Armor as DR + Defense Bonus

[Amphimir Míriel]

Has anyone used these variants (alone or together)?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/ad...fenseBonus.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/ad...eReduction.htm

Any comments?

[Fax Celestis]

Using the Defense Bonus as DR and letting players keep armor for armor bonuses is a decent way to compensate for a dangerous/gritty game.

[Matthew]

Heh. I asked almost this exact same question a few months back, nobody seemed to have much to say about it, negative or positive. Personally, I think it's a really great variant, but there are a few issues.

The Defence Bonus Variant is quite good, but high Dexterity Full BAB Characters get the most milage out of it, as at Level 20 they get +12 AC and an Unlimited Dexterity Bonus, which is the equivalent of +3 Full Plate with no Dexterity Limit or Speed Reduction, whilst naked... I mean, okay, it's D&D and Level 20 is well beyond the norm and Armour Enchantments can make a difference, but still... that's pretty whacked.

Damage Reduction in combination makes things better, as you can use your Defence Bonus or Armour Bonus and still get DR. Sadly, it makes Magic Armour almost worthless, as the Armour Bonus is reduced significantly and Magic Armour contributes nothing to DR. Even so, DR 4/- is fairly worthless against High Level Attacks. On the other end of the scale, a Character in Full Plate is immune to Dagger Attacks, even during a Grapple, which is kind of crazy.

Overall, these are good variants, but they need tweaking to work right.

[Edit] Interesting variant, Fax. Not sure I'm on board, but interesting nonetheless.

[TheOOB]

Meh, the armor as DR varient isn't all that great because the amount of DR it gives is largely irrelevent after the first few levels. By the time your 5th level attacks can easily start doing 20+ damage a hit, and it becomes more important to not get hit then to make the attack 1/5(or less) weaker.

The defense bonus is an interesting option, but the problum is that a) no one would use armor, and b) the system benefits classes that don't wear much armor, namely mages, more then classes that normally do. A fighter can allready get a +13 armor bonus in a normal game without too much trouble, but its difficult for a mage to get a +8, or a rogue to get a +9.

A varient rule I find quite interesting is the HP system used in true20, which is similar. In that system your base AC is 10 + Dex + BAB. Instead of hp the system uses a toughness save system (not unlike one of the UA varients), and armor gives you a bonus to your toughness save.

[Malachite]

I think the idea's a good one, but it needs a lot of work for the reasons said earlier. I think it's right that DR should be irrelevant to higher strength attacks - seriously, can you see even full plate standing up to a dragon's jaws? - and that high dex/full BAB should get a high benefit. If someone can't hit you, what does it matter how hard they're hitting?
It always annoyed me that (barring magic armour) someone would find it just as easy to hit a lvl 20 fighter as a similarly armoured lvl 1 fighter.

[Diggorian]

We do a variant of this variant:

Class Defense bonus = half your BAB round down and you keep it with armor. In my own campaign I made it a dodge bonus. Defense bonus comes from D20 Star Wars it seems, where armor has DR only under certain attacks and no AC benefit. Could work in Pirates of Carribean type game too, no armor worn.

The DR of armor we express as a dice amount. So DR4/- becomes DR 1d8/- ; this way a dagger can get through full platemail sometimes.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I don't like how the class defence bonus doesn't stack with armour. DnD suffers from defence being too item based so its annoying to make a system that doesn't actually effect that.

[Fascisticide]

An idea that might fit.
Inspired by the Total War video games. In this game, defense is divided in 3 : armor, shield and agility. Against projectiles, only armor and shield count (and I'm not sure, but I think shield counts double against projectiles).

So if I were to change how armor works in d&d, I would include this rule, that you don't add dex bonus to AC against projectiles, but you double shield bonus.

[Matthew]

Well, that's why Active defence is by far my favoured system. Having the opportunity to Parry, Dodge or Block incoming Attacks makes combat far more interesting, in my opinion. Body Armour should certainly provide some DR/- in addition to AC.

[Amphimir Míriel]

The Defence Bonus Variant is quite good, but high Dexterity Full BAB Characters get the most milage out of it, as at Level 20 they get +12 AC and an Unlimited Dexterity Bonus, which is the equivalent of +3 Full Plate with no Dexterity Limit or Speed Reduction, whilst naked... I mean, okay, it's D&D and Level 20 is well beyond the norm and Armour Enchantments can make a difference, but still... that's pretty whacked.

