Leomund's tiny fort

[Carlobrand]

Leomund's tiny hut - I've heard arguments that one cannot shoot arrows (or poke spears) out from inside it. On the other hand, the spell as written is pretty clear that objects inside when it's cast can exit the hut, and there's nothing that limits their speed when they're exiting. I don't see anything in RAW that prohibits it, which means such a limitation would be a house rule.

There is an understandable concern about a spell that creates a pillbox you can shoot from while the enemy can't hit back. However, it takes a minute to cast so this is not something that happens in the midst of battle, and it's immobile - the enemy can respond by simply moving out of range or hunkering behind cover. And, more importantly, it's the only way to discourage an enemy who spots a hut from simply camping outside and waiting a few hours for the tender vittles inside to emerge.

Of course, a clever enemy outside who retrieves the arrow(s) shot from inside would be able to shoot them back inside - it'd be a blind shot, but that could get entertaining.

[HarrisonF]

Per sage advice, you can't shoot out:

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/22/...unds-tiny-hut/

I tend to side with sage on this one since it is a ritual and still really good even with the nerf.

With that said, it is still a really nice defensive fort. Archer moves out, takes a shoot or four and then moves back in. It works pretty well done bless there are a huge amount of enemies to threaten all surrounding spaces.

[TheFlyingCleric]

And, more importantly, it's the only way to discourage an enemy who spots a hut from simply camping outside and waiting a few hours for the tender vittles inside to emerge.

Elven Wizards. Long rests in just 4 hours, can then recast the hut as a ritual.
But who runs out of food first? Not whoever has the fifth level cleric in their hut as well!

[Giant2005]

Elven Wizards. Long rests in just 4 hours, can then recast the hut as a ritual.
But who runs out of food first? Not whoever has the fifth level cleric in their hut as well!

Elves still take 8 hours to complete a long rest. Not that it matters anyway considering it is a ritual spell - you don't need to be able to replenish your class resources to recast it.

[Socratov]

Leomund's tiny hut - I've heard arguments that one cannot shoot arrows (or poke spears) out from inside it. On the other hand, the spell as written is pretty clear that objects inside when it's cast can exit the hut, and there's nothing that limits their speed when they're exiting. I don't see anything in RAW that prohibits it, which means such a limitation would be a house rule.

There is an understandable concern about a spell that creates a pillbox you can shoot from while the enemy can't hit back. However, it takes a minute to cast so this is not something that happens in the midst of battle, and it's immobile - the enemy can respond by simply moving out of range or hunkering behind cover. And, more importantly, it's the only way to discourage an enemy who spots a hut from simply camping outside and waiting a few hours for the tender vittles inside to emerge.

Of course, a clever enemy outside who retrieves the arrow(s) shot from inside would be able to shoot them back inside - it'd be a blind shot, but that could get entertaining.

Consider this: you know an amry of goblins and orcs is coming and you need to defend the town. Now you give everyone in the town a shortbow and arrows. Create any number of Leomunds Glorious Pillboxes and put the people in there. Once the army arrives, keep the town safe, let people in with ammo batches which can be made in town because the town is safe and you have a perimiter.

[Giant2005]

Consider this: you know an amry of goblins and orcs is coming and you need to defend the town. Now you give everyone in the town a shortbow and arrows. Create any number of Leomunds Glorious Pillboxes and put the people in there. Once the army arrives, keep the town safe, let people in with ammo batches which can be made in town because the town is safe and you have a perimiter.

You would need a lot of wizards - each wizard is only capable of sustaining a single pillbox.

[Aharon]

You would need a lot of wizards - each wizard is only capable of sustaining a single pillbox.

Why? The spell doesn't require concentration, as far as I can see.

[Socratov]

You would need a lot of wizards - each wizard is only capable of sustaining a single pillbox.

