Chaotic Neutral "Organised" Religion

[Eno Remnant]

Hey Playground, Eno here with a bit of a tricky puzzle to solve.

So my D&D 3.5e group is going to take our first crack at 5e in the near future. Should be fun, we've by-and-large looked it over and spotted what's better, what's worse, how to break the system (I kid), etc.

While looking through the Player's Handbook, I came across Wild Magic and decided on the spot that it would be the most hilarious--and flavourful--thing I've ever played in D&D. The rest of the group agreed that it'd be cool, so I got to work on a Wild Magic Sorcerer.

The problem came in with her background. I hadn't noticed it until... maybe five minutes ago? But this character is something of a prophecied 'Chosen One' of a small religious order worshipping the aspect of Chaos itself. Which I just realised is something of a non-starter.

Which brings me to the question: what does a Chaotic Neutral religious order look like? I looked for threads on the internet, I skimmed through GitP (including the Chaotic Neutral handbook, which isn't finished enough to help me with this character), I even gave it some serious consideration and came up short.

Chaotic Good priests organise for the Greater Good. Chaotic Evil priests organise to spread anarchy and further their own goals.

So what draws Chaotic Neutral priests into an organisation, and how does that organisation function? The best I've gotten so far is that every priest is equal, with perhaps a Father that has the respect of the other priests. I haven't really got any concepts of worship, activities, anything, beyond a vague idea that everyone just does their own thing.

Normally I'd be happy with the few conclusions I've come up with, but it just really nags at me because I feel like someone here might have a better insight into the concept. So I'm asking you guys and girls and non-binary-gendered members of the Playground, what's your take on a Chaotic Neutral "organised" religion?

[Puke]

Your character is the EXACT type of character able to be a prophet.

On my first campaign on 5e, one of my player did the same character than you (except it was chaotic EVIL). He has all the kit to use people to accomplish things and to build a religious order (in fact, he was working for Cthulhu... for the chaos itself).

A chaotic neutral order would do everything to advance itself, doing good, or evil, but always on purpose to do something bigger. The order would be very diversified.

I would come with a wide variety of NPCs, each one able to fulfill several roles (since its not a lawful religion, you are more adaptative).

The good thing is... you have litteraly no limit. Everyone will try to do his best to advance the religion, even if he has to break some rules... and... hemhem... even if the rules comes from your religion...

[Yora]

Think of them not so much as organized but as cooperating for a common goal. They recognize that they share the same grievances about the world they live in and that they are in agreement about the biggest social institutions and traditions they want to see gone. Everyone works towards that goal autonomously, but they share their knowledge so they can pool their resources when someone finds a great opportunity to advance their cause and they don't waste their time with things another group is already taking care of.

Ideologically you could have cults of libertarians who all want to be rid of their government and be left alone to do what theywant.
Or alternatively you could have an anarchist group that claims to work for freedom for all and the common good, but who are too radical and extreme in their measures to count as good as far as everyone else is concerned.
A third option would be something inspired by a group from Planescape (forgot the name) based on the idea of "effortless action" from east-Asian philosophy. Don't question your motives or overthink your actions, just go with whatever seems intuitively right in the moment. The mind is easily confused, but the soul knows how to best act in harmony with nature. This could work quite well for a wild mage. Don't force the magic to behave exactly as you want it, when the universe tries to shape the spell into a different form just let it happen. The result will be better in the long term.

[Eno Remnant]

I'm liking what I'm hearing guys, and no fear Yora, my Sorcerer shall indeed be embracing the chaos. However, you've both been talking about a more radical idea of religion than I had intended.

The order in my mind is a more "go with the flow" kind of group. They worship the Chaos, but they know that not everyone appreciates it, and they're content to leave well enough alone because everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Y'know, a very freedom-oriented outlook.

Of course, that doesn't stop them from promoting their religion to anyone who'll give them the time of day, but most of their initiates are simply those who are seeking to embrace Chaos as their deity - thus why it's such a small order.

