Yet Another "Stupid Stuff In RAW" Thread

[Dan_Hemmens]

Something I've just noticed as part of the "metagaming" debate:

"Identifying a creature" requires a check with DC = 10 + Creature's HD.

Humanoids are covered by Knowledge: Local.

So to identify an ordinary human requires a Knowledge: Local check with a DC = 11.

The rules also state that you can't make a Skill Check with a DC > 10 unless you have ranks in the skill.

Which means *technically*, by RAW, it is impossible to identify a human unless you have at least one rank in Knowledge: Local (and even then, you could well fail).

I just have this image of characters wandering around cities looking at shopkeepers and saying "what are those... things!"

[Seffbasilisk]

Well you can't identify them expressly as human, but you can assume they are. You don't really know all the broad ranges of human, and seeing a half-elf, might think he's human.

[Dan_Hemmens]

Well you can't identify them expressly as human, but you can assume they are. You don't really know all the broad ranges of human, and seeing a half-elf, might think he's human.

Similarly, though, you can't tell a Dwarf from a human.

[FireSpark]

Something I've just noticed as part of the "metagaming" debate:

"Identifying a creature" requires a check with DC = 10 + Creature's HD.

Humanoids are covered by Knowledge: Local.

So to identify an ordinary human requires a Knowledge: Local check with a DC = 11.

The rules also state that you can't make a Skill Check with a DC > 10 unless you have ranks in the skill.

Which means *technically*, by RAW, it is impossible to identify a human unless you have at least one rank in Knowledge: Local (and even then, you could well fail).

I just have this image of characters wandering around cities looking at shopkeepers and saying "what are those... things!"

Cute.

Though I had always assumed that anything you already are, you can already identify. Thus a human knows a human when sees one (at least supeficially), but maybe an elf has trouble teling humans and half-elves apart ("They all look pretty much alike anyway, don't they?").

[Fixer]

I believe the knowledge skill is more about being certain that something is true as opposed to just assuming.

PC w/ no knowledge skills: The guy looks human.
PC w/ Knowledge (local) skill: Er, no, he doesn't seem right. I don't know what's wrong with him, though.
PC w/ Spot: Hey, wait, I think that's a creature in disguise!
PC w/ Spellcraft: Indeed, a Disguise Self ability, I am sure.
PC w/ Knowledge (the planes) skill: I believe he is a creature from another plane.
PC w/ no knowledge skills: Oh. He still looks human.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

This is why I appreciate the specific knowledge tables they've begun to provide with new Monsters. They often include stuff at a lower DC than 10 + HD. On occasion, you see suggestions for Knowledge categories outside the standard for that creature type.

[PinkysBrain]

Dunno how you DM, but I don't require checks for things covered by background knowledge.

[Rad]

Try to have a Cat get a mouse... then look for a cleric for the cat!

[Dan_Hemmens]

Dunno how you DM, but I don't require checks for things covered by background knowledge.

Neither do I, but by RAW you should. It's part of that whole "lots of RAW is stupid if you stick by it dogmatically" vibe.

[nerulean]

I would consider most people in an average setting to have a +10 "knowing what the heck a human looks like" bonus to their roll, not to mention imposing a -10 "humans are as common as muck" penalty to the DC.

[brian c]

I would consider most people in an average setting to have a +10 "knowing what the heck a human looks like" bonus to their roll, not to mention imposing a -10 "humans are as common as muck" penalty to the DC.

so with a +10 modifier against DC 1, you'd have to roll a... well, you wouldn't even have to.

seriously though, I agree with Fixer. the Knowledge checks are to be certain, you can guess all you want about what anything is without having an ranks in Knowledge

[nerulean]

so with a +10 modifier against DC 1, you'd have to roll a... well, you wouldn't even have to.

Exactly. Is there a random element involved when you try to identify something as human?

[brian c]

Exactly. Is there a random element involved when you try to identify something as human?

what you're thinking of though is only a trivial case. in the real world, pretty much anything that looks like a human is a human. even the most human-like robots are easily distinguishable.

what you have to remember is that in D&D, there are humanoid races that are not humans. Maybe there's a muscular elf, a half-elf, a tall skinny dwarf, a slender, good-looking half-orc... if you aren't paying much attention, all of those combinations could be mistaken for humans (though I realize those aren't exactly common). Alternatively, a big ugly human might look like a half-orc, a skinny pointy-eared human looks like an elf or half-elf, and a short stocky human (or literally, a dwarf) could be mistaken for a dwarf (race). The knowledge check is for those cases which are actually tricky, not just walking down the street saying "that's a human! that's another human! that's a (rolls natural 1)... I have no idea"

[Soniku]

It's a bit silly but it can work too. Clearly in most cases someone who has lived around the races all their lives would be able to tell who's a human and who's a dwarf and so on easily, very much the same way as they have language: common and things like that by default.