Yeah, pretty whacked... still, by Level 20 a warrior has a lot more things to worry about than straight melee attacks.

Damage Reduction in combination makes things better, as you can use your Defence Bonus or Armour Bonus and still get DR. Sadly, it makes Magic Armour almost worthless, as the Armour Bonus is reduced significantly and Magic Armour contributes nothing to DR. Even so, DR 4/- is fairly worthless against High Level Attacks. On the other end of the scale, a Character in Full Plate is immune to Dagger Attacks, even during a Grapple, which is kind of crazy.

Still, getting some additional enchantments into armor besides pure enhancement still makes it worth it.

And a Full Plate armor should make you impervious to a regular dagger attack... Of course, this doesnt count sneak attacks or other precision or strenght-bonus based damage... Where the rogue manages a deadly stab into the armored fighter's poorly protected armpit; or in the back of the neck, slipping the dagger between helm and gorget. Or where a really strong barbarian just punches through the armor, pricking the fighter after piercing layers of plate, leather and padding.

Sounds quite accurate to me... For even more realism, a plate clad warrior should be a bit more vulnerable to blunt weapons, and a warrior in chainmail to piercing... But that's a whole 'nother level of complexity

[Matthew]

Still, getting some additional enchantments into armor besides pure enhancement still makes it worth it.

Yeah, it might do.

And a Full Plate armor should make you impervious to a regular dagger attack... Of course, this doesnt count sneak attacks or other precision or strenght-bonus based damage... Where the rogue manages a deadly stab into the armored fighter's poorly protected armpit; or in the back of the neck, slipping the dagger between helm and gorget. Or where a really strong barbarian just punches through the armor, pricking the fighter after piercing layers of plate, leather and padding.

Sounds quite accurate to me... For even more realism, a plate clad warrior should be a bit more vulnerable to blunt weapons, and a warrior in chainmail to piercing... But that's a whole 'nother level of complexity

That's pretty much my point, though. A guy in Full Plate is no more invulnerable to a Dagger than he is to a Sword. A favoured tactic was to Grapple a foe in order to drive a blade through Mail covered joints or other vulnerable areas. Picks, Hammers, Axes and Maces don't really have that much more chance of overcoming Plate, they do have a somewhat better chance, but most weapons simply won't penetrate Plate without a lot of force behind them. There is more 'impact' damage with these weapons, but even so, whacking away at Plate Armour is nowhere near as effective as going for a vulnerable area.
A guy in Plate is arguably more vulnerable to thrusting weapons than impact weapons. Mail, on the other hand, is more vulnerable to thrusts than chops and to chops than cuts, but that's not reflected in Damage Reduction.

Whether a Dagger should be lethal or not always comes up in this sort of discussion. I think the iconography of the period is interesting, as the number of Daggers depicted on Knightly Tombs seems to proportionally increase with the depiction of Plate Armour.

Of course, whatever conclusions you draw, it's impossible to escape the fact that D&D is an abstract combat system, so maybe none of this really matters anyway.

[Merlin the Tuna]

If I had to levy a complaint with the Defense Bonus system, it's that it's all based off of armor proficiency. It mimics the existing system a bit, but in the same ways that the existing system can already be stupid. Example -- Clerics having the best defense, more so than Barbarians or Rogues. It's most pointed with the Druid getting a better progression than his martial counterpart, the Ranger. Or the Scout, for that matter.

[Amphimir Míriel]

Of course, whatever conclusions you draw, it's impossible to escape the fact that D&D is an abstract combat system, so maybe none of this really matters anyway.

Very True

If I had to levy a complaint with the Defense Bonus system, it's that it's all based off of armor proficiency. It mimics the existing system a bit, but in the same ways that the existing system can already be stupid. Example -- Clerics having the best defense, more so than Barbarians or Rogues. It's most pointed with the Druid getting a better progression than his martial counterpart, the Ranger. Or the Scout, for that matter.

Oh, yeah, if I ever get to implement that variant, Im going to make the cleric and the monk switch places... The ranger and the druid too.

On the other hand, I might leave the monk in the slot it is (he still should be able to compensate through his class bonuses to AC), but raise him to Full BAB status...

But that's a whole 'nother thread altogether...

[Diggorian]

That quirk of defense bonus is exactly why we used half BAB. Making it a dodge bonus sorta mimics a parry mechanic.