4 casters who know the spell is enough. You get an extended perimiter in each of the cardinal directions. Might even be able to get there with 3, dpeeding on the size of the town. Oh, and tomelocks and Bards can cast it as well. So a 4 man party of melee, bard, tomelock and wizard can keep up 3 and cover the town. Then there is the fact of casting from scrolls, and the person casting the spell can shoot a bow as well. with 320 taken for the short bow range, your old perimeter was 320' from the town edge, so let's make that 400 considering that the town might be 160' in diameter (80'radius). the fact that you want a circle from your pillboxes and range with a 40' overlap for security reasons (can't have the enemy sneak past your range edge) this makes your radii from your pillboxes 300'. 3 pillboxes make a circle with 2*3*300 circumference (1800'), which makes for a circle with diameter 574' (ish), making a radius of 289' where the pillboxes will be placed for a perimeter (again at 300' for circle smoothing) of 289+300=589'

Sure, the pillboxes are shooting at disadvantage, but sa long as you have enough people willing to shoot the shortbows any army of gobbo's will get decimated. Oh, on top of that you are safe from spells, harm and the goggo's entering the sphere.

Used: 3 scrolls of tiny hut/3 bards/wizards/tomelocks, 3 people able to ride a horse to dispence arrows and an assortment of people able to use a short bow. if the people you use are proficient in longbows the effect becomes even stronger.

[Giant2005]

Why? The spell doesn't require concentration, as far as I can see.

Because if the caster leaves the pillbox, the pillbox disappears. So he has to stay there while the archers do their thing - he can't wander off to create another without the first disappearing on him.

[Giant2005]

Sure, the pillboxes are shooting at disadvantage, but sa long as you have enough people willing to shoot the shortbows any army of gobbo's will get decimated. Oh, on top of that you are safe from spells, harm and the goggo's entering the sphere.

It doesn't matter how many people are willing - each pillbox can only contain a total of 10 people. An army of goblins isn't going to enjoy running past the 10 archers protecting one side from their impenetrable pillbox, but it isn't going to stop them.

[Socratov]

It doesn't matter how many people are willing - each pillbox can only contain a total of 10 people. An army of goblins isn't going to enjoy running past the 10 archers protecting one side from their impenetrable pillbox, but it isn't going to stop them.

if the army is lvl 1 goblins, they have enough hp to survive about a hit. Let's assume 5 hits out of every 10 because disadvantage. Goblins move at most 60' a round, so 5 rounds to reach the pillbox. that's 3 rounds of 5 kills per round, then they are within normal range, so maybe 7 kills out of 10? Another 3 rounds means 21 kills for a total of 36 kills per pillbox. In 6 rounds. without any chance of harm. And after that they stay in range all the way to the town where the kills keep om happening. this is actually a viable strategy. Every bard/wizard/warlock you can get your hands on makes for an extra pillbox.

[MaxWilson]

It doesn't matter how many people are willing - each pillbox can only contain a total of 10 people. An army of goblins isn't going to enjoy running past the 10 archers protecting one side from their impenetrable pillbox, but it isn't going to stop them.

That reminds me of General Buford's men tangling up Hills' corps in Gettysburg. If the goblins hold their discipline and don't engage, they'll be fine; but if they "get their dander up", the pillbox could snarl up their whole attack.

Good movie.

[Sigreid]

Consider this. The way it is written you can launch misses out, but your opponents can launch those same misses back in.

[MaxWilson]

Consider this. The way it is written you can launch misses out, but your opponents can launch those same misses back in.

Also, hits.

[Kane0]

As an aside, Leomund's Instant Pillbox sounds like an awesome spell. Make it a 7th level concentration spell or so that when upcast can also be camoflaged/invisible.

[TheFlyingCleric]

Elves still take 8 hours to complete a long rest. Not that it matters anyway considering it is a ritual spell - you don't need to be able to replenish your class resources to recast it.

Elves can trance for 4 hours instead of sleeping for 8 hours. This matters because the spell only has a duration of 8 hours, and it takes at least a minute to recast it...


However, there is an inherent problem with fortresses. Military Engineers; soldiers trained to deal with this sort of thing. Your impenetrable hut of force is no good when some clever commander orders his men to cover it with dirt. And rocks. They still can't attack you, neither can you attack out. Or get out. Or get food (unless you have a 5th level cleric).


