Dealing with an unruly player

[Salacious Pete]

So I carfely craft a scenario around a message being delivered to the town's innkeeper from a goblin liason. In the message is the adventure hook and all sorts of important clues and hints, not to mention the goblin being an NPC named "The Mighty Zod" (yes, as in "Kneel before Zod!") who is meant to be a recurring villian in this new campaign. When Zod comes in the door, one of my PC's immediately charges him and critically cut him in twain. The rest of the group are my old players and they realized that a goblin just walking into the bar wasn't illeagal, but this new guy instantly thought only to kill. Later one of the PC's found out it was just to score up some "easy xp." What the Hell is that? So any way through the rest of the session this guy plays his dwarf barbarian timidly, only entering into combats and dancing around threatened areas, untill finally my DM mind can't take it. So the next time he barges into a room their are two ogres ready and waiting, the guy took one of them down but the other one killed him, the rest of the party was banged up (lv 2 before the fight, just in case someone was going to call PC protective services on me for pitting two ogres against lv one PC's). And we tell him he can reroll if he likes, so he does, and guess what, he is another dwarf barbarian. I need some help here, he keeps getting the rest of the party into tough situations, and he isn't getting the idea to roleplay stuff, and to top it off he plays a dwarf barbarian like a halfling rouge (engaging monsters that are fighting other PC's and doing so as to not incure an attack of opportunity). Any suggestions?

[cupkeyk]

Depends on what campaign setting you are in. A goblin walking into a tavern in Eberron is very normal. The same goblin in the Nelanther Isles or Skullport in FR would also be normal. That goblin wouldn't be there in Silverymoon, also in FR. Maybe in Thay, but then he'd be a slave. Yes, in Zhentil Keep. No, in Waterdeep.

Quite simply, how was the build-up? A goblin walking into a tavern, covered in a cloak, disguised as a halfling would probably fly under the radar long enough to survive to relay his message. Otherwise, if he comes in proclaiming, "Kneel before Zod" he should have the whole bar on his head.

Attacking a goblin on sight is not an uncalled for reaction for your run of the mill PC, you know.

[Piccamo]

Avoiding AoOs is just good common sense. So is gaining flanking bonuses and taking down opponents one at a time. Players, and by association characters, use tactics. What's wrong with a seasoned barbarian not killing himself to kill an opponent?

You indicate a goblin entering the inn is not illegal. This suggests that goblinoids are not automatically considered evil in your world. This is fine, but was the player aware of this? If he comes from a background where green-skins are generally evil, this would be the expected result. You need to inform people of changes from the norm, just like you would with house-rules.

As an aside, if goblinoids are legal that would mean he had just murdered someone who, as far as the law was concerned, had done nothing wrong. Even if he had done something wrong, I doubt they would have enjoyed him killing a criminal outright. If there are not in-game consequences for his actions, like being in trouble with the law, he is not going to realize he has done something wrong. Murder is a crime in most civilized places; reflect that in-game. Hell, that could have been good roleplaying. In his barbaric tribe, murder of goblinoids is expected, if not congratulated.

Everyone automatically knowing the customs and laws of new lands is poor roleplaying. Adventurers are generally foreigners and do not take the time to learn what must be done. Treat them that way.

[Sir_Hobbit]

Well, you could bang it into him like a temperemental Dwarven smith by putting him into situations to teach him to use the right behavior, or die (trial by death). Or, you could talk him into the D&D spirit, telling him that you don't slaughter newly introduced NPCs and have a talk on what's the right class for him (you'll probably going to want to do this one first).

[Jasdoif]

Umm...what's wrong with a dwarven barbarian helping allies while not provoking attacks of opportunity?

Aside from that, it sounds like the player is playing "break down the door style", while the rest of your group is not. Have a nice talk with said player about how the style of game played at your table, ask him/her to be a little calmer with this new character.


And really, don't try to kill your PCs because you're getting frustrated. That's simply bad taste.

[Zeful]

The combat thing I won't get into, except to say it's not a big deal.

Now as for the lack of roleplaying, the best way to deal with it is 'everything the player says, the characer says' and have pcs like the blacksmith react oddly to the concept of exp, hd, level and d6s.

