OOTS #261 - The Discussion Thread

[Tom_Violence]

There is no such thing as authority.

Oh right, of course. Silly me. Get on well with your parents, do you? :P

Just kidding. I disagree, of course. Authority exists. For example, 'he is an authority on the works of Oscar Wilde'. :P And in the legal sense too, otherwise you'd have to throw out laws as well, and then where would we be?

[Winter_Wolf]

Aiya, that poor guard. He never stood a chance, he didn't even have a name. At least with a name he might have lasted another panel before getting skewered. I don't know why the strip made me think of _Austin Powers: Goldmember_, but there you have it.

[Ilaun_Undil]

Honestly I think that the gaurd deserved to die. Really that sort of stupidity. Discussing with a prisoner in Solitary confinement, giving him ideas... BTW Don't rangers have spells? or is this the Variant Ranger from CW?

[Nasrudith]

Curse you Rich for your hillarious comics that leave disturbing mental images!

[Caledonian]

It's possible it was determined by gender, but I think it's interesting that the cells are also split up by the characters' traits along the GNE axis. Consider:

Durkon is Lawful Good. Roy is Neutral Good. Elan is Chaotic Good. They share a cell.

Haley is Chaotic Neutral. Vaarsuvius is Lawful Neutral.

Belkar is either Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil. He's in his own cell.

As for where he hid the ring: it's clearly not on any of his fingers, and not on any of his toes, so where else could... oh. Oh my.

Clearly that was a wise expenditure of a feat slot.

[Taelas]

Honestly I think that the gaurd deserved to die. Really that sort of stupidity. Discussing with a prisoner in Solitary confinement, giving him ideas... BTW Don't rangers have spells? or is this the Variant Ranger from CW?

Belkar would have spells, but he doesn't have sufficient enough Wisdom to memorize any.

[Ragnarok]

Rangers don't memorize spells, they're one of those "granted by a greater power" type. But since he has a wisdom score worthy of lemmingdom, he gets no spells.

EDIT: spelling

[Winged One]

I think people are missing a rather large point here. It is the right of every prisoner of war to attempt to escape. It is also the right of every prisoner to be treated humanely and fairly (ie. not locked up in solitary confinement in a dark room with no light).

Remind me to quote you on that if my sorceress in your game ever gets thrown in jail. ;D

Oh, and I cackled maniacally when Belkar escaped. I also anticipated the last panel from the second-to-last(although I didn't think of the "well, more dead humans, anyway" part).

[Ilaun_Undil]

Rangers don't memorize spells, they're one of those "granted by a greater power" type. But since he has a wisdom score worthy of lemmingdom, he gets no spells.

EDIT: spelling

I'm just saying it would be irresponsible for Miko to take the chance that Belkar does have the wisdom to use spells. He may have just enough wisdom and never used it. It is never specifically addressed. we aonly know that he doesn't have enough Wisdom cast certain cure spells.

[Nodles]

Hmmm, lead box? VERY interesting! OotS and this forum is really giving me great ideas ;D

GREAT strip. Now im anxious to see the murderous rampage Belkar will fly into.

[Lightman]

Honestly I think that the gaurd deserved to die. Really that sort of stupidity. Discussing with a prisoner in Solitary confinement, giving him ideas... BTW Don't rangers have spells? or is this the Variant Ranger from CW?

As said in an earlier strip, his wisdom is too low.

It's possible it was determined by gender, but I think it's interesting that the cells are also split up by the characters' traits along the GNE axis. Consider:

Durkon is Lawful Good. Roy is Neutral Good. Elan is Chaotic Good. They share a cell.

Haley is Chaotic Neutral. Vaarsuvius is Lawful Neutral.

Belkar is either Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil. He's in his own cell.

As for where he hid the ring: it's clearly not on any of his fingers, and not on any of his toes, so where else could... oh. Oh my.

Clearly that was a wise expenditure of a feat slot.

Roy said that he was the same alignment as Miko, making him lawful. Durkon worships Thor, a (by Deities and Demigods interpitation) chaotic good god, so he can't be lawful. It's only said that Elan can't be lawful, he's not neccerality chaotic.

V probably is neutral, as she has no respect for the physics of the universe or Miko. Haley is probaly chaotic, but could also be good.

Belkar said himself he was chaotic evil

[Single Shot Zombie]

It's possible it was determined by gender, but I think it's interesting that the cells are also split up by the characters' traits along the GNE axis. Consider:

Durkon is Lawful Good. Roy is Neutral Good. Elan is Chaotic Good. They share a cell.

Haley is Chaotic Neutral. Vaarsuvius is Lawful Neutral.

Belkar is either Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil. He's in his own cell.

Ummm, Roy is LG. He says that in this episode, saying to Elan that he shares the same alignment with Miko:
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/Gian...tscript?SK=231

And in the strip before that, Belkar admits that he is Chaotic: http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/Gian...tscript?SK=230.