Keep the good stuff coming, people. Every nuance and point of view raised just enhances the topic.

[TheYell]

The universe is fractured into an infinite series of parallel worlds called the prism. no sentient can comprehend the prism. within it all choices for good or bad are made and unmade. all systems of good or evil are false and based on a limited understanding of the chaos of the universe. the only true path is to expand your own capabilities so you have more choices in your present fiction. become stronger faster wiser richer more powerful knowing that elsewhere you chose to be weaker slower foolish poorer and limited or are dead or were never born. grok chaos that is the infinite sum of finite orders throughout the prism.

[AceOfFools]

Picture a hippie comune. A bunch of men and women who go out into the wilderness to live free of societies rules, each according to their own conscience.

They don't really harm anyone, and even try to avoid interacting with people outside their little group, for better or ill. The poverty of others is not their concern, nor do they covet anything they dint have.

They have regular gatherings, but no formal service. They join hands and sing, or sit in silence to open themselves to the cosmos; they need no god to tell them what to do. They have no hierarchies or formal leaders, no titles or laws, no private property or borders. Just people bound together by friendship, love, and a desire to be at peace with the universe.

Sounds like a CN religous community to me.

[erikun]

In general, I have two methods of looking at an alignment like Chaotic Neutral.

One method is that the characters are CN just because it benefits themselves. They aren't in it to help others (CG), but they aren't willing to go out and harm others just for their benefit (CE). However, if it's not going to cause any immediate or obvious harm, then why not get the benefit? In this case, they could be letting out the mad god because it will be too insane to harm them and/or too far away to impact them directly. Why not be the ones to reap a benefit for doing so? Their understanding might be due to ignorance or misunderstanding, or just not caring that some outer plane where angels who can auto-resurrect would be impacted.

The other method is the CN character just revels in Chaos, willing to spread it by any means necessary. This means doing lots of really spontaneous nice things in Evil societies and really jerk things in Good societies. Basically, it's the insane character who is trying to "adjust" the world into a CN state. If this is your cult, then they might not be the most sensible or stable people, and could easily end up impacting your society as much as an opponent's. And if your society crumbles... well, that's just the way CN pans out in the end.

[Max_Killjoy]

For fiction/gaming inspiration purposes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discordianism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelema
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(cosmogony)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus


Lawful neutral and chaotic neutral should not be focused on some sort of "balance" between good and evil. They should be about their defining principle taken as absolutely good and right. Neither sees their guiding principle as counter to moral choices, they see it as the moral choice.

(This is part of the problem with the two-axis grid alignment system... people focused on "law" and "chaos" should not perceive or comprehend their guiding principle as an alternative to "good" or "evil", they should see it as what is good, as what defines moral vs immoral thought and action.)

To the LN, order is the greatest good -- everything in its place, a place for everything, perfect harmony through knowing one's role and excelling in it.

To the CN, freedom is the greatest good -- every being decides its own place, no one is able to place limits on anyone else, the greater the choice space the better. CN leans good if it includes some version of "your freedom to swing your fist ends before my nose", and leans evil if it includes the principle "if you don't like it, try to stop me".

[Joe the Rat]

