Parrying System

[Skjaldbakka]

I've been working a new system for combat resolution. Before I go into it in to much detail, I should probably note the other details I will be using.

1st- Low Magic Setting. There are no full casting classes in this setting, although I am using the paladin, ranger, and bard prestigous classes from UA, with some modifications. I'm not done doing that yet, so suffice to say that the maximum possible caster level at 20th level is 15, with the right race/feat combinations. This makes magic items rare and expensive, and generaly not for sale. Many magic items would require an epic-level character to make (such as +4 or greater items), or simply can't exist, do to the spells necessary no longer being available.

2nd- I'm using Reserve HP from UA.

3rd- I'm using armor as DR from UA.

Net result- very low AC.
Goal- I want to make large numbers of low-level enemies a threat to high level PCs, without making high level PCs fall over to high CR encounters.

So, here is the parrying system that I am working on:

1st- Dexterity and dodge bonuses are not applied to AC, they are instead incorporated into the parrying mechanic.

Whenever a character is potentially struck (an attack roll beats his AC), he has the opportunity to Parry or Dodge. A character's number of parries are tied to his BAB, so a level 6 fighter's base parry modifier will be +6/+1. This means he can parry once per round at a +6 base, and once at a base +1.

A parry attempt must be higher than the attacker's attack roll, and adds everything that would normally add to your attack roll, with the exception of strength. Parry attempts are keyed off dexterity instead. Any bonus or penalty that have to your attack roll applies to your attempts to parry, such as Power Attack. Charging bonuses do NOT apply to parry, but in fact penalizes your parry. Dodge bonuses apply to your parry attempts.

Special Rules for Parry-

- If you are flanked, you can only use a normal parry against one of the two flankers each round. If you have a shield or an off-hand weapon, you may parry with those against a flank.

-A shield grants an extra parry, at your full bonus, using strength instead of dexterity. A shield's bonus is both applied to your AC and to you attempt to parry. Bucklers use dexterity instead of str. A shield can parry against a flank.

-The combat expertise feat grants you one parry at your full bonus, using you intelligence modifier instead of your dexterity modifier. If you took a penalty to your attack rolls, you apply that penalty as a bonus to all of your parry attempts for the round.

-The dodge feat gives you a +1 dodge bonus to every parry attempt you make in the round at your full bonus, as well as giving a +1 dodge bonus to your Dodge attempts, and granting one extra Dodge attempt each round (dodging will be covered later).

-On a successful parry, both weapons involved inflict their base damage on each other.

Dodge-

A dodge is a reflex save opposed by the attack roll the hit you. If your reflex save exceeds the attack roll that hit you, you have dodged out of the way. You can attempt 1 dodge/rnd.


Miscellanous modifiers:

For those of you that are familiar, I am using Arcana Evolved's parry modifiers on certain weapons, but I'm not going to list them all here. Some weapons have a +1 bonus to parry, and some weapons (like the flail) have a -1 penalty. Some exotic weapons (main gauche) have a +2 bonus).

I'm still working on manuevers and stances, which will play into the parrying system, but its not done yet. What I do know is that they will cost skill points to learn. Here is one I have finished:

Overpower
prereq: 13+ Str, power attack
When wielding a two-handed weapon or charging, your opponents must beat you in an opposed strength check when they parry. If you succeed, you deal damage to your opponent equal to your strength modifier to damage, + the bonus to damage you gained from power attack.


So, thoughts?

[DraPrime]

I like most of it. One thing bugs me though. I don't think that the shield should be allowed as a parrying item. The protection a shield gives is factored into AC. Should an off hand weapon be used for parrying? yes!, a shield? NO. The dodging looks good to me. It might make combat last a bit longer, but that's not a problem for everyone. (and it's definitely not a problem for me)

[Skjaldbakka]

True, but I think that the benefit provided from a shield in most RPGs is significantly less than the actual benefit of using a shield, from my personal experience. The same way that being flanked sucks a lot more than a +2 to be hit (both from personal experience, albeit with boffer weapons).


Also keep in mind that a level 20 character in full plate with a shield still can't break 20. AC is more for when you are attacked by lower level people. The AC just doesn't matter much against a high level person's attack bonus, and the DR doesn't really help much against the damage of a high level attacker.

