Unchained Summoner Mini-Guide

[CockroachTeaParty]

Unchained Summoner Mini-Guide

A fine guide to the standard Pathfinder Summoner from the Advanced Player’s Guide exists already (on these very forums, no less!), but with release of the Unchained Summoner from Pathfinder Unchained, I figured a re-examination and analysis was in order.

I will mostly concern myself with the changes to the summoner’s eidolon, and the revised spell list.

The changes in a nutshell

The Unchained Summoner is less powerful than the standard summoner, by design. The summoner has always been a controversial class, undeniably potent, and often banned. The unchained variant was an attempt to bring it back in line with some of the other classes in power. Whether they succeeded in this goal is up to debate; many of the primary problems with the summoner are still present with the unchained version: the action economy advantage of a functionally-immortal, extremely expendable beat-stick remains the primary strength (and problem) of the class. The spell list has been justifiably neutered, but is still pretty solid, and the extremely powerful Summon Monster SLA remains just as potent as it’s always been.

The main criticism I’ve seen of the unchained summoner is that it ‘limits the creativity of the player’ by shoe-horning the eidolon into a number of pre-made packages. Personally, I believe this sentiment is slightly overblown, as the eidolon still possesses quite a bit of potential for customization. It’s nowhere near the same ‘build your own monster’ toolbox as it was in the APG, but there are enough options to fill in an enormous number of concepts and roles.

Spoiler: Opinion

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Having played in actual, RL games with the standard APG summoner, I can honestly say I welcome the ‘eidolon subtypes’ in a certain way. Left to their own devices, I’ve seen traditional eidolons become incoherent amalgams of strange limbs akimbo. Making eidolons into angels, inevitables, and demons helps ground them in existing planar cosmology, and even provides a decent groundwork for RP potential. I doubt I’ll be able to sway your mind if the thought of eidolon subtypes works you up into a frothing rage, but I don’t think the situation is as dire as many claim.

Eidolon Changes

The main difference between the standard summoner and the unchained version concerns eidolons.

Base Statistics

The base statistics of eidolons are completely unchanged from their original version, save for one key difference: the unchained eidolons have fewer evolution points (EP). The original eidolon had 26 evolution points at level 20, while an unchained eidolon only has 15 at that level. This is quite the reduction! However, the hit isn’t as extreme as you might initially think, since the eidolon’s subtype comes with a number of ‘free’ or ‘prebuilt’ evolutions. Keeping track of the value of these free evolutions will help determine which subtypes are truly the most useful, especially if we use ’26 by level 20’ as our benchmark for standard eidolon power. Ideally, a subtype will provide around 11 EP worth of ‘freebies.’

One side note: due to the lower number of EP available to the eidolon, the summoner should heavily consider the benefits and drawbacks of the ‘aspect’ class feature. While putting evolutions on the summoner can be advantageous depending on a number of factors, every point siphoned from your eidolon means fewer offensive and defensive options for them.

The second major difference between unchained eidolons and their original version is the subtype system. The first major factor to keep in mind with eidolon subtypes is that they determine your eidolon’s base form (bipedal, quadruped, or serpentine) as well as access to certain natural attack evolutions. These limitations seem largely arbitrary, and might prove frustrating to eidolon purists. If there is one thing that hampers eidolon creativity the most out of the unchained rules, it is the base form and evolution selection limitations. You can’t have a serpentine angel eidolon! Why not? … Because!

Let’s go through the subtypes one by one, and see how they stack up. (Blue = great, green = good, black = okay, red = bad)

Spoiler

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Agathion
NG, biped or quadruped
1- resistance (electricity) (1 EP), +4 saves vs. poison & petrification (roughly 2 EP)

4 - cold resistance 10 and sonic resistance 10 (roughly 2 EP)

8 - lay on hands of a paladin with levels equal to HD. (difficult to rate, tentatively 4 EP)

12 - DR 5/evil (3 EP), true speech (about 4 EP), petrification immunity (roughly 2 EP)

16 - at-will Speak with Animals (roughly 4 EP), electricity immunity (2 EP)

20 - Detect Thoughts at-will SLA (roughly 5 EP), DR 10/evil (5 EP)

Rough total of free evolutions: 29 EP by level 20. Approximately 44 EP total.