More likely, they did the split by gender, decided to stick Vaarsuvius with Haley as the other cell was getting too crowded, and left the insane, Chaotic Evil Belkar in solitary confinement.

As for where he hid the ring: it's clearly not on any of his fingers, and not on any of his toes, so where else could... oh. Oh my.

Clearly that was a wise expenditure of a feat slot.

Ummm, he could have simply been slipping the ring onto his fingers as he talked to the guard. Probably started doing it once the guard said that his cell wasn't in the antimagic block.

[mec]

Two words, lead tube

C'mon, you know he would!

So Belkar decided it was time to get the lead out!

http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_b...sages/862.html

[Emericol]

Belker was being edged out by Thog for best character, then he, quite literally, jumped back to the top!

Belker for president. There would be nothing left when he left office, but it would be one heck of a term.

[Gralamin]

I'm just saying it would be irresponsible for Miko to take the chance that Belkar does have the wisdom to use spells. He may have just enough wisdom and never used it. It is never specifically addressed. we aonly know that he doesn't have enough Wisdom cast certain cure spells.

May i suggest rereading comic #213
Last panel
I think she kinda excepts little from him.

[SirGalrim]

Is it only me that didn't find the last strip of 2005 fun.. at all?... ??? :-X

But I'm sure I'll see some 100 great ones next year. :)

[Gralamin]

Belker was being edged out by Thog for best character, then he, quite literally, jumped back to the top!

Belker for president. There would be nothing left when he left office, but it would be one heck of a term.

Hmmm let me think:

FBI:"President Belker? We are here to inform you of all of are weapons."
B:"So what type of weapons does this country have?"
FBI:"We Have...."
Hours later...
B: "ARM ALL THE NUCLEAR WARHEADS! LETS ANNIHLATE THIS PLANET! I'll be on the International space station."

[xyzchyx]

Dear xyzchyx ...
Belkar is a chaotic evil character...do you think he gives a damn how justice is worked in civilized countries...THATS WHY WE ALL LOVE BELKAR :D:D:D
GO BELKAR!!! 8) 8)

First of all, I don't dislike Belkar. Not at all.

The poster to which I responded said that Belkar was "justified" in killing the guard.

I merely pointed out that in fact he wasn't. And since Belkar doesn't really care about justice anyways (why would he? he's chaotic), the fact that he's not justified in having done what he did is quite thoroughly irrellevant. But that doesn't mean that he's actually justified in doing what he did, though.

I did _NOT_ try to say that it was in any way out of character for Belkar to do these things, which I am inferring from the evident tone of your response is how you took what I said. In fact, I believe this strip is utterly classic Belkar, and thoroughly enjoyable.

[aaronbourque]

Perhaps they aren't, but I'd say it's the right of every prisoner held unjustly to escape their captors. The alternative is to say that we should acknolwedge the validity of injustice.

Wrong. It is the right of every prisoner to get their fair day in court, to prove the injustice of their imprisonment.

But here's the thing: THE ORDER OF THE STICK ARE NOT UNJUSTLY IMPRISONED!!! They are all accessories to the destruction of the Redmountain Gate, a crime against creation (which goes to the refutation of your next point). All of them, except for Durkon, are also charged with resisting arrest to answer for that crime. Durkon could be considered charged with aiding and abetting fugitives.

They'd say that being some godforsaken theocracy gives them the right
to kidnap foreign nationals for any stupid reason they wish to contrive. That is, apparently "Lord" Shojo is the direct representative of some "god." ::)

No, that's a false assumption. In D&D, Good, Evil, Law/Order, and Chaos are all forces of nature, but even so, gods actually exist in D&D in particular, and in particular the world of the Order of the Stick. While it's possible that Shojo doesn't deserve to be called a Lord, there's no evidence in the comic for that. The Giant has said that Lord Shojo is not a secular Lord over land and servants, his authority is of some cosmic factor we don't know. Any individual with cosmic authority, no matter how tenuous, would only be doing his job in trying to get to the bottom of the destruction of something that unbalances reality.

In fact, I find it almost unbelievable that only Lord Shojo is interested in the fate of Redmountain and its gate. More realistically, several high powered mages would be looking into it, the higher ups of churches would be looking into it, and on and on.

There is no such thing as authority.

You do realize this makes you insane, yes? And completely shoots all of your arguments in the foot.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; if their's no authority, than your arguments have no weight.

[Duskrider_Moogle]

Guys, Belkar was justified in escaping from prison because it was hilarious; if he had taken any less awesome action it wouldn't be as entertaining, and how just would THAT be to us??

[ByzCath]

But here's the thing: THE ORDER OF THE STICK ARE NOT UNJUSTLY IMPRISONED!!! They are all accessories to the destruction of the Redmountain Gate, a crime against creation (which goes to the refutation of your next point).

