Mystic Swordsage:

[Hadrian_Emrys]

As DMs and players, how do you guys feel about this version of swordsage that seems be something akin to a warlock/dragonfire adept but infinitely more flexable and possibly rule abusive? How would you run it and what restrictions would you place upon the class?

[Ramza00]

Keep it the hell away from the celerity line of spells. Keep it the hell away from the polymorph line of spells. See below box for why (its gestalt info, but same rational for other play)

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Been gone for a week, so yes I am bring up a post on the second page but I have something to add.

Here is a great Gestalt Combination I came up with.

Cleric/Swordsage

or Druid/Swordsage

With one of the two adaptations. Lose Light Armor Profiency and get the Monk Unarmed Damage Progression (But not flurry).

Or the better one. Lose Light Armor Profiency, and make the Swordsage hd d6 and get the ability to cast spells from the wizard schools of transmutation, evocation, and abjuration as manuvers. When you gain 4th lvl manuevers you gain 4th lvl wizard spells of those lvls. These spells/manuevers recharge like they were manuevers thus you get them ever battle. Note all the time related spells (timestop and celerity chain) are transmutation, they recharge like manuevers thus timestop every battle.

This is really sick.

• Cleric//Swordsage
• d8 hp, all good saves, 6 skill points, wisdom synergy (wis to ac)
• Get a true dragonmark. Buy the dragonmark book. There is a feat that you can take that makes you immune to daze (requires a true dragonmark). There is a feat that you can also get in that book that makes never be flatfooted (also requires a true dragonmark, you can get both.)
• Since you are never flatfooted you always have an immediate action. Thus you can cast normal celerity (gives standard action at the expense of a 4th lvl spell, immediate action, and being dazed which you are now immune). Celerity is an immediate action which means you can use it even when its not your turn, thus you always get the first move in the battle. Use the standard action to cast timestop. You got 1d4 rounds to do whatever. Now buff (shapechange is a transmutation spell), divine power, etc.
• Kick ass, remember you still have the full round celerity, and the move action celerity you can use at any time.
• You also have Divine Metamagic, Thus you can go persistent, or quicken, or twin (2d4 rounds of timestop sounds nice).
• You also have full cleric casting.

You never lose a battle, your DM retires your character for he gets pissed off at it

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=71

Also don't allow the "mystical" adapation of swordsage. This allows a swordsage to learn transmutation, evocation, and abjuration spells instead of maneuvers at the same time you could learn a manuever and the same rules. Spells are greater and more powerful than manuevers of the same lvl. Giving the spells the same recharge method as manuevers means you will have a sorcerer who can throw out 6 9th lvl spells per encounter. Need I point out all the time related, polymorph spells are transmuation one of the three types of spells you can learn with the adapation. Additionally 3/4s of the good buffing spells are transmuation or abjuration. If you don't you will have this encounter at

I cast Greater Celerity so I always go first.
I then cast Timestop so I always have time to buff.
I then cast Shapechange.
I then cast some more buffs of my choosing.
Timestop wears off, I kick ass, I then spend 1 minute to refresh all my manuevers and I am then ready to kick ass next battle.

Oh the mystical adapation also gives the swordsage d6 hps, 6 skill points per lvl and 3/4 bab more than a typical wizard ;) This is under adapation so you can not allow such a person you know will powergame have such a pc and you have banning powers outright.

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Note this isn't normal TOB, this is under the "adapation" of Swordsage. The Monk adapation though on the other hand is a great and balanced adapation.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=12

May be way too cheesy for you, just posting what you can do with the mystical adapation of swordsage which works great with cleric.

You need to allow spells on a case by case basis. As given with the rules under adaptation, there are way too much options, way too many cheese. Giving wiz/sorc spells of transmutation, abjuration , and evocation and have them used as manuevers and learned as manuevers is just way too open ended. Transmutation and abjuration are the best 2 wizard school out of all 8. Giving a person effectively a sorcerer's spells known, but they refresh after each encounter is allowing a sorcerer to cast 6 9th lvl spells per round.

[Ramza00]

Transmutation has
Buff spells
Polymorph spells
Time related spells
Flight related spells
A few good damage spells such as disentigrate

Abjurration spells
Protection Spells
Barrier Spells
Dispel Magic

Evocation
Damage spells (which become more useful with a sorcerer know all spells at once, and can use them wheenver you want.)
Contigency

These variant can be balanced, just takes alot of back and forth from the DM and player in what the DM will not allow.

[TSGames]

As DMs and players, how do you guys feel about this version of swordsage that seems be something akin to a warlock/dragonfire adept but infinitely more flexable and possibly rule abusive? How would you run it and what restrictions would you place upon the class?

It doesn't seem broken or overpowered to me, however, I am no expert in knowledge of balance or all things mechanical. I think I would not alter it any more than the variant has already required. As long as the schools are appropriately restricted there shouldn't be an issue of being overpowered. Consider the drawbacks: the d6 hit die, the loss of armor, and only knowing spells of mostly touch or personal range. It is never a good idea for a squishy caster to go into melee, and a d6 HD still makes for quite the squishy caster. Depending on how you adapt some of the martial adept feats it could break the variant. My suggestion is to simply not adapt the feats for the class which makes several of the feats normally useful to a swordsage quite useless to the variant. It's certainly not overpowered, and depending on how strict the DM is with metamagic feats the class could actually end up being quite underpowered.

[Ramza00]

The swordsdage has more high lvl spells known than a sorcerer, but less total spells known. Thing is the swordsage can unleash all his high level spells in one encounter, since they refresh completely after the encounter (or after a full round action.)

Don't forget you can get extra granted manuever, or extra readied manuever with a feat. That throws off the table a little above if you take the feat.

Remember your spells known isn't the same as your spells readied. Long buffs such as overland flight, or mind blank can be used, cast on a person, and then since you no longer need it anymore rotated out of your manuever readied for just 10 mins of mediation. (Yes at lvl 15 a swordsage will always be casting mindblank on all 3 or 6 other party members, and then switch it out. An equivalent wizard can only do that to 1 or 2 party members and that would be his only 8th lvl spell.)

Remember you also have a good reflex and a good will. As well as 3/4 bab, and evasion and quick to act.

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As a DM I would play it by ear, besides flat out banning polymorph related spells. And say yes or no to other spells.

How as a player I would play it? d6 hit points, 3/4 bab, and 6+int skill points, and good buff spells would cause me to be a mixture between an artificer and a beguiler. You won't be a full wizard, yet you can let out high level spells all the time. It would depend on what my DM allowed me. It says focus on personal and range touch spells, yet it never says you can't use range spells. Things such as fly, timestop, mind blank, etc are all obviously allowed.

But what about disentigrate allowed? Is polar ray? Is resilent sphere? Is force cage? Is dispel magic?

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I'm going to be trying this out as a player in Ravenloft. The thing I like is the ability to use such spells as Dimension Hop and with magic one can actually make use of a bow with "maneuvers" such as Melf's/Unicorn/Bone arrow and guided shot. Then there's the super magic rogue/ninja- ew, makes me think naruto flavor. Now I feel dirty.

[Who]

Where do you find the mystic swordsage, what book is it in?

[Zincorium]

Where do you find the mystic swordsage, what book is it in?

Tome of battle, it's in the Adaptations section at the back of the swordsage class entry.