The agathion emerges as a very strong choice. The value of its free evolutions is inflated somewhat by the usefulness of its SLA’s, which largely favor social situations. Aside from some pretty standard energy and status immunities and resistances, the main draw of the agathion is their lay on hands ability. Coming online at level 8, it remains useful throughout your career, valuable for healing allies, the summoner, and the eidolon itself. Healing eidolons can be a tricky business, so it’s awesome to have a built-in source of healing that refreshes every day.

This also qualifies your eidolon for feats such as Reward of Grace and Word of Healing.

The agathion makes a strong defensive pouncer or weapon-wielder, with dependable survivability, healing ability, and a dash of communication utility.

Angel
Any good, biped only
1- acid and cold resistance (2 EP), +4 saves vs. poison (roughly 1 EP)

4 - electricity and fire resistance 10 (roughly 2 EP)

8 - flight evolution (2 EP)

12 - DR 5/evil (3 EP), immunity to petrification (roughly 2 EP), true speech (roughly 4 EP)

16 - immunity to acid and cold (4 EP)

20 - protective aura ability (roughly 5 EP)

Approximate total of free evolutions by level 20: 21. Roughly 36 EP total.

The angel is perhaps the weakest subtype choice. Aside from some relatively standard immunities, there’s not a whole lot going for the angel. The bipedal-only restriction, combined with practically zero access to additional natural attack evolutions, forces the angel to spend resources on weapon proficiencies, pretty much forcing it into the slugger role.

Archon
LG, biped only
1- electricity resistance (1 EP), skilled (intimidate) (1 EP), +4 saves vs. poison (roughly 1 EP)

4 - 1 bonus EP

8 - ability increase evolution (2 EP)

12 - DR 5/evil (3 EP), immunity to petrification (roughly 2 EP), true speech (roughly 4 EP)

16 - electricity immunity (2 EP), aura of menace (roughly 4 EP)

20 - at-will Greater Teleport (roughly 5 EP)

Approximate total of free evolutions by level 20: 24. Roughly 39 EP total.

The archon, like the angel, is restricted to a weapon-based slugger build. They have more flexibility than the angel, but still have to spend precious resources on weapon proficiencies. The capstone ability is deceptive in its usefulness: the eidolon can’t teleport beyond the link range of his summoner or else he ‘dies.’ However, this is a great tool for the summoner’s Twin Eidolon capstone.

Azata
CG, bipedal or serpentine
1 - electricity resistance (1 EP), proficiency in martial weapons (4 EP)

4 - cold resistance 10 and fire resistance 10 (roughly 2 EP)

8 - flight evolution (2 EP)

12 - DR 5/evil (3 EP), immunity to petrification (roughly 2 EP), true speech (roughly 4 EP)

16 - electricity immunity (2 EP), ability increase evolution (2 EP)

20 - energy form (roughly 4-5 EP, possibly more if you’ve invested in boosting the flight evolution)

Approximate total of free evolutions by level 20: 25. Roughly 40 EP total.

The azata is an odd duck, yet deceptively good. What makes it stand out from the other celestials is the free martial weapon proficiency from the get-go: you should definitely be going for a weapon-based build. The biped makes a fine slugger, while the serpentine form makes a pretty good archer; yes, this is the archer eidolon form of choice!

The capstone ability is particularly strange, since the SLA evolutions got the axe. The eidolon essentially cannot attack while incorporeal, but the scouting potential of the form is great indeed. The true potential lies in the Twin Eidolon capstone; the summoner himself can take incorporeal form, then use his Summon Monster SLA to his heart’s content.

Daemon
NE, all forms
1 - acid resistance (1 EP), +4 saves vs. death, disease, and poison (roughly 3 EP)

4 - cold, electricity, and fire resistance 10 (roughly 3 EP)

8 - 1 bonus EP

12 - DR 5/good (3 EP), immunity to death effects, disease, and poison (roughly 6 EP)

16 - acid immunity (2 EP), telepathy (roughly 4 EP)

20 - soul-devouring death-knell-like ability (roughly 4 EP)

Approximate total of free evolutions by level 20: 23. Roughly 38 EP total.

