The best Race for a monk

[TGWG]

I have found the perfect race for the monk class, or so I think. It all depends on how the DM would rule it. The race I have found is the Half-giants. Their "powerful build" racial abilities allow them to function as if one size catagory larger in many cercumstances. I would rule that it also applies to determining unarmed attack damage, but I'm not the DM (for reasons unrelated to this). I would also argue that it would apply to the Monk's unarmed damage progression, if the Half-giant ever took monk levels.

the "tables" below will help you see how the powerful build racial abbility (if applied) will affect the monk's attacks

if powerful build is applied

1d8 at lev1-3
2d6 at lev4-7
2d8 at lev8-11
3d6 at lev12-15
3d8 at lev16-19
4d8 at lev20

powerful build with improved natural attack

1d8 at lev1-3
2d6 at lev4-5
3d6 at lev6-7
3d8 at lev8-11
4d6 at lev12-15
4d8 at lev16-19
6d8 at lev20

powerful build, natural attack, enlarge body

2d6 at lev1-3
3d6 at lev4-5
4d6 at lev6-7
4d8 at lev8-11
6d6 at lev12-15
6d8 at lev16-19
8d8 at lev20

8d8. 8d8!!! tell me that's not impressive!!! No non-epic enchanted weapon can do that much (post if there is one)!? Provided this damage output depends on a permanant enlarge body spell, the improved natural attack feat, and the half-giant's powerful build racial abillity which could or could not work with the monk's unarmed attack damage progression, but still, 8d8 is alot of damage. Now if only I could get his size catagory one larger for that 12d8. any sugestions?

Now impressive base damage aside. 8d8 This monk will still have alot of weaknesses. 8d8 the 8d hit dice still gives the monk a low hp. 8d8 without armor his AC will be realy low 8d8 and that 15 BAB realy digs into how many times he can hit the enemy. 8d8

heh...heh...*drool*... 8d8

*snaps out of it* Sorry. Whenever I think about that sweet 8d8 damage my mind begins to wonder.

so what do you think? Should the half-giant's powerful build apply to unarmed attack damage also? what about the monk's unarmed attack damage?

[Starsinger]

On the one hand, I can see it being acceptable for powerful built to affect unarmed damage, on the other hand, it doesn't actually make the Half-Giant's hands Large... So, I can see it not affecting unarmed damage, too. Personally, I don't see why not. It's not like Monk is a strong class or anything.

[Neon Knight]

Add in Superior Unarmed Strike from Tome of Battle. It allows you to be counted as a monk four levels higher for unarmed damage progression.

[Piccamo]

8d8 is nice, but still only averages to 36 damage per swing. You need to pump your strength and wisdom. Also look for a source of pounce.

If you're set on this sort of build you could dip 1 level of barbarian and take the pounce variant. Also taking Superior Unarmed Strike would help you alot.

[brian c]

Add in Superior Unarmed Strike from Tome of Battle. It allows you to be counted as a monk four levels higher for unarmed damage progression.

The only thing about that is that since Monk unarmed damage doesn't increase past level 20, that feat is only decent if don't plan on taking all levels of monk (it would work best with 16). Of course, I think a lot of people houserule monk unarmed damaged increasing after level 20, but by RAW a level 20 monk gets no benefit at all from Superior Unarmed Strike.

[Neon Knight]

The only thing about that is that since Monk unarmed damage doesn't increase past level 20, that feat is only decent if don't plan on taking all levels of monk (it would work best with 16). Of course, I think a lot of people houserule monk unarmed damaged increasing after level 20, but by RAW a level 20 monk gets no benefit at all from Superior Unarmed Strike.

True. However, if you start below level 16, it is handy.

Superior Unarmed Strike is also limited for monks because of the +3 BAB requirment. Means 5 is the first level pure monks can take it. Of course, if you are going pure monk, you have bigger problems than that.

[Ramza00]

Not to put rain on your parade, but a Human monk with a wand or wizard of Greater Mighty Wallop will be doing 12d8 damage (average 54, caster level of 16, 12 with improved natural attack.)

[Generic PC]

But this isnt about A Human with a wand or a wizard with greater mighty wallop will be doing 12d8 damage. this is about the fact that TGWG has found that a monk can do more than 2d10 damage. However, on topic, would this work any differant with a Goliath? Half Ogre? also, Off Topic a little, is there any spell like Enlarge person, but that makes you two sizes bigger?