There are a lot of ways to consider chaos. here's what I've got.
The Anarchist's way is about a lack of rules and rulers - freedom to act, and to self govern. This is a Brotherhood (or Fellowship) of equals. The "Leaders" are chosen by "signs," or are simply the biggest demagogues. The freedom of self-expression might draw them to your character, but not so much the wild surge.
The Gambler's way is about chance and luck. You could literally gamble your way into power. Or capture the right sign, or win a coin toss. Things happen, by chance, and you try to bend it so that what happens works out better for you. This one can get interesting in a Duology - Fortune (chance, luck) and Fate (certainty, destiny) not as rivals, but as partners. Fate says one of two things can happen, Fortune says which does. Your Tides of Chaos feature is very much in line with these interests. Gambling that a random magical effect will be beneficial (and that you will be able to later choose between results) fits the ethos.
The Cosmologists way is the principle of pure random and everchanging. Destruction opens the door for new creation. Mutation (and experimentation) can lead to new forms of life. Getting rid of the old is to make way for the new, and you should add to both. Leadership can be organized, cannot be stagnant. No high priest serves for long, but may serve again. You could almost treat this as a college. You are creating new, unpredictable magical effects, which makes new, interesting changes. You are transformation embodied. Stock up on transmutation and prismatic spells.
The Madman's way is the chaotic stupid, lolrandom, change-your-mind-on-a-whim way. What you believe changes, and must change, but not from knowing, because what is will be different tomorrow in unpredictable ways... even if you have to do it yourself. Don't make sense of the world, make the world not make sense. The leadership is the overseers, the guardians of madness. The temple is an asylum, not to cure, but to shelter the mad, so that they can go into the world as prophets or fools or criminals or murderhobos. Your character leaves a trail of unpredictable results behind you. Madness as Magic Made into Man. You're the chosen one because of the alliteration.
The Nihilist's Way Another one from Planescape: The Bleak Cabal. Everything that happens is meaningless. Nothing matters in the long run. It's all chance, and it will all fall apart... so why not be nice to one another while waiting for the pointless end of it? If nothing matters, you should do what you want, if you can get over the soul-sucking void of the pointlessness and futility of your actions. Or you may go along accepting that, but it wouldn't hurt to be nice once in a while. Ennui, and Charity.
Or you could flip the attitude around. I give you the words of our prophet, Marcus Cole:

I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, 'wouldn't it be much worse if life *were* fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them?' So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe.

Honestly, this approach is hardest to align with a Chosen One. An exemplar of pointlessness still has a point.

[Geddy2112]

Just because the religion is chaotic does not instantly disqualify it from having an organized hierarchy, edicts, temples, what have you. Certainly chaotic religions are going to have less of these or are less likely to have these than a lawful one, but they can still have these and be chaotic.

In pathfinder canon, the 2 major chaotic neutral religions/deities are incredibly organized, with temples and hierarchies.
Calistria is the goddess of trickery, lust, and revenge. Most of her temples are more or less brothels, and a good number of her followers are directly or indirectly involved in the sex trade. Many of her temples are large luxurious salons, that attract backroom dealing politicians, spies, and those associated with the thieves guild. Although each individual is their for their own reasons, they do associate frequently with many others. Although the hierarchy is casual, those who emobody an aspect of the goddess well are valued equally or greater than those with strong magic.

Gorum is the god of battle, and the metal weapons/armor used in battle. His temples are half mercenary stronghold half foundry. Most of his followers are mercenaries, and while they all fight for individual reasons, they have no problem fighting together, and unlike most religons they might not need a common cause, or even a cause. The act of fighting is sacred, the money is second. The hierarchy is notable but simple-the best fighter is on top.

Think of them not so much as organized but as cooperating for a common goal. They recognize that they share the same grievances about the world they live in and that they are in agreement about the biggest social institutions and traditions they want to see gone. Everyone works towards that goal autonomously, but they share their knowledge so they can pool their resources when someone finds a great opportunity to advance their cause and they don't waste their time with things another group is already taking care of.

This- motivations and actions within the faith are based on the individual, but like minded individuals can work together.

[Segev]

A CN group forms around shared goals, as others have mentioned. They want freedom, or pleasure, or wealth, or to build something. CN individuals CAN voluntarily organize, with leadership and cooperation and the like. It usually takes strong charisma to hold them into that structure, because it's easy to have disgruntlement over methods lead to abandoning the project (or trying to fork it off as their own), but the strength of a CN "organization" is that every individual is there because they share a goal, and they will try their own means to achieve it.

