Dreadful things

[Ceridan]

Hi again, I have a question for the forum. I am planning to use a Dread Necromancer aginst my party, and I want him to to be a BBEG. I have his back story and set down to put this master of the dead on paper. While doing the build I found a tree a feats I wish him to have. There in lay the problem. Corpsecrafter is the root of this feat tree. It gives an +4 enhancement bonus to STR and 2 HP per HD. Dread Necromaners get Undead Mastery that gives a +4 enhancement bonus to STR and DEX as well as 2 HP per HD. It seems the bonuses do not stack so, Does my BBEG, according to RAW, need Corpsecrafter when he has a better version to start with anyway?

Thanks in advance.

[SITB]

You are the DM right? So if you think that Corpsecrafter is the same as Undead Mastery you can declare it as a houserule.

However others will have to answer if that's "balanced" or not since I haven't got a clue.

[SoulCatcher78]

If you say so, then yes. If you leave his/her stats laying about the players might wonder why you did such a thing but as stated above, it's your game so go with how you want it to be.

[rollfrenzy]

UHHH.... as a player in that game......I "wonder why he did such a thing". really, the way I see it since theres a rule 0, everything the DM does is RAW

[Corolinth]

Does he have to? Technically, yes.

Do you have to? Are you the DM? Rules are for players. They need the rules spelled out for them because they aren't allowed to cheat. But really, "cheating" is such a strong word. You're not really cheating, you're just making your own rules.

Now, personally I'd probably just go ahead and give him corpsecrafter to be rules compliant and feel good about myself. It's only one feat.

Later on, a few sessions down the road after the campaign has developed a little bit (you did say this was the Big Bad, right?) and the players have gotten their party cohesion together, I'll be looking for a new way to foil them and make this big nasty a challenge. I'll want to give him a new trick up his sleeve that they didn't know about before. I find a fancy new feat that has style, and really fits this Big Bad. Corpsecrafter gets dropped, and replaced with New Shiny.

You run it like the villain has always had that ability, he just didn't use it. You never show your players your whole hand. Furthermore, since you didn't know what this ability was going to be, you aren't tempted to blow the surprise. Finally, because you're choosing it after seeing how they go after this guy, you can make it something that's really going to challenge your players.

[Dausuul]

Hi again, I have a question for the forum. I am planning to use a Dread Necromancer aginst my party, and I want him to to be a BBEG. I have his back story and set down to put this master of the dead on paper. While doing the build I found a tree a feats I wish him to have. There in lay the problem. Corpsecrafter is the root of this feat tree. It gives an +4 enhancement bonus to STR and 2 HP per HD. Dread Necromaners get Undead Mastery that gives a +4 enhancement bonus to STR and DEX as well as 2 HP per HD. It seems the bonuses do not stack so, Does my BBEG, according to RAW, need Corpsecrafter when he has a better version to start with anyway?

Thanks in advance.

The enhancement bonuses do not stack. The hit point bonuses are unnamed, so I'm pretty sure those do stack. Hit points are one of the big weaknesses of undead, so it's actually not a bad idea.

Anyway, to answer your question, yes, you still need Corpsecrafter according to RAW. Depending on your DMing philosophy, this may or may not matter. My BBEGs tend to have their stats revised on the fly anyhow, but I do try to stick to the rules when building them (or else make up my own rules from scratch).

[Skjaldbakka]

It gives an +4 enhancement bonus to STR and 2 HP per HD. Dread Necromaners get Undead Mastery that gives a +4 enhancement bonus to STR and DEX as well as 2 HP per HD.

I'd put this under the 'virtual feats' category. I don't remember where this is, but I believe there is a rule somwhere that says if you have a class feature that grants the same benefit as a required feat, you are considered to have that feat for the purposes of meeting prereqs.

[Corolinth]

That brings to mind another idea. Libris Mortis was written before Heroes of Horror, and by different people. The Heroes of Horror design team could've said, "Let's give him Corpsecrafter as a bonus feat." "Hey, let's make it a little better, and call it something different." They also could've just designed the class feature, without even noticing there was a feat that did the same thing.

Your options are wide open. Who's to say you can't fudge the rules a bit, and say that if your Big Bad has both, his undead get a +6 or +8 to strength?

However, I think your best bet is go write down corpsecrafter as a "placeholder" feat and allow his class feature to count for opening up the rest of the corpsecrafter line of feats, then wait to see how things develop before you decide that last remaining feat.

[Zaeron]

I think the easiest way to handle this is to ask yourself, "would I let a PC replace the corpsecrafter feat with this class ability, if it was a PC taking this feat tree instead of myself?"

If your answer is "yes", then I think it's more than fair for you to as well. If your answer is "no", well, you are the DM, and BBEGs always get more squirm room than a PC would in order to allow you to challenge the PCs, but... I'd think twice.