The daemon isn’t especially flashy, but it’s got some solid defenses and total freedom of base form choice. The daemon is a decent ‘baseline’ for unchained eidolon power. One of the better choices for ‘building your own monster,’ the effectiveness of the daemon depends on your own evolution choices and feat selection.

Demon
CE, all forms
1 - electricity and fire resistance (2 EP), +4 saves against poison (roughly 1 EP)

4 - acid and cold resistance 10 (roughly 2 EP)

8 - poison immunity (roughly 2 EP), 1 bonus EP

12 - DR 5 /good (3 EP), ability increase evolution (2 EP)

16 - electricity immunity (2 EP), telepathy (roughly 4 EP)

20 - constant True Seeing (roughly 5 EP)

Approximate total of free evolutions by level 20: 22. Roughly 37 EP total.

Very similar to the daemon, the demon eidolon has great freedom of choice in base form and build potential. The daemon is a bit more defensive, while the demon has the more generally useful capstone. Like their daemon cousin, the demon has essentially no natural attack restrictions or limitations, so you should take advantage of maxing their number of attacks.

Devil
LE, biped only
1 - fire resistance (1 EP), skilled (Bluff) (1 EP), +4 saves vs. poison (roughly 1 EP)

4 - acid and cold resistance 10 (2 EP)

8 - skilled (Diplomacy) (1 EP), immunity to poison (roughly 2 EP)

12 - DR 5/good (3 EP), see in darkness (roughly 3 EP)

16 - fire immunity (2 EP), telepathy (roughly 4 EP)

20 - regeneration 5 (roughly 5 EP)

Approximate total of free evolutions by level 20: 23. Roughly 38 EP total.

The devil suffers from much less freedom of choice than its other fiendish brethren. Apparently a more social eidolon, even with the skilled evolutions it takes a certain investment in CHA to make them excel in this role. Their capstone makes them very hard to kill, but you have to suffer through a pretty starved progression for most of your career. Unlike the biped-only celestials, the devil is free to take most natural attack evolutions, which is a nice silver lining.

Div
NE, biped only
1 - fire resistance (1 EP), +4 saves vs. poison (roughly 1 EP)

4 - acid and electricity resistance 10 (2 EP)

8 - 1 bonus EP, poison immunity (2 EP)

12 - DR 5/good (3 EP), see in darkness (roughly 3 EP)

16 - fire immunity (2 EP), telepathy (roughly 4 EP)

20 - Greater Teleport at-will (roughly 5 EP)

Approximate total of free evolutions by level 20: 22. Roughly 37 EP total.

The Div is basically the same as the Devil, but loses the social evolutions and gains a free EP to spend as you will. It also has a more useful utility capstone, very similar to an evil Archon. I’d pick this over the Devil, but it’s still more limited in scope than the Demon and Daemon.

Elemental
N, all forms
1 - immunity to paralysis and sleep (roughly 4 EP), one elemental immunity (2 EP)

4 - 1 bonus EP

8 - (Su) flight (4 EP), +20 ft. speed (2 EP), swim speed +20 ft. (2 EP), or burrow (3 EP)

12 - immunity to bleed, poison, stun, can no longer be flanked (roughly 8 EP)

16 - immunity to crits and precision damage (roughly 2 EP)

20 - whirlwind (roughly 2 EP), earth mastery and DR 5/- (roughly 4 EP), energy attacks and burn (roughly 3 EP), or vortex (roughly 2 EP)

Approximate total of free evolutions by level 20: 21-24. Roughly 36-39 EP total.

The elementals have a lot going for them, actually. A steadily growing list of immunities over the course of your career, a bonus EP to spend as you will, and freedom of base form choice makes for plenty of potential builds. Earth and Air are the strongest, with water potentially being the weakest, although it would serve fine in an aquatic-themed game. The more lax alignment restrictions mean the elementals are probably a better bet for a build-your-own-monster impulse over the demon or daemon.