Well-run CN organizations delegate. A lot. L* organizations will delegate responsibilities; C* ones (and this goes double for CN) will delegate authority. The leader is there to deconflict more than to dictate. He may or may not provide the vision, but his job is to be the guy the individualists turn to when they realize they're working to cross-purposes (or just stepping on each others' toes).

A CN organized religion will have its hierarchy focused on being experts in the teachings and beliefs, and on helping resolve logical conflicts. While Chaos is oft portrayed as "mad," it really needn't be. It can be entirely consistent with itself without being a clockwork machine. The "hierarchy" would be relatively loose, as well. It is unlikely to have a rigid division of who reports to who; a most, the ranks would be collective. A bishop outranks a vicar, but vicars may not be beholden to any particular bishop. It's just that, should vicars find themselves in disagreement, a bishop can resolve it by virtue of his higher authority. A bishop may also have authority over a particular aspect of the religion's projects or goals, and delegate tasks based on that to vicars or even lay followers.

But when they delegate, they give goals. Not methods. Because CN epitomizes goal-orientation without care for method. (Don't read too much ruthlessness into this; I am not saying "do anything to achieve the goal, no matter how vile." I am saying that there will not be any rigid approved methods. The closest they'll come is "and I found this works well" sort of guidelines.) It will remain up to the individuals doing it to plan out how to achieve their goals. They might get advice, but if they disregard it but still get the job done, it is unlikely the CN organization will care. (Provided they didn't violate other goals in the process. And this is where the CN might differentiate from CE; CE will tend to encourage success over all, and punish the 'failure' of the losing branch of its own organization if one exploits or interferes with the other. CN will tend to punish those who caused the failure because they acted stupidly and got in the way rather than turning to somebody to help deconflict their means and goals.)

[Belac93]

Picture a hippie comune. A bunch of men and women who go out into the wilderness to live free of societies rules, each according to their own conscience.

They don't really harm anyone, and even try to avoid interacting with people outside their little group, for better or ill. The poverty of others is not their concern, nor do they covet anything they dint have.

They have regular gatherings, but no formal service. They join hands and sing, or sit in silence to open themselves to the cosmos; they need no god to tell them what to do. They have no hierarchies or formal leaders, no titles or laws, no private property or borders. Just people bound together by friendship, love, and a desire to be at peace with the universe.

Sounds like a CN religous community to me.

Having grow up among hippies, I can truthfully say that only the mothers are CN. Everyone else is TN or NG.

I would suggest thinking of it as a free form religion. Like, no actual church, or rules, just a concept that everyone lives by. If you have a copy of the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, look at the entry for the Mask.

[N810]

+Banjo

[AceOfFools]

Having grow up among hippies, I can truthfully say that only the mothers are CN. Everyone else is TN or NG.

I would suggest thinking of it as a free form religion. Like, no actual church, or rules, just a concept that everyone lives by. If you have a copy of the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, look at the entry for the Mask.

That sounds interesting; I have had only tangential contact with the real people who inspired the fictional trope I was drawing from.

Can you please elaborate on "the mothers"?

[Belac93]

Can you please elaborate on "the mothers"?

Spoiler: Reply

Show

Well, since there were so many hippies, most of my friends were them, or had them as parents. So, I met their mothers a lot, and out of the people I met, they were extremely intense, and very hard to actually tell what they wanted. So, it was impossible to figure out if she wanted you to go outside, clean the house, take care of the chickens, and so on, because she would ask you to do all those things, and then get mad at you for doing them in the 'wrong' order, and they changed their minds the next day. So, you and your friend get yelled at for cleaning the house before doing dishes, and then the next day you get yelled at for doing dishes before cleaning the house.

They also could not make plans to save their lives. Any plans they did make were badly thought out, and they barely made any. Whenever they swore, they used very odd sayings, such as; "oh my big headed sun godess!" (yes, I actually heard that one).

So, yeah, CG/CN. The dads were extremely chill though. More like TN.

The kids were just weird. But fun.

A question; would a god of chaos even want a cult/faith?