However, I definately wouldn't let the bonuses stack. +8str on a zombie or skeleton makes even very low level undead a danger to a midlevel party.

[Everyman]

I believe Zaeron has probably phrased my response best.

As far as a houserule goes, I (as a DM) would allow people to take the Corpsecrafter tree once they get this ability. It seems perfectly reasonable to me, since the class ability does the same thing and more. Just be aware that allowing yourself to do this means you should be open to your PCs doing the same.

[Corolinth]

That's rather the point. The mooks are suddenly a threat that must be dealt with. Rather than just letting the zombies sit around and miss everybody. They don't get turn resistance (that's a separate feat). Their AC doesn't improve (that's a separate feat). Lower level zombies aren't even significantly harder to kill depending on the party's level (+4-8 hit points doesn't slow down a level 10 party all that much).

It is an issue to take into consideration, you're right. You bring up a very valid point. But remember that the entire point of the dread necromancer, and the corpsecrafter feat line that the original poster is interested in, is to make even very low level undead a very real danger to a midlevel party. It appears he's already decided that's what he wants. The question now is how much of a danger he wants them to present?

It's possible that would be too much for the party, I will not deny that. It could also be just what the doctor ordered. We don't know how tough this party is. Personally, I like my initial suggestion of using the corpsecrafter feat as an open feat slot to tweak the villain later in the campaign to adapt to the party's strategy. But if he wants the undead to be more of a presence in the campaign and have the Big Bad hiding back in the shadows until the final showdown, then giving the undead another extra bump would be more appropriate than making the Big Bad more dynamic.

[Zaeron]

Hm, good point, Corolinth.

The only real problem I see with that is that CR 1/2 undead with an attack bonus somewhere around.. +6? Dealing 1d6+5 or more damage are quite a bit stronger than their listed CR. As long as you remember that, it probably wouldn't be a big deal though.

[Corolinth]

The class feature the Dread Necromancer class gets that resembles corpse crafter comes at level 8. So technically he's still going to need corpsecrafter to take the rest of that feat tree before level 9 (though this is a case where you may be fudging for the Big Bad to make things a challenge). With a villain that level, the party can't be any lower than 5 (and if they're 5, they're probably intended to level up before fighting him).

Even at level 5, what does a party have to combat zombies? Fireball will do the trick pretty well. The standard 2HD human zombie gets destroyed if a level 4+ cleric turns it (although one of the corpsecrafter feats grants turn resistance - they can still be turned reliably, just not destroyed). A human zombie has what, 16-20 hit points and a 14AC? Fighters are hacking through that like butter. He has to take that in to account as well as the +6 attack bonus that the zombie would have. If his party is level 8, they're even more well-equipped to deal with these beefed up zombies.

Does a screaming horde of thirty level 1 orcs with a 28str present a challenge to a level 10 party? Fireball! Does a screaming horde of five level 1 orcs with a 28str present a challenge to a level 10 party?

But you do bring up a very good point. If he's making them tougher, he should also assign an ad hoc experience modifier to them. When you stack the cards against your players, you give them a little extra for beating the odds.

And he doesn't have to stack them completely. Instead of +8str +4dex +4hp per die, he could make it +6str +4dex and +3hp per die. Keep in mind, although it may appear to be a class/feat balance discussion, it's not. The earlier question someone asked of whether or not he'd let his players do this is completely moot. What we're really discussing here is adventure building, and the character balance question is a red herring. He wants a necromancer villain, and he wants to make undead a major threat for this story arc. The undead are going to be slightly tougher than what's listed in the book. All he really has to do is just change the numbers, no reasoning need be given. The outline looks something like this:

What: tougher than usual undead
Why: badass necromancer that creates tougher undead
How: x, y, and z feats

It could also look like this:
Who: badass necromancer
What: creates tough undead
How: x, y, and z feats

Well, the "how" could have been answered just as easily with a template (either made up, or pulled from various sourcebooks), or with some homebrewed magic item or artifact that the party has to destroy after the villain is defeated. Or, the answer could just be, "I changed a few numbers."

NPC creation, especially for villains, works completely different than PC creation. PCs make characters to survive a campaign, and contribute something to their group. They work within the frame of the written and house rules to make a character that's balanced for the game, and that particular campaign. They get to pick skills and abilities in line with what a character their level should be powerful enough to accomplish.

A villain is made for a few fights, usually one and rarely more than three. There may be a few more noncombat encounters with this character. You're not balancing this villain for extended play. You decide how you want the villain to challenge the players, and then you give the villain the abilities he needs to do that. The PCs would be overpowered if they could do the things I'm suggesting this villain do (change a feat on the fly based on whatever he needs, or create +8str uberzombies), but the PCs are not being killed by an intrepid band of heroes during their first fight on the big screen.