For the excessive violence against a plot device, bring in some in-game consequences, maybe have him arrested (but it's late for that the character's dead) or make something that you can use. But be consistent in you actions. If you aren't the players are going to be mad at you.

[Pendragonx]

And really, don't try to kill your PCs because you're getting frustrated. That's simply bad taste.

At the same time, don't coddle them either.. if they're making dumb decisions, make sure they're aware of the consequences of said actions.

As an aside: There was an interesting article in Dragon magazine where Gary Gygax spoke about that exact thing with a player who wouldn't 'play nice' with the group. If I recall correctly, he devised a situation where said player got himself killed, and Gary calmly advised him to 'be more careful' with his characters. It was a good read.

[Corolinth]

Killing the goblin because you're a dwarven barbarian who hates goblins = good
Killing the goblin because you want to score the party some easy experience = bad

I can't remember what the exact wording was in the original post, but I think he told us which scenario we were looking at. Stop me if I'm thinking of some other thread.

Dancing around threatened radii would be smart playing for a fighter, after all the point of threatened zones is to keep someone from just running straight in like a dumbass. However, that sort of tiptoeing around the battlefield runs counter to the dwarven barbarian who leaps up to smash goblins. So which is he roleplaying? The reckless barbarian who smashes first and asks questions later, or the careful fighter who takes in the whole situation before committing to action?

So far my sympathies lie with the DM. Killing him off was jumping the gun a bit, though.

Then he rolls up the exact same character. This is starting to sound like the guy who's invited to play because he's somebody's friend and the group doesn't want him to feel left out.

The way you deal with this guy is to take the other players (everyone except him) aside first, and explain to them the danger he's putting them in. He's putting the group into tough situations, but that's their problem, not yours. You killed this guy. The whole party now knows that you will kill characters. Let them know that there'll be a TPK with their names on it if they can't make him smarten up. Let them know that he can get them killed. Once that's done with, they'll take him aside and have a little pow-wow.

[Fixer]

Have him drawn and quartered. The player, I mean.

Ok, perhaps nothing that drastic.

If the situation about the goblin would have happened with me, I'd have made a decision to make him a nilbog on the spot, just to make the PC think twice about attacking in civilized places.

At the very least any combatants at the bar who was lawful aligned would have drawn weapons and tried to take the attacker into custody until they verified he wasn't just a crazy murderer. If there are no laws in town against goblins being in town, the guy just committed aggravated assault (at best). Town laws are great at keeping overzealous PCs in line.

[Tallis]

Nothing wrong with a PC fighting smart. I would expect that from an experienced warrior.
As far as attacking the goblin: did you let the player know ahead of time that goblins are accepted in this area? In most campaigns they wouldn't be, thus killing him would be acceptable. Concievably a foreign barbarian would not know this. What is normal in his homeland? Did he react appropriately for his culture? Did anyone try to stop him or call the watch? What were the locals reactions to him murdering someone in front of a room full of witnesses? Let him know that if he does something illegal in front of witnesses there will be consequences. Act as if this were real life and have people react accordingly.
Also, if he only got to 2nd level with his first dwarf barbarian I'm not surprised he would want to roll up another. He still hasn't had much of a chance to play the concept. I don't really see the problem with that.
The best solution for a PC that does dumb stuff is usually to just have the world react appropriately to it. He murders someone in public? Now the watch is looking to arrest him. With that many witnesses it'll probably be a death sentence. Either he'll figure out how to escape and wise up or he'll learn for his next character.

[valadil]

Yeah, just have in game repercussions. I mean, you might want to warn him first. Point out that murdering a bar patron in cold blood is probably against the law here, and if he does it anyway then set the law on him. Ain't nothing wrong with that.

[Wooter]

Let's see, he mudered someone because they walked into a bar, making no hostile actions, but was green.

Have him tried for murder, and sentenced to life imprisonment.

Have him roll up a new character, and inform him that he shouldn't do stupid things like that in the future.

Wait, what alignment was he? Bump him down to evil, if he wasn't already.