However, if you had a character from a backwards all-human hamlet in the middle of nowhere who had never seen another race what would he think?

"Ok, so this person has pointy ears and this one is short with a beard. They -look- pretty human though"

Unless they had knowledge they would most likely see halflings and gnomes as children at first glance and so on.

PCs are rarely so uneducated, but technically that could happen if an NPC grew up with only his own race without being taught of other races.

[Fixer]

"Did you see two halflings? They would only seem as children to your eyes."

An example of knowledge: local to notice humanoid subtype differences.

[Tyger]

And while I am loathe to suggest a RL comparison...


Three humans on the streets of New York are examined by two different people, one (Bob) with the appropriate Knoweldge skill, one (John) without.

Bob: Hey John, did you see that gorgeous Korean woman? Dang!
John: Huh? Which one was the Korean? All three were Chinese.
Bob: *shakes head*

Basic stuff can be presumed (i.e. "Gosh, they sure look human to me"), but knowing the 'normal' phsyical characteristics, what foods a particular culture eats, their social practices, their religion and political system... that's what the knowledge is for.

[nerulean]

what you have to remember is that in D&D, there are humanoid races that are not humans. Maybe there's a muscular elf, a half-elf, a tall skinny dwarf, a slender, good-looking half-orc... if you aren't paying much attention, all of those combinations could be mistaken for humans (though I realize those aren't exactly common). Alternatively, a big ugly human might look like a half-orc, a skinny pointy-eared human looks like an elf or half-elf, and a short stocky human (or literally, a dwarf) could be mistaken for a dwarf (race). The knowledge check is for those cases which are actually tricky, not just walking down the street saying "that's a human! that's another human! that's a (rolls natural 1)... I have no idea"

Well, at that point a "this is an unusual individual" bonus to the DC comes in to offset the "humans are as common as muck" penalty. Might even reduce or negate the "knowing what the heck humans look like" bonus to the roll, since that no longer fully applies.

This isn't really an argument that's worth having. All I'm saying is that there are perfectly sufficient modifiers to any situation that a DM can justify asking for a roll or not as he so chooses.

[Matthew]

Well, given that that rule is only 'in general' and that a Circumstance Modifier for actually being a Humanoid and living amongst them is probably forthcoming, I doubt this is going to be a problem, even by RAW.

Now, if on the other hand, you were a Human who had never seen another Humanoid your inability to identify them would probably be happily modelled by this rule (maybe even applying circumstance modifiers to prevent intelligent isolates from figuring it out).

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Now, if on the other hand, you were a Human who had never seen another Humanoid your inability to identify them would probably be happily modelled by this rule (maybe even applying circumstance modifiers to prevent intelligent isolates from figuring it out).

Not really necessary. Since the DC in that case is over 10, the only folks that could make the check are folks with ranks in Knowledge (local), in which case they'll have enough "book smarts" at least to figure it out. They've read/heard enough about elves that they should recognize one right away, even if it's their first time seeing one.

Of course what's tricky is identifying that 20th level elf mage with his 20 HD (DC 30) .

[Matthew]

Heh, good point. I think it's only Racial Hit Dice that you are supposed to take into account, but I think it could be read either way.

[Fixer]

Identifying as an elf would be just an 11.
Identifying as a 20th level elf wizard would be a 30. I guess.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Heh, good point. I think it's only Racial Hit Dice that you are supposed to take into account, but I think it could be read either way.

Well, elves and most humanoids don't have racial HD. They only have Class HD. So maybe it's DC 10 rather than 11 by that reckoning.

However, as this is a "Stupid Stuff in RAW" thread, I will point out the RAW don't specify racial HD only.

"In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD."

20th level elf mage has 20 HD.

[Wraithy]

I thought class levels were governed by different checks, eg: DC 11 local to tell if he's an elf, DC 30 arcana to tell about his powers

[Dan_Hemmens]

"Did you see two halflings? They would only seem as children to your eyes."

An example of knowledge: local to notice humanoid subtype differences.

"Did you see two halflings? They would only seem..."
"Die, Orc scum!"

An example of Eomer failing to use Knowledge: Local to notice humanoid subtype differences.

[Starsinger]

"Did you see two halflings? They would only seem..."
"Die, Orc scum!"

An example of Eomer failing to use Knowledge: Local to notice humanoid subtype differences.

That's what Eomer gets for being racist and attacking them off the bat just because he thinks they are Orcs.

"Wow... She certainly looks human, but I've never seen such pretty golden eyes before." (Aasimar)

"Huh.. you are definately human... what's that smell? Is that.. brimstone?" (tiefling)

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I thought class levels were governed by different checks, eg: DC 11 local to tell if he's an elf, DC 30 arcana to tell about his powers

There's no provision in the core rules to tell a person's class just by looking at them and making a knowledge check.

Might have grounds for the appropriate check if they actually use a sufficiently unique class ability, though.