[wumpus]

I'd go for a casino. Presumably there would be the ideological desire to hold off the inevitable NE takeover attempts. Not sure if the CE ones would be so obvious (every succubus would probably want to try while taking breaks from seducing paladins). It would at least give them a reason to construct a building.

You could try seeing how far you could take it. It might be that each table is funded by a separate priest (not necessarily a cleric) and may or may not be CN (referring to marks and failing to heavily gamble his own funds are obvious signs of a lack of faith, excessive rakes might not be).

[dps]

I can't go into any detail here because of forum rules, but perhaps you should read up on the anarchist movements of the 1930s, particularly the anarchist groups that fought in the Spanish Civil War.

[Lord Raziere]

there is such a thing as multiple denominations, conflicting interpretations, schisms, quibbling over small details of doctrine leading to entire groups of people splitting off into factions that can't stop arguing over things that most people would find unimportant and not worth arguing about....

here is how I picture a CN faith forming:
a bunch of CN worshippers of a god ask for any way he wants to worshipped, thinking that since this god is individual that he would people to obey his personal preference for how he wants to be worshipped as a form of respect like any other individual. The god in response writes a blatantly contradictory, nonsensical book as the basis for the religion a prank just to see if anyone will actually follow the silly bizarre commandments he puts within.

He sends it down, the faith takes a look at it and doesn't question it at all. After all, its HIS preference for how he wants to be worshipped, and if thats how he wants it done, not doing so would be the suppression of that gods individuality, therefore AGAINST CN nature. So they follow the nonsensical rules. This religion gains a following for its support of freedom of expression, and eventually once it gets big enough, people start pointing out the blatant contradictions and nonsense in it and start arguing over the different interpretations of the text, wondering which commandments are true commandments, and which ones are just false commandments to test their ability to tell what orders not to follow.

So schisms occur, with a wide range of interpretations over the Book of Holy Chaos, arguing endlessly and people splitting off to go do their own temple/church and interpretation of the text, from schisms as big as "everything in the book is true/everything in the book is a lie" to little things like "We must eat bananas twice a week/We must eat bananas while standing one foot only on Tuesdays". They spread all across the world, seemingly every single denomination and temple having a different interpretation of the same text, and every member within that denomination having their own opinion on that interpretation.

All of them of course claim to belief in freedom of expression and individuality. All of them will at times claim that something is taking their freedoms away and do some impromptu crusade to stop them no matter how erroneous or insane that crusade is. Or how right and just. They will of course claim that other denominations are heresy when they think that they are engaging that goes against their god's edicts, freedom or individuality and try to kill them. There is no telling when, or whether its always the right or wrong thing to do.

while the god who originally wrote it is just sitting up there, with popcorn, eternally eating it while watching the dominoes fall for all eternity.

[goto124]

I suspect the above happens regardless of alignment. Okay, maybe gods of other alignments don't intentionally write a self-contradictory book, and exact details can differ, but the general reactions of mortals are likely similar.

Will stop here before sliding into real-world religion.

[Eno Remnant]

Will stop here before sliding into real-world religion.

That rule has always irked me. I understand why it's enforced, but it is entirely possible to have a reasonable, relevant discussion involving real-world religion. Especially in parallel to fantasy religions.

My ire aside, I'm enjoying reading all these different views and ideas. Thank you to everyone who's contributed thus far, it's helping me flesh out my religion for the upcoming campaign, and giving me ideas to add to my own campaign world.

[Lord Raziere]

I suspect the above happens regardless of alignment. Okay, maybe gods of other alignments don't intentionally write a self-contradictory book, and exact details can differ, but the general reactions of mortals are likely similar.

Will stop here before sliding into real-world religion.

Nope. Other alignment religions don't have this problem.