Inevitable
LN, biped only
1 - counts as a construct for things (0 EP?), +4 saves vs. death effects, disease, necromancy, paralysis, poison, sleep, and stun (roughly 7 EP)

4 - +4 saves vs. mind-affecting effects (roughly 1 EP), immunity to nonlethal damage, fatigue, and exhaustion (roughly 4 EP)

8 - immunity to death effects, disease, and poison (roughly 6 EP)

12 - DR 5/chaotic (3 EP), immunity to sleep (roughly 2 EP), true speech (roughly 4 EP)

16 - immunity to ability damage, ability drain, energy drain, and necromancy (roughly 8 EP)

20 - immunity to paralysis, stun, any effect that requires a Fort. save unless it works on objects (roughly 6 EP)

Approximate total of free evolutions by level 20: 28. Roughly 43 EP total.

The inevitable is similar to the elementals in that it mostly brings a growing list of immunities to the table. By level 20, it’s practically a true construct. The value of its perks is difficult to truly gauge, since some of its later level immunities overlap a great deal, so the value is likely inflated. Still, it’s a useful set of immunities, particularly if you fight lots of undead. Sadly, the Inevitable has to spend resources on weapon proficiencies, since it is locked out of most natural attack evolutions.

Protean
CN, serpentine only
1 - acid resistance (1 EP), ‘floating’ grab evolution (2 EP)

4 - electricity and sonic resistance 10 (roughly 2 EP)

8 - constrict evolution (2 EP)

12 - DR 5/lawful (3 EP), blindsense evolution (3 EP), (Su) flight (4 EP)

16 - acid immunity (2 EP), amorphous anatomy (roughly 2 EP)

20 - constant Freedom of Movement and protean shape change (roughly 8 EP)

Approximate total of free evolutions by level 20: 28. Roughly 43 EP total.

The Protean is another odd duck eidolon. They seem to be designed for grappling, but the serpentine form starts with the lowest STR. With steady investment in STR and size, a Protean can eventually become a solid grappler, but early in their career they’re likely to struggle. Despite the base form restriction, Proteans have access to most forms of natural attack evolutions, so they are best taking advantage of this and maxing out their attack potential. Their capstone is quite potent, combining defense, utility, and even some healing into the mix.

Psychopomp
N, all forms
1 - immunity to death effects, disease, and poison (roughly 6 EP)

4 - cold and electricity resistance 10 (roughly 2 EP)

8 - 1 bonus EP, spirit touch (roughly 1 EP)

12 - DR 5/adamantine (3 EP), spirit sense (roughly 4 EP)

16 - ability increase evolution (2 EP), at-will invisibility SLA (roughly 5 EP)

20 - DR 10/adamantine (5 EP), immunity to cold and electricity (4 EP)

Approximate total of free evolutions by level 20: 28. Roughly 43 EP total.

Psychopomps are surprisingly boss. They have a great balance of defense, flexibility, and utility going for them. Spirit sense at level 12 might be the best boon, making them fantastic scouts and guardians; the invisibility power at 16 further sweetens the deal. The bonus EP and freedom of base form allows you to make the spooky death-monster of your choice with few restrictions. This is a very strong choice, likely edging out the demon, daemon, and elemental in the build-a-beast category.

TL/DR?

By my estimation, the strongest eidolon subtypes are the Psychopomp, Agathion, and Azata. Psychopomp is perhaps the strongest all-purpose eidolon, likely with a natural attack focused pounce build. The Agathion is a close second place, with the lay on hands healing ability a fantastic addition to its survivability and utility. The Azata is the best for a weapon-based build, bypassing evolution or feat requirements and just flat-out giving you martial weapon proficiency from the get-go.

The mid-tier for general usefulness and power are the daemon, demon, div, elemental, and protean eidolons. These are all relatively flexible and serviceable in their chosen role.