[Emperor Tippy]

So I carfely craft a scenario around a message being delivered to the town's innkeeper from a goblin liason. In the message is the adventure hook and all sorts of important clues and hints, not to mention the goblin being an NPC named "The Mighty Zod" (yes, as in "Kneel before Zod!") who is meant to be a recurring villian in this new campaign. When Zod comes in the door,

Here's your first mistake. NEVER let your players near anything you want to survive (or would mess up your plans if it died) unless you have numerous contingencies planed or are willing to fudge stats/rolls.

Why was the "Mighty Zod" delivering messages? He should have had a henchie doing that.

one of my PC's immediately charges him and critically cut him in twain. The rest of the group are my old players and they realized that a goblin just walking into the bar wasn't illeagal, but this new guy instantly thought only to kill.

Have the bartneder shout, I'm calling the guard and people run screaming. If the PC's act fast they can get away, if not they face the guards.

Later one of the PC's found out it was just to score up some "easy xp." What the Hell is that?

That doesn't matter at all. Don't worry about it. So long as the action is IC justifiable, don't complain.

So any way through the rest of the session this guy plays his dwarf barbarian timidly, only entering into combats and dancing around threatened areas, untill finally my DM mind can't take it.

So, he is a smart player. Again, don't get anonyed that he is playing hsi character appropriately.

So the next time he barges into a room their are two ogres ready and waiting, the guy took one of them down but the other one killed him, the rest of the party was banged up (lv 2 before the fight, just in case someone was going to call PC protective services on me for pitting two ogres against lv one PC's).

Here is where you should be layed over the players knee and spanked with your DMG.

You are sending your party against a very difficult encounter (CR 5 against a party of 4 ECL 2's)... for no other reason than you are pissed at a player for being effective in combat.

The DM shoudl never be agaisnt the players, he should be a neutral force. You run the world, with certain expectatiosn from the players, and should make the players face the realistic consequences of thei actions, but you should never activily play agaisnt your party as the DM.

NPC's can work against the party, but make sure its incharacter for those NPC's.

And we tell him he can reroll if he likes, so he does, and guess what, he is another dwarf barbarian. I need some help here, he keeps getting the rest of the party into tough situations, and he isn't getting the idea to roleplay stuff, and to top it off he plays a dwarf barbarian like a halfling rouge (engaging monsters that are fighting other PC's and doing so as to not incure an attack of opportunity). Any suggestions?

Yes, Don't DM until you learn how. The players 1 (minor) mistake was IC justifiable, he is a new player, and you are at fault for putting the BBEG in that situation.

You made numerous mistakes, showed an attitude that in a DM is frankly frightening, and then have the audacity to blame it on the new player who apparently is doing pretty much exactly what he should.

[Seffbasilisk]

I agree with Tippy, even if not so maliciously....I like my books and wouldn't want to hurt the covers by beating a bad DM with them. Use a stick, and don't abide by the rule of thumb.

If he likes kick in the door, then have some parts tailored to kick in the door, and others to caution. Let them work it out IC, and don't friggin' Encounter-bomb them. It's a slippery slope of badness. What's next? "The level 6 Sorcerer ruined my goblin archer difficult encounter with his fireball! I'm going to throw then Titans at them! He won't out-fireball them!"

[Renx]

Simple. Don't give him exp for wanton destruction. If he starts to base it on some meant-to-break-campaigns-and/or-make-DMs-weep "My character is on a quest to kill all greenskins and people who look funny", just go "uh-huh, can I see your character sheet for a bit? Thanks *RRRRIIIP*. New character, better idea, if you don't mind."

[Salacious Pete]

Thanks for the info everyone, as for those who would have me beaten with a dungeon masters guide, you have an extra special day. Anyhow let me catch you up on the adventures of enraged dwarf barbarian. He had two 18's with his next dwarfie, and no I didn't see him roll, but I had an experianced player help him with his remake. I worked him back into the adventure, and this time he was acting fine, until he decided to attack his friend's elf sorc for fun. He killed him and was dancing around the corpse when the rest of the party hacked him to bits, I had a tear in my eye watching my little pc's grow up so fast and he hasn't been back to game since. Huzzah!