LG: consistent and everyone prefers to work together as much as possible
NG: Why care about this petty stuff when good needs to be done? really accepting and open-minded.
CG: They just split up the the god into different aspects of the same god and acknowledge they are all doing his work as apart of freedom
LN: Doctrine stays the same no matter what. The only thing that changes is the wording so that the intended meaning is clearer. There are no schisms. The people who disagree are excommunicated and politely ignored.
TN: No one cares enough to argue, and just let each other believe what they want
LE: the official interpretation of the text is enforced in a fascist, oppressive manner. All heresy is stamped out
NE: the whole book is nothing but an excuse to be a selfish opportunistic jerk and not care anyone else, and everyone in the religion knows it including the god. All conflicts are about who should get power.
CE: at this point, your a bunch of crazy cultists sacrificing people, drinking blood, yelling "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!", summoning demons just to unleash hell, and using a leader selection method straight out of "might makes right" social darwinistic philosophy. doctrine is not really a concern.

[Clistenes]

Well, since the group worships Chaos itself, and not just a Chaotic deity, they are basically building their religion by themselves, aren't they?

That could would probably be made of people who have visions, revelations...etc., many of them fueled by "sacred" herbs or mental disorders. They listen to each other's visions, reinforce and influence each other's beliefs, and follow the general direction marked by the most inspiring revelation and/or the most charismatic leader.

The "best" most attractive prophecies and revelations and the most charismatic leaders become more and more influential and shape the group general beliefs more and more. I see it as a sort of Darwinian social selection evolutionary process: You wake up one day, and tell your last pipe dream to the rest of the group; if it isn't impressive enough, it is quickly forgotten; but if it's memorable enough, it is quickly added to the corpus.

Paradoxical and contradictory beliefs and rules coexist without effort because Chaos. Sometimes the egos of some notable members clash too much or two visions are too directly opposed, sparking internals fights and splits from the main group, but as the darwinist selection process goes on and the group gathers more and more inspiring prophecies and revelations and the top leadership becomes more charismatic, more new members are drawn into the sect.

I would expect some charismatic leaders with strong personalities and massive egos to exploit the group for their own pleasure and to get narcissistic reinforcement, most of the other members being (figuratively) charmed by them.

[2D8HP]

Maybe their "Holy symbol"s" are dice, which they use to make decisions randomly?

[goto124]

Maybe their "Holy symbol"s" are dice, which they use to make decisions randomly?

Are you sure you mean PCs? Sounds more like the players themselves.

[Asmodean_]

A company engaging in charging small fees for entrance to a neutral ground where mutually beneficial exchanges can occur, and calling it a "religion" as a tax dodge.

[ShaneMRoth]

I recommend basing the religion very loosely on Burning Man...

[ReaderAt2046]

Here's what comes into my head for a CN religion to preach:

"Every man and woman should be free to do as they wish. But 'should' is not 'is'. There are many things in the world that limit people's freedoms, both actively and passively. And so we band together, each giving up a little of our freedom in order to preserve and nurture the rest of it. We form communities and trade in order that each might be free to work at that which they enjoy, instead of every man having to scrabble for food and shelter. We teach our young trades, that they might have the skills to do what they wish. We prepare to defend ourselves from tyrants and slavers. We work together to break down every barrier, whether of ignorance or poverty or social taboo, that denies freedom to do as one sees fit."

[kieza]

If you've played Dragon Age: Inquisition, think something along the lines of the Friends of Red Jenny.

--It's just a bunch of people with common interests/philosophies/agendas. Small groups may get together and worship, but they don't have any desire for temples, cathedrals, or festivals: they just get together in someone's house.
--There's no formal or central leadership, just a bunch of competent/trusted/respected people who are de facto in charge, and they get picked by "acclamation of the masses," not any repeatable process.
--If a member wants something done (wounds healed, crops cursed, towns rid of undead) they just ask their fellow members, who pass the word until it reaches someone who can and will do it.
--If you're not trusted by your fellow-worshipers, they just disinvite you from their gatherings and don't pass on your requests, and you wither away in isolation.