The bottom tier consists of the angel, devil, archon, and inevitable, largely due to extreme evolution restrictions or abilities that don’t mesh particularly well. The angel is perhaps the least powerful; the rest require feat or evolution investment to grab decent weapon proficiencies or combat options, but are otherwise relatively serviceable.

Evolution Changes

The list of evolutions has changed somewhat with the unchained rules. There are in general fewer choices, and there are now restrictions on certain natural attacks. For instance, angels cannot have a bite attack, and you can never have a psychopomp serve as a mount. Most of these restrictions are pretty arbitrary, and a sane GM could probably be persuaded to ignore many of them.

No restrictions:
daemon, demon, protean

Few restrictions:
agathion, devil, div, elemental, psychopomp

Highly restricted:
angel, archon, azata, inevitable

Basically, the chaotic outsiders are completely malleable (with the exception of the azatas); no evolution is denied them, and they are the best platform for a natural attack focused build. On the opposite end of the spectrum are the angel, archon, inevitable, and azata subtypes, which are locked out of most natural attack evolutions and pretty much dependent on weaponry-focused builds. Everything else is somewhere in-between.

The SLA evolutions are all gone; an eidolon’s magical abilities are much more limited and dependent on subtype, which is what gives the agathions and psychopomps such strength. A skill-dolon is still certainly feasible, but for the most part your eidolon is relegated to a combat role of some variety, almost entirely melee focused except for archery builds (most easily accomplished by serpentine azatas).

Finally, the more limited pool of evolution points means that certain evolutions like huge size are incredibly costly, and likely prevent utilizing the maximum number of natural attacks.

For example, let’s take a bipedal demon at level 20 with 16 EP. If you wanted a huge demon, you only have 6 EP left to work with. With 2 claws for free, you would need 5 more attacks to reach the maximum of 7. Extra limbs, be they arms, legs, or wings, are costly, and require an extra EP to ‘arm’ with claws, pincers, buffets, etc.

Huge (10 EP) + 2 claws (free) + wings (2 EP) + wing buffet (1 EP) + 3 tentacles (3 EP) — that brings you to 7 attacks with 1 EP free, but that doesn’t leave you with much room for fun stuff like reach, swallow whole, improved natural armor, etc.

With this in mind, Huge size might be best reserved for grapplers or certain melee weapon builds. Pounce-focused eidolons might be better off staying large or smaller and getting a higher number of natural weapons.

Unchained Summoner Spell List

The unchained summoner spell list is largely the same as the original summoner spell list, but most of the spells have gone up a level or two, preventing ‘early access’ and bringing their progression closer to that of a magus or inquisitor. The unchained summoner gains access to various fog and mist spells, which is fitting considering their conjuration focus.

The following list highlights the changes from the original spell list. These changes are listed under the following categories:

Lost - These spells have been axed from the new spell list. Most of these are niche spells from minor splats, and many of the most powerful spells from the original 6th level list.

Pushed - These spells have been moved to a higher level, delaying access to them. Nearly entire levels of spells get pushed, such as the 4th and 5th level lists, becoming the new 5th and 6th level lists respectively.

Gained - The unchained summoner learns a small handful of new spells. Most of these are fog and mist related spells.

Spoiler

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0 - level: Completely unchanged.

1st level:
Lost: Detect Metal, Flotsam Vessel, Infernal Healing, Lighten Object, Snowball

Gained: Obscuring Mist

Overall a net gain; the lost spells are largely fiddly flavor spells from various minor splats, and most GMs probably wouldn’t care too much if you really wanted to still learn one. Obscuring Mist is a great spell; I’m surprised it wasn’t on the original summoner list to begin with.

2nd level:
Pushed: Ablative Barrier, Haste, Slow, Wind Wall

Lost: Alter Summoned Monster, Blade Tutor’s Spirit, Final Sacrifice, Force Anchor, Ghost Wolf, Gird Ally

Gained: Fog Cloud

The great ‘spell migration’ begins here, subtly at first. Haste as a level 2 spell was perhaps the most egregious example of the imbalance in the original Summoner spell list, so it and its similarly powerful kin are pushed to level 3. This will be a trend throughout the revised list, as you will shortly see.