[blue chicken]

Why yes, yes there is. Your problem is most easily solved. Make that ol' Monk (who, as a half-giant, just happens to be naturally psionic as well) into a Psionic Fist. Sure, it's a slow progression, especially without any levels of Psychic Warrior...but then again, Psionic Fist stacks with monk levels to determine unarmed damage and the like.

Heh heh.

Behold: Expansion!

There's your two size categories. And pair that with some other powers...say, Force Screen...Painful Strike...Grip of Iron...maybe Dissolving Touch (that'd pend another house rule, of course, but it makes sense to me that if a strike with a sword can deal acid damage ala Dissolving Weapon, punching someone would do the regular AND acid damage as long as you hit their normal AC) and Animal Affinity for Str boosts...

I think the term you're looking for is "nasty beast."

But then again, a monk's a monk. Bleh for monks. Hurray for Psionics, however.

[kyz]

One big fat monkey wrench in this scheme for MASSIVE UNARMED DAMAGE KINDA.

Powerful build allows them to function as Large in many ways, such as using weapons. RAW, though, it does not increase their unarmed damage. Or so I was told in the RAW FAQ thread awhile back.

Back to the cheese wheel.

[TGWG]

Well it should. The way I understand Powerful build is that the half-giant's muscle density and bone strenght is much higher then that of any other race. This allows anyone with a powerful build to do feats of strenght that it no other race of the same size catagory can do, such as being more stable in a bullrush attempt, using weapons of larger size catagories without penelty, and even resist being swallowed whole, all due to a special racial ability. My reasoning is that if a half giant can do all of this becuase of a higher muscle density then it should also be able to do things like carry twice the load of a medium character of the same strength score, and punching harder. Effectively, acting in all ways like a character of one size catagory larger, except without the attack, and ac penalties.

I suppose scaling up the monk's unarmed strike could work equaly well with any race from the huge veriaty, but if the half giant's powerful build applies here then you can have a huge class unarmed strike, without the minus one to AC an attack (pretty cheap of me, eh?)

Now factoring in the psionic power expansion the monk's unarmed attack progression will be as follows

(This is with full expansion, enlarge body, powerful build, and improved natural attack)
4d6 at lev1-3
6d6 at lev4-5
8d6 at lev6-7
8d8 at lev8-11
12d6 at lev12-15
12d8 at lev16-19
16d8 at lev20

hm... 16d8... Can I get a "holy ****!"
Base damage doesn't get any higher! What's more, with superior unarmed strike and a monk's belt, this half-giant pack 16d8 at lev11!!!
Can I get a "holy ****!"
also I've looked at the damage of a greataxe, scaled up to collosal, and it only does 8d6 base damage. Even with enchantments - which don't scale with size (do they?) - their damage output will still pale in comparison.
Can I get a "holy ****!"
Now I know know that the monk's unarmed strike likes various kinds of ways to bypass damage reduction, but seriously which would you prefer, 1d10+1d6 or 16d8-10?
one last time people can I get a "holy ****!"

...

Of course, improving the monk's unarmed strike doesn't make up for the monk's weaknesses nor does it eliminate the weaknesses he's just made for himself. To do full damage the monk needs to take the psoinic fist PrC and have a spellcaster nearby who has prepared enlarge body that day, and not to mention the monk would also need sufficient room to grow or else risk the chance of being constrained, so claustrophobia will be an enevitable worry. Also, by scaling up his size to gargantuan he's lost 6 AC due to size and DEX penalties which will make his low hit dice (for a melee) even more telling.
With a size catagory of gargantuan you could theoreticaly wrestle a dragon (that'll be fun to see) but it still won't effect who the winner in such a fight would be.

...

what a way to put a damper on this build. By getting rid of one weakness (need for ways to get past DR) I've created several others. Back to the drawing bourd. Any way to help me com up with ideas?

and what's greater mighty wallop anyway?

[Jack Mann]

It's not enlarge body, it's enlarge person. And it doesn't work on goliaths or half-giants.

[Piccamo]

It's not enlarge body, it's enlarge person. And it doesn't work on goliaths or half-giants.

Additionally, Expansion does not stack with Enlarge Person.

You can say that the barb can't do as much damage, but you're not factoring other things (like PA) and if you're using splat books, so can the barb. 16d8 averages out to 72 damage. Every respectable meleer should be doing at least that by around level 12 - 14.