I could see a use for it in a castle siege type situation though. Put a sphere of force over a siege engine, and it can't be hit by other siege engines. Even Engineers will be hard pressed to get several tons of dirt up onto the engines tower.

[Giant2005]

if the army is lvl 1 goblins, they have enough hp to survive about a hit. Let's assume 5 hits out of every 10 because disadvantage. Goblins move at most 60' a round, so 5 rounds to reach the pillbox. that's 3 rounds of 5 kills per round, then they are within normal range, so maybe 7 kills out of 10? Another 3 rounds means 21 kills for a total of 36 kills per pillbox. In 6 rounds. without any chance of harm. And after that they stay in range all the way to the town where the kills keep om happening. this is actually a viable strategy. Every bard/wizard/warlock you can get your hands on makes for an extra pillbox.

The Pillbox itself isn't really doing much in that case - if there are so few goblins they would be crazy to attack even if the Archers were just standing there at max range, ready to strike.

Elves can trance for 4 hours instead of sleeping for 8 hours. This matters because the spell only has a duration of 8 hours, and it takes at least a minute to recast it...

Non-Elves only need to sleep for 6 hours.

[Sigreid]

As an aside, Leomund's Instant Pillbox sounds like an awesome spell. Make it a 7th level concentration spell or so that when upcast can also be camoflaged/invisible.

That spell used to be called Leomund's Secure Shelter. I liked it a lot.

[Socratov]

The Pillbox itself isn't really doing much in that case - if there are so few goblins they would be crazy to attack even if the Archers were just standing there at max range, ready to strike.

That makes it a perimeter increase. While the goblins know they can storm the town for plunder, it is really worth losing so many over it? the fact that you have an increased range for the town to defend itself makes for a better defense of the town. Those 36 goblins that died getting to the town walls are 36 goblins that can't rush the stockade or attempt to kill townspeople.

[TheFlyingCleric]

Non-Elves only need to sleep for 6 hours.

Went and reread the rules on short rest; the other two hours must be 'light activity'; and the context means that can't include spellcasting
But it also allows you to interrupt the rest with up to 1 hour of strenuous activity, including spellcasting, so yeah you're right.

Non-elven caster can sleep for 3 hours, get up, ritual cast the hut again, spend an hour or two going back to sleep, sleep for another 3 hours, and then get up rested again

[Carlobrand]

I take "Sage Advice" to be advisory, therefore worth considering but not in the same class as an official errata page or something similar. So far I'm not hearing anything that suggests RAW prevents it.

The use of the spell in siegecraft is interesting, but I don't see it as earthshaking. LTH is a 3rd level spell. Ergo, you have tied down your 5th or higher level mage - you know, the guy with the fireball and the flaming sphere - to maintain a pillbox for 9 combatants and/or a small siege engine. That still might be tactically preferable if you need a pillbox and didn't have time to construct a regular one (as for example when trying to hastily close a sudden breach in your wall). However, if you have multiple 5th level mages and all he has to answer with is goblins, then you already have a commanding edge, LTH or no, unless he's got a whole lotta goblins and they don't mind dying in large numbers - and as others have pointed out, a LTH improvised pillbox is vulnerable to some obvious counters. Something as simple as a fog cloud or darkness cast in front of it would prevent the occupants from spotting and targeting approachers.

Me, if I were facing one in siege conditions, I'd build mantlets and move the troops forward behind those. I consider a for-real pillbox to be the greater threat, because a 5th level mage inside one of those is free to hit me with lightning bolts and stinking clouds rather than being tied up maintaining a magical shell.

[Tanarii]

Consider this: you know an amry of goblins and orcs is coming and you need to defend the town. Now you give everyone in the town a shortbow and arrows. Create any number of Leomunds Glorious Pillboxes and put the people in there. Once the army arrives, keep the town safe, let people in with ammo batches which can be made in town because the town is safe and you have a perimiter.

Commoner with shortbow +0 to hit for 1d6 damage. Goblin AC 15, 7 hit points, spd 30ft. 2 hits required for a kill.