3rd level:
Pushed: Agonize, Black Tentacles, Charm Monster, Creeping Ice, Dimension Door, Dimensional Anchor, Mass Enlarge Person, Fire Shield, Greater Invisibility, Obsidian Flow, Mass Reduce Person, Stoneskin, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice

Lost: Air Breathing, Master’s Escape, Pellet Blast, Phantom Chariot, Summon Totem Creature, Sundered Serpent Coil, Swarm of Fangs

Gained: Invisibility Sphere, Stinking Cloud

The migration continues, as a large portion of the original list is pushed to 4th level. The summoner’s spell list is more closely resembling the magus list at this point.

4th level:
Pushed: Baleful Polymorph, Mass Bear’s Endurance, Mass Bull’s Strength, Mass Cat’s Grace, Contact Other Plane, Dismissal, Mass Eagle’s Splendor, Mass Fox’s Cunning, Hold Monster, Hostile Juxtaposition, Insect Plague, Mage’s Faithful Hound, Magic Jar, Overland Flight, Mass Owl’s Wisdom, Lesser Planar Binding, Sending, Communal Stoneskin, Teleport, Wall of Stone

Lost: Calm Air, Caustic Blood, Damnation Stride, Greater Infernal Healing, Instant Restoration, Nixie’s Lure, Skeleton Crew, Summon Acuser, Summon Lesser Psychopomp, Summon Stampede

Gained: Locate Creature, Solid Fog

A big chunk of spells are pushed to 5th or 6th level here, following the previous pattern. Nothing is lost aside from minor splat spells again.

5th level:
Pushed: Banishment, Lesser Create Demiplane, Creeping Doom, Ethereal Jaunt, Greater Heroism, Ice Crystal Teleport, Mass Invisibility, Planar Binding, Plane Shift, Repulsion, Sequester, Spell Turning, Summon Monster VII, Tar Pool, Greater Teleport, True Seeing, Wall of Iron

Lost: Eaglesoul, Energy Siege Shot, Geniekind, Simulacrum, Summon Infernal Host, Summon Vanth, Unseen Crew

Gained: Cloudkill, Summon Monster VI

The pattern holds; a large number of spells are up jumped to 6th level.

6th level:

Lost: Antipathy, Binding, Mass Charm Monster, Create Demiplane, Dimensional Lock, Discern Location, Dominate Monster, Greater Energy Siege Shot, Greater Hostile Juxtaposition, Incendiary Cloud, Magnetic Field, Maze, Greater Planar Binding, Planar Refuge, Protection from Spells, Summon Laborers, Summon Monster VIII, Sympathy, Teleportation Circle, Walk through Space

Gained: Acid Fog

As expected, the 6th level spell list is heavily neutered from its original state, largely for the better. Summoners were tossing around multiple 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells in these slots beforehand. While it’s sad to see Greater Planar Binding go, they still get access to Gate with their SLA.

Thoughts on the unchained summoner spell list:

If there is one thing to take away from the unchained summoner, the revised spell list might be the best step toward bringing the summoner to a comparable power level with the other 2/3 casters.

Most of the ‘lost spells’ are from various splats; most of them are not terribly powerful, mostly consisting of flavor or odd utility; a reasonable GM would probably allow an unchained summoner to learn them or research them.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I've been sitting on this for a long time, and I never posted it for some reason. Consider it supplemental to proper Summoner guides.

[Psyren]

Great work with the spoiler at the end. Even if I wanted to keep the original eidolon I'd definitely be using the US spell list, and it's nice to have a quick source for the changes.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Great work with the spoiler at the end. Even if I wanted to keep the original eidolon I'd definitely be using the US spell list, and it's nice to have a quick source for the changes.

I believe that was my primary motivation for doing this as well. :P

[Florian]

It´s interesting to compare the (Un)Summoner to the other two available "Pet"-type classes.
I think it´s fair to say that a Melee-Hunter pulls ahead in pure combat performance, the Spiritualist is the more versatile caster und the (Un)Summoner brings the best all-round utility to the table.

