CR 8? No Way.

[Fax Celestis]

I ran my party of 7 ECL 7s against this monster last night. It comes from the White Plume Mountain adventure, and is typed as CR 8.

ADVANCED HUGE MONSTROUS CRAB (CR 8)

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N Huge vermin (aquatic)
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, Listen +0, Spot +4
AC 22, touch 8, flat-footed 22
hp 107 (16 HD)
Immune mind-affecting effects
Fort +12, Ref +5, Will +5
Spd 30 ft. (6 squares)
Melee claw +18 (2d6+8) or
Melee 2 claws +18 (2d6+8)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Base Atk +12; Grp +32
Atk Options constrict 4d6+8, improved grab
Abilities Str 26, Dex 11, Con 14, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 2
SQ amphibious
Feats Toughness^B
Skills Hide –4, Spot +4

Amphibious (Ex): Although an advanced Huge monstrous crab is aquatic, it can survive indefinitely on land.

Constrict (Ex): An advanced Huge monstrous crab deals damage equal to twice its normal claw damage plus its Strength bonus on a successful grapple check.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an advanced Huge monstrous crab must hit with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

The party survived the fight only because I was using the Constrict rules wrong. Every time the crab attacked, it swung with two claws at +18, with 15' reach. If it hit with one claw, it immediately made a grapple check at +32.

These claws never missed, and the grapples were impossible to beat. If I had followed the constrict rules, every time the crab got a turn, it would have been dealing 8d6+32 damage (an average of 60). A d10 HD character with a Con of 16 has an average of 72 hp. In essence, anyone with a d8 or lower would have been one-shotted, and anyone who survived would have had to have made a massive damage save.

This can't possibly be CR 8. And yet, it is. Where'm I wrong?

[Hadrian_Emrys]

You're not man. That critter is good for two to three party kills before going down if confronted point blank.

[Callix]

It doesn't look like you are wrong. A 16HD animal with STR 26, Improved Grab and Constrict AND a 15ft reach is too tough for 8th level parties. Short of having a Medium-sized hole to hide in and shoot from, there's not much you can do. This is the writer's goof, not yours IMO.

[GoblinJTHM]

you mean they saw this thing and didn't go starship troopers all over it? please.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Starship Troopers A.K.A. die horribly in their first encounter.

[Dhavaer]

They advanced That Damn Crab!? It's broken when normal, and it's not any better when advanced, apparently.

[bigbaddragon]

Constrict (Ex): An advanced Huge monstrous crab deals damage equal to twice its normal claw damage plus its Strength bonus on a successful grapple check.

Atk Options constrict 4d6+8 = 2 * (normal claw damage = 2d6) + (Str modifier = 8)

This is how I would read/understand/apply it. But this doesn't change the fact that +32 grapple is to much.

[silentknight]

I thought that constrict dealt regular damage (4d6+8) automatically, but the constricted creature had to get out of the grapple to avoid it.

I'm not sure where the double weapon damage (4d6 x2 = 8d6) or quadruple Str mod (8 x4 =32) in your calculation comes from.

erm...nevermind

[Skjaldbakka]

The CR is probably wrong, however, there are two things that the party should have had access to, that would have made things easier:

Fly spells
Ranged Attacks.

EDIT- Also, unless it takes -20 to grapple, it becomes vulnerable to sneak attack. 4 level 8 characters would have a problem dealing with that if they didn't use good strategy(I think that is the definition of CR 9-10), but 7 level 7s should have have been able to take it easy.

[Fax Celestis]

The Constrict works like this: Claw attacks at d20+18. If it hits (which it probably will, dealing 2d6+8), it gets an immediate grapple check (at d20+32). If it succeeds on this grapple check, it immediately deals double claw damage (4d6+16). During a full attack, it gets 2 claws +18, for 4d6+16 damage, plus the potential for a constrict at 4d6+16. In fact, it gets two constricts if it hits with both claws.

As for being vulnerable, if it one-shots you, it doesn't have to maintain grapple, thereby making it harder to SA, etc.

And flight/ranged attacks? When you're inside a 60' wide, 30' tall membrane, fly doesn't do much, particularly when it has a +8 jump mod and 15' reach. Ranged attacks ping off it's AC 22, unless you somehow swing a touch attack at it.

This is one tough sucker.

[Corolinth]

Few things

1) Characters rarely have average hit points.
2) The nature of D&D is very random and streaky. A +18 attack bonus can still very realistically miss an AC of 22 (trust me).
3) Huge creatures are nasty.
4) A huge crab shouldn't be using both claws to grapple the same medium-sized character. The rules don't say you can't, but it doesn't make sense both from a tactical standpoint and spatial relations.
5) I realize it's typed as a vermin, but crabs should be animals. Which brings me to...
6) Animal intelligence.