[Dervag]

At the same time, don't coddle them either.. if they're making dumb decisions, make sure they're aware of the consequences of said actions.

As an aside: There was an interesting article in Dragon magazine where Gary Gygax spoke about that exact thing with a player who wouldn't 'play nice' with the group. If I recall correctly, he devised a situation where said player got himself killed, and Gary calmly advised him to 'be more careful' with his characters. It was a good read.

Do you remember which article, or which issue?

Thanks for the info everyone, as for those who would have me beaten with a dungeon masters guide, you have an extra special day. Anyhow let me catch you up on the adventures of enraged dwarf barbarian. He had two 18's with his next dwarfie, and no I didn't see him roll, but I had an experianced player help him with his remake. I worked him back into the adventure, and this time he was acting fine, until he decided to attack his friend's elf sorc for fun. He killed him and was dancing around the corpse when the rest of the party hacked him to bits, I had a tear in my eye watching my little pc's grow up so fast and he hasn't been back to game since. Huzzah!

I think the problem is that the original post was slightly ambiguous as to whether this was a reasonable DM who had a problem with an unreasonable player, or an unreasonable DM who had a problem with a semi-reasonable player. Of the two actions you objected to, one of them was in fact fairly reasonable (being cautious in combat), while the other could reasonably have been the product of a failure to communicate (the guy playing a dwarf thinking that a goblin walking into a bar should be killed, without knowing what the DM had in mind).

Looking at what he did next, what with the attacking the sorcerer, it is obvious that you were in fact a reasonable person who had a problem with an unreasonable player. This guy is pretty clearly a jerk.

[Matthew]

That's one great image. It sounds like something out of KoDT. I can just imagine the other players turning on the celebrating Dwarf, dancing on the corpse of their recently deceased Elf Sorcerer companion.

[Tallis]

Thanks for the info everyone, as for those who would have me beaten with a dungeon masters guide, you have an extra special day. Anyhow let me catch you up on the adventures of enraged dwarf barbarian. He had two 18's with his next dwarfie, and no I didn't see him roll, but I had an experianced player help him with his remake. I worked him back into the adventure, and this time he was acting fine, until he decided to attack his friend's elf sorc for fun. He killed him and was dancing around the corpse when the rest of the party hacked him to bits, I had a tear in my eye watching my little pc's grow up so fast and he hasn't been back to game since. Huzzah!

Okay, now that was stupid on his part, with predictable results. Players will often solve problems like that themselves as happened here.
Congratulations. On with the game!

[Dairun Cates]

I think with the combat style, he's more talking about something similar in one of our campaigns where after an Iajutsu master in our party died once, he decided he would no longer be a frontline melee fighter with that character. This is ridiculous. Iajutsu masters are made to go to the frontline and cut people up. It's similar with the Barbarian. Unless you have levels in Rogue as well, there is no reason for a barbarian to be skirting the edges of battle waiting for the other players to take damage before charging in. This sounds like what he's doing. As a barbarian, you are tactically dedicated to taking damage for the party. If he's failing to do this, he's failing to do his job out of fear of getting his character killed. Of course you want to avoid AoO and use flanking, but if you're doing so by making the wizard take the brunt of the damage, you're failing at your job.

[Blackbrrd]

The comment about "doing it for xp" was a dead giveaway about the player not understanding what the game is about.

Playing a coward barbarian on the other hand is an interesting character concept. I would expect some IC comments from the other players though, like "where were you?!", "why weren't you helping Sir Nicholas?".

Personally I like the combination of spring attack and 40' move which a barbarian gives. At the same time they are hard to flank, so moving through the enemy lines and setting up flanking is a nice tactic ;) Doing it with a two-weapon fighting rogue is great since a two-weapon-rogue only wants to move 5' and take a full attack...

[Dairun Cates]

Still, I think if you set yourself up to be the meatshield and don't alert the players otherwise, you're not doing your job. I'm playing a pirate in exalted soon, but the other players know I'm not going to be very physically oriented. So, they shouldn't expect a lot in the combat department. Otherwise, you'd assume a pirate would be pretty nice in a combat situation and far less intelligent and manipulative than my character is going to be.