Rolling dice is fun, but its not everything. Static damage is more reliable and often scales better.

[prufock]

Well it should. The way I understand Powerful build is that the half-giant's muscle density and bone strenght is much higher then that of any other race. This allows anyone with a powerful build to do feats of strenght that it no other race of the same size catagory can do, such as being more stable in a bullrush attempt, using weapons of larger size catagories without penelty, and even resist being swallowed whole, all due to a special racial ability. My reasoning is that if a half giant can do all of this becuase of a higher muscle density then it should also be able to do things like carry twice the load of a medium character of the same strength score, and punching harder. Effectively, acting in all ways like a character of one size catagory larger, except without the attack, and ac penalties.

Maybe it should, conceptually, but it doesn't work that way. Powerful build applies to size modifiers and special size modifiers for opposed checks, when determining if another creatures special attacks (like swallow whole) should apply, and using oversized weapons. That's it. The only way your build works is through DM fiat, and DM fiat can do, well, anything.

It isn't necessarily that their muscle density is any higher. That would simply be a strength bonus (which Half-giants already have). The text cites their "physical stature," which could include things like having a wider body than most races, having longer limbs, having a wider base stance, being particularly tall, and so on. It's basically an "in-between" size category - they're bigger than medium, but smaller than large - so they get only some of the benefits of a larger size.

[kyz]

THe response to my question.

So, you could try to houserule it/slip it by a DM who doesn't know better, but otherwise it's pretty much not the norm

[greenknight]

Rolling dice is fun, but its not everything. Static damage is more reliable and often scales better.

Besides, if you really want to roll those dice, it's better to go with sneak attacks. A Human Rogue 15 / Invisible Blade 5 adds 11d6 Sneak Attack damage per attack, has a BAB of 16 (base 4 attacks per round) and can make 7 attacks per round (using Two Weapon Fighting). That can be further boosted by Haste (or a Speed weapon) and/or Opportunist. Equip the character with a pair of Daggers, one +1 with Shock, Flaming, Corrosive (Magic Item Compendium), Deadly Precision (Magic Item Compendium), Desiccating (Magic Item Compendium), Screaming (Magic Item Compendium). The second one is the same, replacing Flaming with Frost, and adding the Speed ability. The first weapon is effectively a +7 enhancement, the second a +10 (that's nearly 300,000gp in enhancements alone, which is a major investment even for a character of this level).

In the end, that would potentially give you 9 attacks per round, with each attack doing 1d4 (base weapon damage) + 11d6 (Sneak Attack) + 4d6 (Corrosive, Shock, Flaming or Frost, Deadly Precision) + 2d4 (Disiccating, Screaming). Assuming all attacks hit and all effects work, you'd be rolling 27d4 + 135d6. If you made the daggers out of starmetal (Complete Arcane), you could potentially add another 9d6 to the total if you're fighting an Extraplaner creature.

Mind you, against any creature immune to critical hits or unable to be flanked (and there's enough of them at just about any CR), most of your extra damage potential goes away. And if it also has protection from several energy types (common in extraplaner beings), then you could find yourself doing next to no damage each round, which is a major weakness of this build (and there are several other major weaknesses as well, potentially making this character very vulnerable).

[woc33]

Additionally, Expansion does not stack with Enlarge Person.

You can say that the barb can't do as much damage, but you're not factoring other things (like PA) and if you're using splat books, so can the barb. 16d8 averages out to 72 damage. Every respectable meleer should be doing at least that by around level 12 - 14.

Rolling dice is fun, but its not everything. Static damage is more reliable and often scales better.

16d8 averages out to 72 damage *per hit*, a level 20 monk has 5 attacks, at 15/15/15/10/5. if you throw in TWF in there that same monk could have 8 attacks at 13/13/13/8/3 and 13/8/3. i'd say it's a nice replacement for some other builds with many attacks per round.

[lord_khaine]

yeah but the problem here is that as somone allready mentioned, to of those sources does not improve monk damage.
powefull build doesnt help, and expansion and enlarge person does not stack.

besides that, expansion to huge requires 7 manifester lvs, so its not that easy to pull off.