[DraPrime]

Also keep in mind that a level 20 character in full plate with a shield still can't break 20.

Not exactly. A level 20 character has a loooooooooooooooooooooooot of money. They can probably get enchanted armor and magic items that increases their AC. But if the whole shield parry thing is meant to be there so that higher level characters still can block attacks, then why not make it a feat with a prerequisite of a +12 BAB? Or simply make it available to higher level characters.

[Skjaldbakka]

Low Magic Setting. There are no full casting classes in this setting, although I am using the paladin, ranger, and bard prestigous classes from UA, with some modifications. I'm not done doing that yet, so suffice to say that the maximum possible caster level at 20th level is 15, with the right race/feat combinations. This makes magic items rare and expensive, and generaly not for sale. Many magic items would require an epic-level character to make (such as +4 or greater items), or simply can't exist, do to the spells necessary no longer being available.

Emphasis, and the rest of it, mine.

but for the sake of argument, lets say that magic items were for sale, or that a PC goes the magic-item creation route. At best, you can have . . . +5 armor and shield, no ring of protection (there is no shield of faith spell), +2 amulet of natural armor (requires barkskin- ranger only in this setting, and rangers can only get clvl 7).

Thats a 28, which is still nothing against a high level threat, and is a lot more magic items than is normal for the game.

[RyanM]

I dunno how realistic a system that is, but it works within the context of the whole 6 second round, taking turns thing.

Realistically, a parry is not a static, defensive action. Even with modern "double-time" fencing, a parry is immediately followed by a riposte. In older "single-time" fencing, the riposte is the parry. You counterattack in such a way that you simultaneously harm your opponent and block his attack. Or at the very least, you parry in such a way that you can immediately attack your opponent, and he is momentarily unable to either defend or attack. To simply block a blow, without placing yourself at an advantage, and/or your opponent at a disadvantage, is what was called a "badde parrye."

Good example of how the medieval Europeans did it would be the Zwerchhau, an old German 2-handed longsword technique, for use in Blossfetchen (unarmored) combat. Try it out if you LARP or are in the SCA or something. Start with the sword at your right shoulder. Step right and slightly forward with the right foot, and right and slightly back with the left foot, so that you move right and turn. While stepping, keeping the hilt high, swing the sword from your right so that the back edge will hit the opponent, without twisting your grip around. Keep the hilt at forehead level or higher, with the blade pointing down slightly to strike your opponent in the head, neck, or shoulder.

Another way to explain how to swing; hold the sword over your head, horizontally, pointing back, as if you were going to execute a downward chop. Have the "front" edge facing to your left, and the "back" edge pointing right. Swing the sword clockwise (if you were looking up at it), so that you hit with the back edge, contorting your arms crazily as necessary. You'll end up with your left bicep behind your head, the left forearm going over top of your head, with your right arm in front. Now do that again, but deliver the blow from your shoulder rather than above the head, and extend it out as far as you can instead of keeping the hilt above your head. And don't forget to step right while turning.

Hard to explain. It'll feel pretty awkward at first, but properly executed, the Zwerchhau protects you from any blow that comes from above, while simultaneously counterattacking. It will also defend+counterattack against an incoming Zwerchhau, if your opponent decides to try copying what you just did.

Anyways, you could probably make the "parry" skill work something like that, especially if you add simultaneous attacking. Which would also help make hoards of low-level enemies more deadly, since you can only concentrate on one at a time (without some kind of crazy feat).

Or, it could be that dodging an attack is more likely to work, but a successful parry allows you to make a free counterattack. Or something.

[Skjaldbakka]

Actually, I have studied German longsword fighting. However, I am not trying for realism here, I am just trying to get 'the feel' of parrying in there. I may include a counterattack skill or stance, but I am still working on the basics at this point.

My larp greatsword stance is highly effective, but not particularly realistic, as a boffer greatsword is much lighter than even a real longsword, what with just being foam and PVC. I tend to to take a deep bo stance, with the greatsword perpendicular to the ground, hilt low. I only get hit when someone comes at my from the flank or rear.