A crab should be susceptible to wild empathy and other abilities that effect animals. If you're using the claws against different PCs, instead of going after the same one, the damage becomes more manageable. Dumb creatures are generally less challenging, despite any innate toughness they have. A crab who gets shocked with a lightning bolt should probably drop one or more grappled characters because he's dumb, in pain, and generally surprised. Intelligence is something a lot of DMs overlook when they run encounters.

Also, I see you're running seven characters. I'll concur that seven should've had no problem (although that doesn't mean nobody's dying). A CR is balanced for four characters. I'm pretty sure that if this were typed as an animal instead of a vermin, given an intelligence score of 1 so that it's not mindless, and run like the dumb crab it's supposed to be, a level 8 party could defeat it.

[Yechezkiel]

That is the coolest, nastiest looking crab monster and I've got to throw it at some party now.

[tbarrie]

By far my favorite part of that write-up is that they gave it Toughness as a bonus feat.

[Skjaldbakka]

AC 22? That isn't high AC for CR 8. The surrounding terrain negates its lack of ranged attacks, but you didn't mention that earlier. Terrain that gives it an advatantage is at least a +1 CR, probably +2 since the terrain negates its biggest weakness.

But still: level 7, so 7 BAB +probably 3-4 attack stat, + probably 1 or 2 enhancement is a +11-13 AB. With 7 people, I would expect that you have a ranged attack specialist.


Given the terrain, I'm not surprised that it was so rough. At level 7, a space of 1 or 2 CR is still pretty large.

[crazedloon]

well I think you may be mistaken sorta (its still a tough sucker) but when you hit and win the grapple check the critter is in a grapple and thus takes all the negatives. and once in a grapple you only get extra attacks from a high enough attack bonus (at least I am 90% sure of that) so he is in grapple and will only get 1 grapple attempt each round which is your (2*2d6)+8. So in order to keep using all his claws he would need to grapple (via the hit and Improved Grab) do constrict damage then next round "escape" with a standard action and wait another turn.

At least that is how I think it works not much better for the group but It think it is a CR encounter.

[Fax Celestis]

1) Characters rarely have average hit points.

I've provided my characters the option of either rolling for HP or taking average. Most have taken average.

2) The nature of D&D is very random and streaky. A +18 attack bonus can still very realistically miss an AC of 22 (trust me).

The crab rolled well, and hit on every claw attack.

3) Huge creatures are nasty.

Yes, but this is particularly nasty.

4) A huge crab shouldn't be using both claws to grapple the same medium-sized character. The rules don't say you can't, but it doesn't make sense both from a tactical standpoint and spatial relations.

Why not? It picks you up in both claws, crushes you, and tears you in half. Now that you're dead, it moves to its next target.

5) I realize it's typed as a vermin, but crabs should be animals. Which brings me to...

They should be, but they're (surprisingly) not.

6) Animal intelligence.

They're actually mindless, which means that they're less dangerous than they could be. Sure, they're immune to mind-affecting effects, but if this sucker had intelligence, he'd have feats, too, and somehow I see this guy with Improved Grapple and other feats being far more dangerous. He would get 6 feats to choose from. How about Power Attack and Improved Grapple?

[MandibleBones]

If it hit with one claw, it immediately made a grapple check at +32.

Call me crazy, but I don't know a lot of ECL8 characters who can win at grapple against 1d20+32 on a regular basis - if at all.

[Jasdoif]

Where'd they get +32 Grapple, anyway? I came up with +28. (+12 BAB, +8 Str, +8 size).

I'd also be quite interested to see the pre-advancement crab stats, including its original CR.

[Corolinth]

Most creatures don't have extra attacks for high BAB. They have additional natural weapons instead. So yes, he would get the grapple for each claw.

As for terrain, why don't they get out of that area? I've never read white plume mountain, so I don't know what the terrain is like, however if they got in they ought to be able to get out.

[ByeLindgren]

The crab being vermin and thus mindless is actually a benefit due to that meager will save. Its offense goes up as an animal, but there are so many ways to one-shot it before it can do anything.

As is, I'd CR that monstrosity much higher than 8.

[Fax Celestis]

Where'd they get +32 Grapple, anyway? I came up with +28. (+12 BAB, +8 Str, +8 size).

I'd also be quite interested to see the pre-advancement crab stats, including its original CR.

The original creature is the Monstrous Crab in Stormwrack.

[crazedloon]

Most creatures don't have extra attacks for high BAB. They have additional natural weapons instead. So yes, he would get the grapple for each claw.

As for terrain, why don't they get out of that area? I've never read white plume mountain, so I don't know what the terrain is like, however if they got in they ought to be able to get out.

I realize that but I guess I was just interpreting this line from the SRD

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

(Emphasis mine)

To mean you can not do more then 1 unless you gain more attacks via BaB but then I may be wrong I was never good at understanding smaller things like this without someone explaining how it should be interpreted.

