016-07-19, 01:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Scientific Name: Wombous apocolypticus | Diet: Apocolypse Pie | Cuddly: Yes
World Building Projects:
Magic: The Stuff of Sentience | Fate: The Fabric of Physics | Luck: The Basis of Biology
Order of the Stick Projects:
Annotation of the Comic | Magic Compendium of the Comic | Transcription of the Comic
Dad-a-chum? Dum-a-chum? Ded-a-chek? Did-a-chick?
Extended Signature | My DeviantArt | Majora's Mask Point Race
(you can't take the sky from me)
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2016-07-19, 02:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2016-07-22, 08:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Well that was straightforward enough....
- The rule revision passed; 9 for, 0 against.
The Index rules have been updated.
Well, Rule F has been there for quite some time (the "curator" thing hadn't really taken off outside the Class and Level Geekery threads yet, if I recall)...and as for redundancy, I rechecked with the Department of Redundancy Department and Rule E does not apply to rules (and I really didn't want to start labelling things "informative, not normative"...).
I suppose revising Rule F is an option...but as you noted it's probably not worth the effort it'd take to get it done.FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2016-07-28, 09:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
So, should the quote that was unexpectedly removed under the old rule be readded, or do we need another vote for that?
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2016-07-28, 09:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
So now that the vote has passed I will raise this again to see if anyone agrees with the above proposal.
I would say a second vote would be needed - retroactively applying new rules seems like it could be cumbersome ... should all other decisions (if any have ever occured) also be reviewed in light of the new rules (and while I would have been in favour of keeping it had I voted others may not have voted as they felt they had won without having to post).Last edited by dancrilis; 2016-07-28 at 09:51 AM.
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2016-07-28, 10:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
It was removed. It's removed.
That said, the change in removal procedure (such as "having a removal procedure") would justify bringing removed entries back into discussion for re-inclusion normally, if anyone wants to go that route.
In fact, here, have a (not necessarily complete) list of entries that were removed without replacement:
Removed Entries Crystal is a Flesh Golem #972 01/13/2015 Vampire Durkon Can Cast Spells
A cleric doesn't have to worship a deity to cast spells.#883 04/09/2013 Durkon Throws Diamond Dust
Durkon threw diamond dust into the air in 844.#844 03/09/2012 Orrin Draketooth's Daughter
She's not Haley.#816 11/21/2011 Haley's Boots of Speed
Yes, she did get them dyed to match her brown/tan garb.#793 05/29/2011 FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2016-07-28, 12:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Because of the historical record of how Rich answers fan speculations like these, and because of their insight into the forum's understanding of the comic at the time the quotes occurred (and the insight into which kinds of speculation or confusion causes Rich to step in with definitive statements), I'll be the first (and probably only) to suggest re-integration of all of them.
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2016-07-28, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
I see no particular reason to re-include any of them. One of them was only just voted out, and the others are all just the Giant clarifying someone's misreading of the comic/D&D rules.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2016-07-28, 02:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
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2016-07-28, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2016-07-28, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2016-07-28, 04:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
+1.
All these quotes were removed due to redundancy with in-comic information. They're just as redundant as they were when voted upon. They might add something to the type of purpose SaintRidley mentioned (such as insight on how the Giant historically responded to the forum), but they add nothing to the stated purpose of the Index.DM in Mummy's Mask I, II, III | Keshkaru and Ozkrak in Extinction Curse | Marzena in Age of Worms | Elrembriel in Wrath of the Righteous | Gurmok in Nightmare in Katapesh | DM in Catacombs of Ravenloft Avatar courtesy of Neoseph7
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2016-07-28, 07:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-07-29, 09:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Since the current discussion is whether or not to mass-reinclude deleted quotes... I'm against that idea. They were removed for a reason, even if at the time they followed different removal procedures than what is in place now.
If somebody wanted to talk about a specific quote and give specific reasons why it should be re-added, I would be more open to listening to arguments.John Ling
Frog God Games Lead Pathfinder Developer
Note: unless explicitly stated otherwise, opinions in my posts are my own and not those of Frog God Games.
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2016-07-29, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Agreed. The list was a "hey, who if anyone thinks we should include any of these again?"...which of course involves discussing each quote on its own merits.
I don't think anyone's actually said "we should include these just because they were included before," though. But at the same time, while I understand that SaintRidley's criteria (criterium? criterion?) appears to be "the Giant said something about the comic or its development process", in the absence of a successful push to make the rules conform solely to that view it doesn't rise the level of being the quote's own merits.FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2016-07-29, 11:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Of those removes I would say there is most reason to return this one:
My rational is that this shows why the diamond dust was purchased.
Normally Resurrection requires 'A sprinkle of holy water and diamonds worth a total of at least 10,000 gp' where diamond dust is used for Stoneskin, Restoration or Nondetection (from SRD).
As such knowing what happened to some of the dust and how diamonds are not needed for resurrection means that if needed Vaarsuvius may have sufficent spell ingredients for the other spells (from the Wizard list - (40 casting of stoneskin would raise Durkon for example).