[Assasinater]

This is the system I was thinking on for a long time too, and I think you put it out very well.

But now, on to the details:

I would improve the dodge part a bit, and maybe allow it to iterate as well, using the base reflex save as a progression constant (base +6 allows you to dodge twice, +11 thrice, so on...). To balance, set the maximum amount of parry/dodges as the higher limit of two, but allow it to be mixed.

An example to clarify: A fighter with +11 BAB, and +8 to reflex saves may choose his parry/dodges at that round as such:

1st- Parry, at +11
2nd- Dodge, at +8
3rd- Parry, at +6

being the sensible one to choose, although one can choose something such as this:

1st- Parry, at +11
2nd- Dodge, at +8
3rd- Dodge, at +3

This makes the battle even longer than before, although I don't have much qualms with that (you may have).

On the counterattacks subject, a particular style/stance/feat chain may allow one to use his attacks right after/at the same time with the parry, while gaining some bonuses by doing so. Such a fighting style can be improved as well, for example, to denying an opponent a chance to parry the next attack, if one manages to dodge or parry an attack. Of course, there may be counters to this as well, gained either by the same feat/stances, reducing the complexity, or by different feat/stances, making a variable but even more complex system.

I hope what I wrote is somewhat clearer than I think it is. If not, well, dumb luck .

[Matthew]

This idea gets floated about once every couple of months. Here are some previous incarnations:

Active Parry Rules and Feats

Talanic & Erk [Interception]
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44108
Tough Tonka [D20 Parry]
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38214
Elliott20 [Parry System]
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36139
Magic8Ball [A parry type feat]
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34053
Munchy [Fighter Parry Feats]
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...t=23175&page=2
Matthew [Active Block]
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...t=22979&page=2

Of course, there was also a similar mechanic in (A)D&D; I always thought it was a pity it got dropped for 3.x.

For the record, I use a very similar system for my (A)D&D Campaigns - it works great.

This seems like an okay version. You probably shouldn't have Defensive Fighting apply a negative modifier to your Parry Roll (it sucks to do it that way in my experience). Personally, I use Dexterity or Strength, both for Shields and Weapons, as there is an argument for both being required for a successful Parry. Oh yeah. The thing to remember about this sort of system is that a lot of hits are going to have quite a high difficulty; this shouldn't be much of a problem because AC is going to be low in your games, but you should keep it in mind that many Parries and Dodges simply will not be successful because of the scores required to hit.

I'm going to have to purchase Arcana Evolved sometime. Does it contain an Active Parry System?

[Skjaldbakka]

You probably shouldn't have Defensive Fighting apply a negative modifier to your Parry Roll

An oversight. I put text for that under Combat Expertise, which should also go with fighting defensively.

As to the other suggestion, I would prefer to keep dodge seperate, as it is a different kind of action, and once I finish the combat techniques/stances, their will be modifiers to dodging/parrying such that keeping them seperate will be important.

Ex. (this is just an example, there isn't much work put into this concept yet)

Berserker Stance
You give no head to your own defense in combat, and focus on aggressively striking down your foe.

While in this stance, you gain +4 to attack and damage, and a -4 to parry and dodge. You gain a +4 bonus to overpower attempts while in this stance.

Shield Guard
You plant your shield in front of you, relying on it to ward off attacks.

While in this stance, all parry attempts are made with your shield, except against flankers, which you cannot parry with your shield (as per flanking parries). You gain your iterative parries(including bonus parries from feats) with your shield, and one parry with your weapon.

Twin Defense

You fight with both swords parrying the each attack.

While in this stance, you may roll twice and take the better result when parrying with a weapon. This uses up your off-hand parries of the round, at the same rate as your normal parries.

[Matthew]

You might also find it easier to make it equal or over to successfully Parry. Again just my experience of using the system that suggests this to me.

You might also want to consider how this interacts with Full Round Actions and Two Weapon/Multi Weapon Fighting. Granting a Free Parry with a Shield seems like a good idea, but why not with an Off Hand Weapon? The usual answer is to give Shields a Parry Bonus, and allow an Off Hand Parry for anyone with an Off Hand Weapon (maybe multiple times to boot).