[Piccamo]

16d8 averages out to 72 damage *per hit*, a level 20 monk has 5 attacks, at 15/15/15/10/5. if you throw in TWF in there that same monk could have 8 attacks at 13/13/13/8/3 and 13/8/3. i'd say it's a nice replacement for some other builds with many attacks per round.

Getting a full-attack is not all that easy to do. The easiest way now is a 1-level dip into barbarian to gain pounce. Then you are getting all of your attacks, unless you kill it before your full attack is up and there aren't other enemies close enough to attack. Its already a big problem for monks: Using their class abilities en tandem.

[Zincorium]

16d8 averages out to 72 damage *per hit*, a level 20 monk has 5 attacks, at 15/15/15/10/5. if you throw in TWF in there that same monk could have 8 attacks at 13/13/13/8/3 and 13/8/3. i'd say it's a nice replacement for some other builds with many attacks per round.

Yeah. The problem is hitting anything. Seriously. All those size increases do not do good things for your attack bonus, and having a strength on par with the average fighter at that level is purely wishful thinking. You simply do not have the resources to spend on it.

That, and with the LA, you're getting into epic territory. Balors come in packs after you now.

So, with an attack bonus of 15, -4 for TWF and being huge, you need a bonus on attacks of at least 14 from strength and items just to hit on anything less than a 20 with your primary attacks. That sucks, seriously. The absolute highest strength you can get in a standard campaign is a half orc monk pumping strength like they had a fire sale on magical steroids (then somehow getting that augmented expansion, which it's never explained how you got one) is a whopping 40, for a total attack bonus of 15. Add a greater magic weapon for +5, heck, add weapon focus for +1 and you can actually hit on a 13 with your primary attacks, an 18 with your next rendition, and your last set still can't hit on anything less than a natural 20. And that's as good as you get. Anything else is going to require buffs.

Now, when you consider that with all those resources spent on strength, plus the dexterity and size penalties of being huge, your AC is going to be terrible. Expansion is, on the whole, not the best stratagem for monks. It just looks pretty when you're rolling dice.

[The White Knight]

Semi-related question:

The Barbarian pounce feature that is often mentioned - this replaces Rage, I assume? Wouldn't it, then, be lost (as Rage is) when becoming lawful to qualify for the Monk class?

[Jack Mann]

No, it replaces fast movement.

[The White Knight]

Oh. I suppose that's more in the same vein, after all (although hardly equivalent in power/usefulness). Carry on.

[lord_khaine]

its kinda sad that monk can benefit from a 1 lv dip into barbarian..

[GoblinJTHM]

since monks can't lvl after taking any other class I guess they'd have to start as a barb then go all monk, no?

[Indon]

Not to put rain on your parade, but a Human monk with a wand or wizard of Greater Mighty Wallop will be doing 12d8 damage (average 54, caster level of 16, 12 with improved natural attack.)

So what does a half-giant (or whatever) do with that same buff?

[Fenix_of_Doom]

THe response to my question.

So, you could try to houserule it/slip it by a DM who doesn't know better, but otherwise it's pretty much not the norm

what would happen if you'd uses a gauntlet that is one size category higher?(please ignore proficiency issues)

[greenknight]

what would happen if you'd uses a gauntlet that is one size category higher?(please ignore proficiency issues)

Then you'd be doing Gauntlet damage - for a Huge Gauntlet, that's 1d6, or 1d8 for a Gargantuan one. Note there's a difference between a Gauntlet and a Monk's unarmed attack - the Gauntlet means you have to hit with the Gauntlet, the unarmed attack can hit with almost any part of the body (fist, elbows, knees, and feet are the ones mentioned).

[The White Knight]

Then you'd be doing Gauntlet damage - for a Huge Gauntlet, that's 1d6, or 1d8 for a Gargantuan one. Note there's a difference between a Gauntlet and a Monk's unarmed attack - the Gauntlet means you have to hit with the Gauntlet, the unarmed attack can hit with almost any part of the body (fist, elbows, knees, and feet are the ones mentioned).

Nope. Text trumps table. Read the description for the Gauntlet - all it does is make your unarmed damage lethal instead of nonlethal; it is otherwise identical to an unarmed strike. How this is intended to mesh with a monk's unarmed strike I cannot say, but you wouldn't be receiving any size-dependent damage gain.

[greenknight]

Nope. Text trumps table.

Yep, and here's the text for the Monk's unarmed attack:

A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet.

Gauntlet isn't mentioned there, so it doesn't qualify.