Alternatively if they need to avoid detection Vaarsuvius may now be out of dust after pooling it to try to raise the Draketooth.
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2016-07-29, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
I was about to agree to all this, but had a nagging thought in the back of my mind, and upon research, confirmed it.
Showing why the diamond dust was purchased, as well as confirming it to be a valid material requirement for casting Resurrection, is confirmed in-comic in literally the first word bubble of the first panel of the very next strip.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2016-07-29, 04:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
DM in Mummy's Mask I, II, III | Keshkaru and Ozkrak in Extinction Curse | Marzena in Age of Worms | Elrembriel in Wrath of the Righteous | Gurmok in Nightmare in Katapesh | DM in Catacombs of Ravenloft Avatar courtesy of Neoseph7
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2016-07-29, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Next to the Mandolinist
Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Rereading each of those five, these are my current impressions on them:
Crystal is a Flesh Golem: The quote is literally "It's not a revenant. It's a flesh golem. Give it up already." It was in response to someone claiming Crystal was a revenant in Comic 972, where Haley says, "I thinks she's some weird new kind of flesh golem" after Crystal is shown to not be affected by holy water. Multiple comics then later outright state she's a golem/flesh golem/"Crystal" golem/made by a known golem-maker. That quote adds nothing that can't be proven multiple times (in more detail, even!) by linking to several strips between #972 and #980. I feel there's no reason to add it back in.
Vampire Durkon can Cast Spells: In comic #883, The Giant links to RAW which says that vampire clerics do not lose their ability to cast spells, and it was in response to someone claiming that "The author has [taken] artistic license [...] too far." I like the part where The Giant says "The only thing worse than the usual irrelevant rules pedantry is incorrect irrelevant rules pedantry" but, to be honest, this quote really doesn't have to do with the comic. It just really is correcting a false pedant who was claiming The Giant was a bad writer. Readers who care about the rules can be linked to the rules directly; readers who don't care about the rules won't care about the rules. I feel there's little reason to add it back in.
Durkon Throws Diamond Dust: Comic #844, all The Giant says is "The stuff Durkon is throwing in the air in Panel #6 is diamond dust" in response to "Isn't a diamond needed for Resurrection?" The next comic strip (first panel) pretty clearly answers that. I don't think there's a reason for it to be added back in.
Orrin Draketooth's Daughter: Comic #816. Later comics definitely answer this (because the Draketeeth are all dead) and earlier comics also answer this (because Haley is definitely not fifteen years old). The only line in this quote I feel could be worth keeping record of is "In fact, I put the line about it being 15 years in specifically to avoid people speculating that it was Haley." I don't know what question this would answer, so it may not be important enough to put back in.
Haley's Boots of Speed: The Giant confirms that the dyed boots were, in fact, the Boots of Speed. "I thought that was pretty obvious" is how he said it; I thought it was pretty obvious, too, because Haley tells them to dye the lime green boots, and the only lime green boots in the comics are the Lime Green Boots of Speed. Later comics (when Haley uses them) confirms this. I can see the lines "What I can't figure out is why it matters enough to start a thread over." and "Just to make sure no one else thinks its a good idea to start a thread just to get me to answer, thread locked." as worth keeping. It answers the question "Does Rich think threads should be made to ask him questions that are already answered in the comic?" I wasn't around when this question was removed so I don't know why it was removed (or added in in the first place).
So, those are my opinions of each of the removed quotes, and whether they should be added back in. Except for possibly the last two, I don't think they should.Favorite sports:
Fencing
Football (Soccer)
Figure Skating
(and basically everything else that starts with 'f')ALSO! Come roleplay FFRPG in the Nexus!Nexus Characters.
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2016-07-29, 05:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
That was an excellent analysis. Thank you!
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2016-07-29, 05:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Agreed. Well said.
.
-.____________________
./___________________()-------Ron Miel
|...___________________--------sits down
|..| |_________________()-------and starts
|..|/__________________--------singing
| ___________________()-------about gold
.
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2016-07-29, 05:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Just thought of something that may not make everyone happy but it could be a useful compromise:
We could add a line or so to the first post saying something along the lines of "Rich has a history of directly answering the readers' questions and misunderstandings as they come up, even when the comic itself answers those questions shortly afterward." (Unless we already have this line there somewhere; I looked but couldn't find it.)Favorite sports:
Fencing
Football (Soccer)
Figure Skating
(and basically everything else that starts with 'f')ALSO! Come roleplay FFRPG in the Nexus!Nexus Characters.
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2016-07-30, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
I'd lie to point out that those comics were not removed "under the old rules." They were removed under an ad hoc procedure that was always controversial and never the subject of consensus. Also, at least one was removed with less than a majority.
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2016-07-30, 03:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
I agree with Greywolf, removed quotes should stay removed.
Spoiler
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2016-09-04, 08:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
You know, I could have sworn that we had a quote in the index about how Hel and the Dwarven Honor system work, and why characters who don't believe in dishonor the way Dwarves do aren't affected by it. Does anyone know where that got to?
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”