Do you want Charging Characters to be able to make the same number of Parries as a Character engaged in a Full Round Attack? I'm not clear whether you make a distinction in these rules.

I have also found it useful to have a Parry Feat that greants +4 on Parry Attempts.

If you are using the Facing Rules the restrictions against Flankers makes sense. However, if you are not, I would not use this rule.

[Skjaldbakka]

I guess I failed to specify this, but two-weapon fighting gives you extra parries. You effectively can make as many parries as you could make attacks with a full attack, +1 if you use a shield.

I will probably wind up using facing, as I like the tactical aspect of grid battles.

[Matthew]

So, let me see if I have it straight:

Fighter 20
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting,
Equipment: Shield, Long Sword,

Number of Parries - 20/20/20/15/15/10/10/5

Is that on any Action?

[Edit] Do you need the Two Weapon Fighting Feat to benefit from an Off Hand Parry?

If you wanted to reduce the number of dice rolls, you might consider having some creatures 'take 10' and then treating it as One Shot Armour Class.

[Skjaldbakka]

No, but if use an off-hand parry, that parry is at a penalty appropriate to two-weapon fighting.

Fighter 20
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting,
Equipment: Shield, Long Sword,

Number of Parries - 20/20/20/15/15/10/10/5

Hadn't though about 2WF WITH a shield. I need to add something to the effect of the bonus parry from using a shield cannot be combined with two-weapon fighting


EDIT

If you wanted to reduce the number of dice rolls, you might consider having some creatures 'take 10' and then treating it as One Shot Armour Class.

I'm toying with that very idea, in fact. Actually in reverse, and have PCs roll parry against 10+attack bonus. That kinda makes it impossible for monsters to crit, though.

[Matthew]

Okay. Do Shields have a higher Parry Bonus than Daggers and other Off hand Weapons? You probably need to address the kind of Munchkins who carry two Shields to cirvcumvent this as well.

Also, you might want to think about Parries to Ranged Attacks. In my opinion, it should be possible with a Shield, but not with other Weapons.

[Triaxx]

Personally, I'd only allow parrying with a small shield, or buckler. Medium, and Tower Shields should have to be planted.

[Matthew]

What would make you think that? (Tower Shields maybe, but Heavy Shields?)

[Skjaldbakka]

Dual Shield ? ugh . . .

Bucklers have a -1 parry bonus, light shields a +1, and heavy shields a +2. Tower shields have a +4*. Shields can parry ranged attacks, as can melee weaponry, but melee weapons parry at a -5 against projectile weapons.

*this is effectively a +2 only, because using a tower shield penalizes your attack rolls by two, and parrying is an attack roll.

[Matthew]

Hmmn. They don't get much in the way of Parry Bonus. I'd have gone with:

Light: +2
Heavy: +4
Tower: +6 (but then Tower/Great Shields are Two Handed Shields in my games)

Yeah, you might be better off removing the +1 parry thing with the Shield, since you don't need the Two Weapon Fighting Feat to use Two Weapon Fighting, so it is already implicit that carrying a Shield in your Off Hand grants +1 Parry.

So (if I understand you correctly)

Fighter 5
Feats: Power Attack,
Equipment: Heavy Shield, Long Sword,

Number of Parries - 5/5

Fighter 5
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting,
Equipment: Heavy Shield, Long Sword,

Number of Parries - 5/5

Fighter 5
Feats: Power Attack,
Equipment: Long Sword, Long Sword,

Number of Parries - 5/5

Fighter 5
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting
Equipment: Long Sword, Long Sword,

Number of Parries - 5/5

[Skjaldbakka]

Fighter 5
Feats: Power Attack,
Equipment: Heavy Shield, Long Sword,

Number of Parries - 5+dex-power attack(sword)/5+str+2(shield)
OR 5+dex-power attack -6(sword)/5+str+2-10-power attack(TWF fighting penalties) if you attacked with both sword and shield that round (TWF penalties)[/

Fighter 5
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting
Equipment: Heavy Shield, Long Sword,

Number of Parries - 5+dex(sword)/5+str+2(shield)
OR 5+dex-4(sword)/5+str+2-4(shield) if you attacked with both sword and shield that round (TWF penalties apply to parry)