[Spore]

Great Miniguide. You might specify where the pushed levels went to because not everyone has memorized the spell levels of summoner spells. You can maybe add a summary of arguments to convince your DM towards unchained Summoners. Because I know my group heavily dislikes the vanilla summoner because the eidolon can be a cheese-fest.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Great Miniguide. You might specify where the pushed levels went to because not everyone has memorized the spell levels of summoner spells. You can maybe add a summary of arguments to convince your DM towards unchained Summoners. Because I know my group heavily dislikes the vanilla summoner because the eidolon can be a cheese-fest.

The unchained summoner spell list is on the SRD; my analysis is mostly meant to show the changes from the original list as a quick power comparison. 90% of the time, the 'pushed' spells go up 1 spell level.

If there was anything to point a reluctant GM to, it would be the revised spell list. I'd say 33% of the original summoner's raw power was its 'stealth 1-9th level spell list' in a 1-6 caster chassis. The other 66% is the eidolon and the summon monster SLA...

But that's just the thing. Unchained summoner doesn't really 'solve' the 'problem' of the eidolon and the summon monster SLA. Access to (improved) Summon Monster IX when prepared 1-9 full casters get access to it still leaves the unchained summoner as a 'stealth' 1-9 caster.

Indeed, by high levels, you're actually better off spamming fiendish T-Rexes than bothering with your eidolon (assuming you have Augment Summoning and Superior Summoning). That hasn't changed at all. But the unchained summoner can't also be tossing around dominate monster on top of that. Hooray progress?

[Florian]

Indeed, by high levels, you're actually better off spamming fiendish T-Rexes than bothering with your eidolon (assuming you have Augment Summoning and Superior Summoning). That hasn't changed at all. But the unchained summoner can't also be tossing around dominate monster on top of that. Hooray progress?

A non-argument. Any class with Summon Monster can do that and use the usual feats to enhance that. That is not why the Summoner had the bad rep in the first place. Heck, they look like bloody amateurs compared to a decent Diabolist.

With three pet-style classes, we should generally be beyond the whole "superior economy of actions" thing right now and any decent gm that doesn´t suffer from any prejudices should acknowledge that.

It´s rather that most people remember the Syntheticist and the whole exploits that could be done with it, beginning with more than favorable PB allocation.

[CockroachTeaParty]

A non-argument. Any class with Summon Monster can do that and use the usual feats to enhance that. That is not why the Summoner had the bad rep in the first place. Heck, they look like bloody amateurs compared to a decent Diabolist.

With three pet-style classes, we should generally be beyond the whole "superior economy of actions" thing right now and any decent gm that doesn´t suffer from any prejudices should acknowledge that.

It´s rather that most people remember the Syntheticist and the whole exploits that could be done with it, beginning with more than favorable PB allocation.

Personally, the 'threat' of the Synthecist is somewhat overblown. Remember that the summoner can use its summon SLA as a standard action rather than a 1 full round casting time, and its summons last 10 times as long. Most other full casters have to jump through hoops for that kind of convenience; nobody summons better than the summoner.

I'm arguing that the summoner's SLA is still a major factor of its power, something that the unchained version doesn't change in the slightest.

[Florian]

Personally, the 'threat' of the Synthecist is somewhat overblown.

You know that, I know that, people who keep up with system mastery know that. But that doesn´t affect prejudice. The damage has already been doe.

Remember that the summoner can use its summon SLA as a standard action rather than a 1 full round casting time, and its summons last 10 times as long. Most other full casters have to jump through hoops for that kind of convenience; nobody summons better than the summoner.

I'm arguing that the summoner's SLA is still a major factor of its power, something that the unchained version doesn't change in the slightest.

That´s the point I´m actually not all too convinced of.
First, it´s a SLA, therefore interaction with feats is a rather shaky thing. Superior Summons? Summon (Alignment) Monster? Not a given. While I agree with you on the sheer staying time of those SLAs, dedicated casters have access to better options (See Backfire Adept)and right now, some fringe casters (Nex-Medium and Occultist) have access to better summon-based tricks.