But who has jurisdiction over crimes against creation?

I do not think this court does. If it does then it should have worked though the law enforcement agencies of the land that the OoTS was in at the them that Miko unlawfully apprehended them.

[jmucchiello]

But who has jurisdiction over crimes against creation?

If it does then it should have worked though the law enforcement agencies of the land that the OoTS was in at the them that Miko unlawfully apprehended them.

I would think that if the court has jurisdiction over CREATION then all of creation is within its jurisdiction. Countries are ephemeral. Creation is all. If you accept that Lord Shojo can try cases involving crime against creation, then Shojo's agents can hunt for those accused criminals anywhere in creation regardless of legal secular status.

As for whether this screws OOTS, that comes too close to predicting future strips and I think we should refrain from that line of discussion outside of a spoiler thread.

[Rawhide]

Remind me to quote you on that if my sorceress in your game ever gets thrown in jail. ;D

Don't forget that its also the right of the detaining power to prevent such an escape ;).

[Eva_of_Sirrion]

The lead sheet to block detect evils...

The lead box to hold his ring of jumping...

With all this exposure to lead, no wonder Belkar's wisdom is so low. ;)

[Mordeus_Dire]

It makes you wonder...

Why is Belkar, the chaotic evil psychopath (whom we all love of cause) hanging around with the lame do-gooder Order of the Stick.
There's a perfectly nasty Linear Guild whom he'd feel right at home with...

Or is he simply TOO evil for them. :)
I must admit, Thog isn't focused enough and for all his schemeing, Nale is more of a "Big Meanie" rather than actively evil.

[aaronbourque]

But who has jurisdiction over crimes against creation?

I do not think this court does. If it does then it should have worked though the law enforcement agencies of the land that the OoTS was in at the them that Miko unlawfully apprehended them.

Whether the court of Shojo has jurisdiction or not is speculation, and that's spoilers, so I'm not gonna do that. But Miko never unlawfully apprehended the Order, she attacked them believing them to be a bunch of evil reality-mucking individuals, and then afterwards was escorting them to trial until they resisted arrest. And she attacked them and then began escorting them in an area unclaimed by any crown or country, so there's no jurisdictional improprieties. (The Giant has said this, that the area near Woody Forest--or was it Wooden Forest?--is in an area beyond any country's borders. I can't find the post right now, though, and I'm tired. It's in there somewhere).

When they resisted arrest, they may have been in an area under someone else's law, but considering Miko et. al. were involved in saving a king, that king probably looked the other way when Miko chained them.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; or, at least, when she explained that they had resisted arrest.

[aaronbourque]

Guys, Belkar was justified in escaping from prison because it was hilarious; if he had taken any less awesome action it wouldn't be as entertaining, and how just would THAT be to us??

He was in character escaping from prison, but that doesn't justify it.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

[Techonce]

I had meant to say that OotS may feel they are justified in trying to escape and to do so wby whatever means the feel acceptable.

At the same time, the guards feel the prosioners are justly heald and will do what is necessary to keep the prisioners secure.

Now, since we are outside observers, it depends on if we feel the captors have the right to detain the prisioners.

As for crimes against creation... I'd like to see the rules lawyers punch holes in that set of laws.

[Eva_of_Sirrion]

I had meant to say that OotS may feel they are justified in trying to escape and to do so wby whatever means the feel acceptable.

At the same time, the guards feel the prosioners are justly heald and will do what is necessary to keep the prisioners secure.

Now, since we are outside observers, it depends on if we feel the captors have the right to detain the prisioners.

As for crimes against creation... I'd like to see the rules lawyers punch holes in that set of laws.

It means somebody's gonna be cashing in on a lot of XP. ;D ;)

[rosebud]

It's nice to see Belkar out -- he was the one problem point. Whatever his alignment is, he implies that detect evil on him would not be a good thing. So, having him out can help avoid that fate. (The restraining order was only against Miko, so presumably others could use it.) Belkar's plans in #206 are clearly a wash, so that just leaves leaving.

As to the others, it's irrelevant. There's been no communication and magic is blocked. Clearly, Belkar is acting alone at this point. (Of course, it does cause a mess since the authorities already went to extreme measures to apprehend everyone. It also makes cooperation rather difficult.)

As cute as the guard might be, he's clearly foolish (Belkar was probably just doing some plot exposition in hopes of gaining more XP?) and fools don't fare well in these situations.

As to killing him, Belkar needed to incapacitate the guard in some manner -- otherwise an alarm would have been raised. Roy's method (#163) is by knocking the guard unconscious. But even Roy killed an agent of the "law" (#164) when the situation demanded it. As to Belkar, he obviously likes violence, but there was a practical matter to consider -- Belkar was unarmed. So, he needed to grab the weapon and then incapacitate the guard before an alarm was raised. Given the weapon -- a short sword -- and Belkar's wounded state, he picked the familiar route.