Fighter 5
Feats: Power Attack,
Equipment: Long Sword, Long Sword,

Number of Parries - 5+dex-power attack(sword)/5+dex-10-power attack(off hand longsword)
OR 5+dex-power attack -6(sword)/5+dex-10-power attack(off hand longsword) if you attacked with both swords that round (TWF penalties)


Fighter 5
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting
Equipment: Long Sword, Long Sword,

Number of Parries - 5+dex(sword)/5+dex-4(off-hand longsword)
OR 5+dex-4(sword)/5+dex-4(sword) if you attacked with both swords that round (TWF penalties apply to parry)

The stuff in bold is mine. I am assuming that is what you were looking for.

[Matthew]

Not quite, though that is a useful illustration of how things would work. What I was meaning is that there is no need for you to state that Shields grant +1 Parry "...and here's why" [i.e. because Two Weapon Fighting already covers things sufficiently, since you don't need to have the Feat to do it]. That would effectively shut down any Munchkins with Multiple Shields and any need to state that Two Weapon Fighting and Shield Bonus Parries don't overlap [i.e. there is no need to have special Shield Rules, as Off Hand Parries have already got you covered].

[Skjaldbakka]

I'm going to have to purchase Arcana Evolved sometime. Does it contain an Active Parry System?

No, it does not. It has weapons that grant a greater AC bonus from combat expertise, fighting defensively, and the Unfettered's Parry class feature, which allows the Unfettered to select an opponent, and gain a scaling bonus to AC against them. I think you would probably like the unfettered though.

[Yakk]

So, in an attempt to codify the above:

Dodge: Your Base Dodge is equal to your Reflex save, plus 1/3 of your Level (rounded down). (note: high-Reflex characters has a Dodge of +18 at L 20, low-Reflex characters have a Dodge of +12 at L 20).

Your armor check penalty applies to Dodge. Armor is hard to Dodge in.

Parry: Your Base Parry is equal to your BaB.

Defense: Dex modifies your Defenses, unless you are using a shield to parry, in which case you use Strength. A Defense is an opposed roll against the attack roll. On a success, the attack is considered to have missed.

Max Dex on your armor applies to using Dex on Defenses.

Iterative Defenses: A second defense is at -5 from the first one, even if you switch defense types. If your base Defense is +0 or under from this penalty, you cannot defend. Offhand parries/shield blocks are not penalized.

Ranged Weapons: You can either Dodge or us a Shield to Parry. Defense against Ranged Weapons is at -5 in either case. If you have Evasion, you can Dodge a ranged attack at no penalty.

Uncanny Dodge: Uncanny Dodge lets you Dodge while flat-footed. Improved Uncanny Dodge grants you an extra Dodge at full-Defense.

Monk Dodge: When Unarmored and Unencumbered: Monks add their Wisdom bonus to their Dodge and Parry, and an additional +1 every 5 Monk levels.

Secondly, a Monk has an unlimited supply of (Monk Level/2)+Wisdom bonus (plus Dex bonus if not flatfooted) Dodges that can even be used when flat-footed.

Thirdly, Monks gain bonus Parries whenever they gain a bonus attack via Flurry of Blows, and have their penalties taken away just like their attacks.

These abilities replaces the Monk's AC bonus.

Shields: If you are equiped with a standard weapon with a shield in your offhand, and you don't attack with a shield, you get the full set of iterative parries. These are at a -1/+1/+2/+4* bonus for Buckler/Light/Heavy/Tower.

Using a shield to Parry does give you a -2 penalty to Parries with your other weapon, however.

TWF: You gain iterative parries on an offhand weapon with the same feats that grant you iterative attacks. If you are parrying with both weapons, you suffer a Parry penalty as if you where attacking with both even if you are not.