[Jasdoif]

So it's in a book I don't have. Figures.

I don't believe its CR is justified, but I did come up with a possible way to handle the thing. I just realized that repel vermin isn't just a ranger spell, a level 7 cleric or druid can prepare it. That might be enough to get a party by it (or at least hold it off while pelting the thing with ranged attacks), I don't believe a mindless vermin should have the option of ignoring pain.

[Deepblue706]

Mmm Mmm! Looks great!

I agree, it's not CR 8. I'd say it's PERFECT for a group of level 1 adventurers. At least, that's what I'll say when my PCs ask - and when they die I'll just say they used poor tactics.

[Fax Celestis]

I realize that but I guess I was just interpreting this line from the SRD

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

(Emphasis mine)

To mean you can not do more then 1 unless you gain more attacks via BaB but then I may be wrong I was never good at understanding smaller things like this without someone explaining how it should be interpreted.

The crab isn't getting extra attacks for BAB; it's getting extra attacks for having extra natural weapons. Not the same thing.

[Dhavaer]

Where'd they get +32 Grapple, anyway? I came up with +28. (+12 BAB, +8 Str, +8 size).

I'd also be quite interested to see the pre-advancement crab stats, including its original CR.

That Damn Crab

[Corolinth]

I'll cover these in order.

I've provided my characters the option of either rolling for HP or taking average. Most have taken average.

Groovy.

The crab rolled well, and hit on every claw attack.

As expected, but this doesn't in any way mean that hitting is a given. Luck is a factor in any fight.
[QUOTE=Fax_Celestis;2795665]Yes, but this is particularly nasty.[quote]No arguments here. Doesn't mean it's too powerful for a level 8 party.

Why not? It picks you up in both claws, crushes you, and tears you in half. Now that you're dead, it moves to its next target.

Why not? How about because it's a big honking claw picking up a five and a half foot human? Where's it going to put the second claw? The second reason is that two people grappled and taking constrict damage is better than one. This is a creature that feels pain. It's also a stupid crab. It doesn't think, "How can I kill them fastest?" It thinks, "Rawr! Hurting! Make that person stop hurting me!"

They should be, but they're (surprisingly) not.

It's not your fault the writer typed this creature wrong. You're a reasonably smart person running a game. Fix it.

They're actually mindless, which means that they're less dangerous than they could be. Sure, they're immune to mind-affecting effects, but if this sucker had intelligence, he'd have feats, too, and somehow I see this guy with Improved Grapple and other feats being far more dangerous. He would get 6 feats to choose from. How about Power Attack and Improved Grapple?

Yes, I see they're actually mindless. I also see where they're actually vermin. Now granted, they're likely made mindless vermin to intentionally not give them feats, but that doesn't change the fact that a crab is an animal and should be susceptible to wild empathy, hold animal, and other such effects.

However, none of this addresses the major point which is that this crab is dumb. Run it like it's dumb. That person who threw a lightning bolt at me? Scarey! Run away and hide! Nevermind that I'm big and bad and can rip him in half, he just through lightning at me and it hurt! This crab is not a tactical genius, and that's why it's CR8. The PCs can win because they're able to outsmart it.

[crazedloon]

The crab isn't getting extra attacks for BAB; it's getting extra attacks for having extra natural weapons. Not the same thing.

I relize that what I am saying is in a grapple it should only get 1 "Attack" becuase as I read it getting any extra attacks in a grapple only happens if your BaB provides for more. Feel free to say otherwise.


Just to keep on topic what are the memebers of the party that had to fight this thing?

[Fax Celestis]

The problem with the "ohgodI'mhurtingflee" reaction of the crab is two things: 1. It had nowhere to run to. The PCs had invaded its nest; and 2. they really weren't hurting it that much. I think the hardest hit it took was about 20 damage.

Also, the +32 grapple comes from an ability they forgot to list:

Powerful Claws (Ex): A monstrous crab always applies 1.5 times its Strength modifier to damage inflicted with its claws. Additionally, it gains a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks.

[Corolinth]

The crab being vermin and thus mindless is actually a benefit due to that meager will save. Its offense goes up as an animal, but there are so many ways to one-shot it before it can do anything.

Not true. It's mindless, which means its meager will save is a moot point. Most will saves are mind-effecting spells and abilities, and this crab does not have a mind to effect. Furthermore, it doesn't have a meager will save so much as average for a 16HD animal. You'll notice its wisdom is 11.

To mean you can not do more then 1 unless you gain more attacks via BaB but then I may be wrong I was never good at understanding smaller things like this without someone explaining how it should be interpreted.

Repeat after me: Rules are for players.

Basically, monsters are run by slightly different rules. Once you accept that, it's a whole lot easier to understand.