At range 320ft to 81ft: 9% chance of hit. 10 commoners can hit once per round. Time to cover distance: 3 rounds. Kills per pillbox: 1.5

At range 80 to 0ft: 30% chance to hit. 10 commoners can hit 3 times per round. Time to cover distance: just over one round, call it three as they keep going past and reach 80ft the other direction. Kills per pillbox: 4.5 kills.

Thats a total of six kills per pillbox until the Goblins are back out of close range. And assuming they don't have any way to take cover on the approach.

[TheFlyingCleric]

I take "Sage Advice" to be advisory, therefore worth considering but not in the same class as an official errata page or something similar. So far I'm not hearing anything that suggests RAW prevents it.

The use of the spell in siegecraft is interesting, but I don't see it as earthshaking. LTH is a 3rd level spell. Ergo, you have tied down your 5th or higher level mage - you know, the guy with the fireball and the flaming sphere - to maintain a pillbox for 9 combatants and/or a small siege engine. That still might be tactically preferable if you need a pillbox and didn't have time to construct a regular one (as for example when trying to hastily close a sudden breach in your wall). However, if you have multiple 5th level mages and all he has to answer with is goblins, then you already have a commanding edge, LTH or no, unless he's got a whole lotta goblins and they don't mind dying in large numbers - and as others have pointed out, a LTH improvised pillbox is vulnerable to some obvious counters. Something as simple as a fog cloud or darkness cast in front of it would prevent the occupants from spotting and targeting approachers.

Me, if I were facing one in siege conditions, I'd build mantlets and move the troops forward behind those. I consider a for-real pillbox to be the greater threat, because a 5th level mage inside one of those is free to hit me with lightning bolts and stinking clouds rather than being tied up maintaining a magical shell.

It's definitely not earthshaking, but it is very good for a 3rd level ritual that doesn't require concentration.

Furthermore, the wizard is not completely tied down while within the sphere. They can pick up a light crossbow themselves (they probably have a better DEX modifier than commoners at the very least, and they can add their proficiency bonus), and they can still cast spells targeting something inside the sphere. OR your familiar can deliver touch spells up to 100 feet

This means they can't fireball enemies outside, but they can still cast a buff on an ally within the sphere, and have that ally walk out. Fly is a good spell for this; the target doesn't have to worry about you getting hit by a stray arrow and losing concentration.

Or you could cast enhance ability Bull's Strength on one or two of those Engineers who are loading the catapult. Fire rate increase right there.

[Socratov]

Commoner with shortbow +0 to hit for 1d6 damage. Goblin AC 15, 7 hit points, spd 30ft. 2 hits required for a kill.

At range 320ft to 81ft: 9% chance of hit. 10 commoners can hit once per round. Time to cover distance: 3 rounds. Kills per pillbox: 1.5

At range 80 to 0ft: 30% chance to hit. 10 commoners can hit 3 times per round. Time to cover distance: just over one round, call it three as they keep going past and reach 80ft the other direction. Kills per pillbox: 4.5 kills.

Thats a total of six kills per pillbox until the Goblins are back out of close range. And assuming they don't have any way to take cover on the approach.

My math was off for common commonners, I was expecting some form of town guard or militia who should have a slightly better chance at hitting the gobbos

It's definitely not earthshaking, but it is very good for a 3rd level ritual that doesn't require concentration.

Furthermore, the wizard is not completely tied down while within the sphere. They can pick up a light crossbow themselves (they probably have a better DEX modifier than commoners at the very least, and they can add their proficiency bonus), and they can still cast spells targeting something inside the sphere. OR your familiar can deliver touch spells up to 100 feet

This means they can't fireball enemies outside, but they can still cast a buff on an ally within the sphere, and have that ally walk out. Fly is a good spell for this; the target doesn't have to worry about you getting hit by a stray arrow and losing concentration.

Or you could cast enhance ability Bull's Strength on one or two of those Engineers who are loading the catapult. Fire rate increase right there.

and ofcourse this. the fact that it's not concentration makes this a great spell. and the fact that you can't cast out.

As for Sigreid: the spell specifically mentions that stuff form outside doesn't get in, but stuff from inside can get out. that's the real beauty of the spell. This makes it harder to resupply, but that can be done by taking enough ammo with you and to resupply at redomification times (as in the point where a new Leomund's Lasciviciously Penetrating Pillbox is cast).