Examples and Analysis:
Bob the 5th level Fighter. 16 str, 14 dex
Longsword and Shortsword, Naked.
Attacks: +6/+6
Parries: +5/+5
Dodge: +2

Longsword and Heavy Shield, Naked:
Attacks: +8
Parries: +5/+10
Dodge: +0 (shield armor check penalty)

Two-handed Sword, Naked:
Attacks: +8
Parries: +7
Dodge: +2

Monk, L 20. 20 Dex, 16 Wis (Weapon Finess: Unarmed)
Attacks: 20/20/20/15/10
Parries: 27/27*/27*/22/17
Dodge: 30/25/20/15
Unlimited Dodge: 13 FlatFooted, 18 not FlatFooted

*: Flurry of Parries, so can be used while Dodging

So the Monk's defenses are:
30/27/27/25/20/18...

Fighter, L 20, 22 Strength, 18 Dex, Mithril Breastplate
Longsword, Shield
Attacks: 26/21/16/11
Parries: 22/17/12/7 28/23/18/13
Dodge: 14/9/4

So the Fighter's defenses are:
28/23/22/18/17/13/12/7

The Monk is slightly ahead of the Fighter, but the Fighter gets a bonus 5 DR and more HP.

...

How is that for a formalization of your system?

I added in Dodge (Reflex + 1/3 level) and the Monk rules (because Monks need rules for this...), and tried to tidy up the shield rules.

[Skjaldbakka]

That is much cleaner, thank you. I had not really considered monk, because there won't be any in the campaign setting, however, for use in other games, they are needed.

I had set defense vs. ranged weapons as no penalty with dodge/shield parry, and a -5 penalty with a weapon parry. I also think there should be a distinction between projectile and thrown weapons (I don't think parrying a thrown weapon should be penalized, but bows/slings/crossbows should be).

I won't be using guns in the campaing I'm working on, but do you think they should be dodge/parry-able or not?

[Matthew]

I'm confused over this one:

Longsword and Heavy Shield, Naked:
Attacks: +8
Parries: +3/+10
Dodge: +0 (shield armor check penalty)

Why is the Long Sword Parry so low? And are we assuming TWF Feat here or is that Long Sword the 'Off Hand'? If so, when do you designate on and off Hands? Are they separate designations from combat? I'd have thought +7/+6 would be more normal here or +7/+10 if he has TWF.

[Yakk]

Oops -- I think I applied:

Using a shield to Parry does give you a -2 penalty to Parries with your other weapon, however.

twice!

Fixed.

Longsword with Shield gets:
+5 BaB
+2 Dex
-2 Parry with Shield
= +5 Parry with LS

+5 BaB
+3 Str
+2 Shield Parry Bonus
= +10 Parry with Shield

So +5/+10.

Overall, looking at TWF vs S+B vs 2HF, we get:

TWF and S+B have significant advantages against multiple opponents -- having more high-iteration defenses sort of rocks.

Against a single attack, S+B is best, followed by 2HF, followed by TWF.

Full-BaB classes generally find Parry more powerful than Dodge.

For Dodge, you really really want as little armor as possible. Dodging in armor is hard!

Non Full-BaB classes with high Reflex will find Dodge better than Parry, if they aren't using armor. Rogues for example.

Wizards with crappy BaB and crappy Reflex find Dodge slightly better if they are unarmored.

[Skjaldbakka]

Using a shield to Parry does give you a -2 penalty to Parries with your other weapon, however.

I believe this was in response to 'why don't you have shields work as two-weapon fighting'. I see no reason for this penalty to exist (except with tower shields).

[Matthew]

Is there a Parry Modifier for Dagger, Short Sword, Long Sword and Great Sword that needs to be applied?

[Skjaldbakka]

none of those weapons have a parry modifier.

[Matthew]

So what is your thinking behind dividing Weapons and Shields into Dexterity and Strength Modified Cateogories for the purposes of Parrying? Are you attempting to reflect something about the reality of using such arms or is there a game balance consideration at work?

Fighter 5 AB 5(7),
Strength 15, Dexterity 14,
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting,
Equipment: Heavy Shield, Long Sword,

Standard Attack Action: Primary Attack 7, Primary Parry 7, Off Hand Parry 9, Dodge 4,
Full Attack Action: Primary Attack 5, Off Hand Attack 5, Primary Parry 5, Off Hand Parry 7, Dodge 4,

I take it the above is correct?

Are Armour Check Modifiers really going to be helpfully introduced here? Maybe Dexterity Modifier Caps, but Armour Check Penalties seem way too severe to me.