[Swordguy]

I've had to homebrew this same idea (note: NOT RAW at all).

Please note: this is the short version. The real one is more extensively "rules-lawyer proof", and as such is several pages long...


Armor provides its normal AC bonus.
Light Armor gives DR 1
Medium Armor gives DR 2
Heavy Armor gives DR 3

Fighters ONLY gain a Proficiency Bonus to DR equal to +1 DR at 1st level, and and additional +1 DR at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20.

Masterwork Armor adds +1 DR

+1 or 2 enhancement bonus=+1 DR
+3 or 4 enhancement bonus=+2 DR
+5 enhancement bonus=+3 DR

Mithril and all other special materials add +1 DR
Adamantine adds an additional +1 DR (along with the "special material bonus")
Special Qualities directly relating to negating damage (Fortification, etc.) add +1 DR per ability.

Magic weapons can partially ignore this. A magic weapon ignores DR bonuses from armor enhancement LESS THAN its own enhancement bonus. (Example: a +3 sword strikes a fighter in +2 full plate. The full plate has DR equal to 5 (+3 heavy armor, +1 Masterwork, +1 for the +2 enhancement bonus). The armor will apply 4 points of DR to the attack (as the sword has a higher enhancement bonus than the armor, the DR bonus from enhancement is ignored - but not the rest of the DR bonuses!)

Critical Hits IGNORE all DR. Force damage ignores DR (Magic Missile, etc.). Magical attacks relying on an other form of physical HP damage have DR applied to them as normal. GM discretion is required (Fireball should have DR applied, while damage from a successful save against [/i]Finger of Death[/i] should not).

Shields do nothing to add DR. Their extra AC either forces the attack to hit the shield and do nothing, or the attack misses the shield and hits the armor, which applies DR normally.

NOTE: This homebrew does NOT use the normal (example: DR 5/+2 ) DR system. It's simply too easy to render irrelevant.

[FireSpark]

I see the 'Armor as DR + Defense Bonus' vs. core rules debate as pretty even sided. Each has their appropriate benefits and flaws, whilst ensuring that previously conceived class roles aren't fiddled with too much. Fighters are still hard to hit, and wizards are still vulnerable to physical attacks. What it really does is actually quite subtle. It forces you to re-think your approach to the class. For a trade off of a few points of AC, you're getting free, untyped DR. And despite what some may say, any DR is better than no DR, no matter your level.

It really just boils down to where you want to throw your luck. Which rolls are you trying to oppose. With the standard rules, your trying to oppose the attack roll (ie: with a really high AC), but under the DR variant you're trying to oppose both the attack roll and the damage roll. All in all, it all seems to balance out to me. It just seems like it would be more work for the DM, since they have to make the adjustments for any bad guys wearing armor, or any monsters with natural armor of +5 or better (since the DR rule also takes into account natural armor, just with a different ratio).


Anywho, on a side-but-related-note, I recommend to anyone who likes using this variant to use the lethal-to-nonlethal variant, also from Unearthed Arcana (the section immediately after the class bonus/DR stuff actually). It doesn't have to be used with the DR/class bonus stuff, but can be. Essentially, it changes an amount of lethal damage equal to your armor bonus into nonlethal damage. What does that mean? well, you still take the same amount of damage, so if the fighter has 30hp and takes 34 damage, he's still unconcious, just not dying. A fight can still be deadly if no one can get to unconcious allies before a bad guy gets of a coup de grace, but it makes recovering from fights faster. I find that it also speeds things up between fights. Nonlethal damage heals at 1 point per hour. Also, healing spells remove 1 point of nonlethal damage for every point of lethal damage healed. This makes getting the fighter back on his feet easier and faster as well, while at the same time using fewer spells or restorative items. Obviously I like this variant, as evidenced by the massive prattling I've just done.

[Matthew]

I don't know. The lethal to Non Lethal thing just strikes me as a faster Healing variant, but with more bookeeping.

[Fizban]

In that case, change healing spells so that they only heal lethal damage, or heal one type first, then the other, so that you've only removed as many points as normal. The main thing is that it allows for armor softening the blows without the problem of DR becoming useless. The damage is still hindering, but the armor made it less lethal.

[Matthew]

On the face of it, it seems like a good idea to me, but it seems much easier to just let Characters recover X(Character Level) Hit Points per day. Just my opinion, though.