[Tanarii]

My math was off for common commonners, I was expecting some form of town guard or militia who should have a slightly better chance at hitting the gobbos

Assume they are proficient with a Dex bonus of +2: +4 vs AC 15, 2 hits to kill.

Range 320-80: 3 rounds with 16% hit rate: 10 commoners get 4.5 hits.
Range 80-80: 3 rounds with 40% hit rate: 10 commoners get 12 hits.

Total kills per pillbox: 8.25 goblins

[Giant2005]

Assume they are proficient with a Dex bonus of +2: +4 vs AC 15, 2 hits to kill.

Range 320-80: 3 rounds with 16% hit rate: 10 commoners get 4.5 hits.
Range 80-80: 3 rounds with 40% hit rate: 10 commoners get 12 hits.

Total kills per pillbox: 8.25 goblins

I assume you have the goblins taking the dash action each round? If so they should stop taking the dash action and start taking the dodge action once they get in short range.

[TheFlyingCleric]

Assume they are proficient with a Dex bonus of +2: +4 vs AC 15, 2 hits to kill.

Range 320-80: 3 rounds with 16% hit rate: 10 commoners get 4.5 hits.
Range 80-80: 3 rounds with 40% hit rate: 10 commoners get 12 hits.

Total kills per pillbox: 8.25 goblins

That seems a little low... +4 bonus vs 15 AC, they only need to roll an 11 to hit (50%). So why is it 40% hit rate? Unless it's taking into account low cover, but they are assumed to be dashing that distance.
My calculations result in 22.5 hits. 11.25 goblins.
This doesn't take into account crits

As for using the dodge action instead of dashing, they'll take half as many hits (25% vs 50%) but spend twice as long in the close range. No net benefit, except a reduced crit chance perhaps?


How about getting a first level cleric or two in the sphere? That would improve the hit chance (for blessed targets) to 62.5% / 39.1%.

This sphere is starting to get crowded...

[Democratus]

Keep in mind that it is not a sphere. It is a dome.

There is nothing to prevent things from digging into the area of the Hut from below.

[Tanarii]

That seems a little low... +4 bonus vs 15 AC, they only need to roll an 11 to hit (50%). So why is it 40% hit rate?

Because I used anydice and +2 to hit instead of +4 to hit, and my brain shut down and didn't think about the results.

Off the top of my head, that should change the results to 25% hit / 7.5 hits, 50% / 15 hits, for a total of 22.5 hits or 11.25 kills.

We've achieved greater than 1 kill / commoner for 6 rounds of fire!

[coredump]

That makes it a perimeter increase. (snipped results of being 300' out.)

At range 320ft to 81ft: 9% chance of hit. 10 commoners can hit once per round. Time to cover distance: 3 rounds. Kills per pillbox: 1.5

At range 80 to 0ft: 30% chance to hit. 10 commoners can hit 3 times per round. Time to cover distance: just over one round, call it three as they keep going past and reach 80ft the other direction. Kills per pillbox: 4.5 kills.
.

You guys are completely missing the problem created by the size of the 'perimeter'.

Lets say the town is only 200 yards in diameter (freaking tiny for a town, maybe a decent sized village)
Now you want to increase the 'perimeter' by putting the huts 300' out, giving you a radius of 600'. Which gives a circumference of almost 3800'.
So you will need at least 12 huts, or they will be able to just run between them and never get touched.
You will need at least *48* huts or they will just run between them and always be in long range.
It just isn't feasible, and this is for a village.... if a village has access to 12-24 spell casters, just kill the goblins.

Lets say you keep them closer, and only put the huts out 80'.
That is still a radius of 380', a circumference of 2400'
That still requires at least 8 huts to get any shots at them, or 30 huts to get any shots without disadvantage.


A better use would be to place a few huts *in* the town to be used as a base. Troops could sally out to engage small bands, and run back to safety when in danger of being overrun. Sight lines aren't as great, but it is better then just watching them running past laughing at you.