Necromantic Archetypes for Non-Wizard casters

[Giegue]

As the title says. I felt that 5e currently lacks necromantic options for classes outside the Wizard and Cleric and I wanted to remedy that. Thus, I made this collection of necromantic support form Bards and Warlocks, however it's probably far too broken/OP. I am terribad at 5e balance being so new to the system, so I'd appreciate any and all support in helping to bring this more in-line with other 5e options. If you have any suggestions for balancing these out or general thoughts on them please post them here! The archetypes are below:

Bardic College: The College of the Macabre

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

[Gastronomie]

I read only the bard (might come back to warlock later), and got the impression that most of it is pretty balanced, save just the level 6 ability, which I believe is pretty damn overpowered.

•The undead this spell creates add your bard level to their hit point maximum.
•The undead this spell creates add your proficiency bonus to their attack rolls.
•After being created, each undead you create with this spell receives a bardic inspiration die. As a reaction, when an attack roll is made against them they may expend the die and add its roll to their AC after the attack roll is made but before it is declared a hit or miss. They may also expend the die to add the result of its roll to an attack or damage roll on their turn.

This is obviously modeled after the Wizard Necromancer, but what is different is that while the Necromancer adds his proficiency bonus to damage rolls, this adds it to its attack rolls.

This is a HUGE difference. And this makes the necromancer Bard really, really, overpowered. This is obviously because of bounded accuracy issues.

I would change "attack rolls" in the second ability to "damage rolls", just like normal necromancers.

Also, for the third ability: So, you expend 1 Bardic Inspiration die (which re-charges on a short rest)... to give a Bardic Inspiration die to 4+ minions. I don't think that's a really good idea, unless you restrict its uses a lot. At least, because bounded accuracy is a thing, it shouldn't be able to add the dice to its attack rolls. Perhaps restrict it to just the defensive side - "increasing its own AC" and "rolling a saving throw" or something. And I think even that's perhaps too strong. Two thoughts:

-If you were to add this ability, the "add to hit point maximum" part could be deleted.
-Keeping track of the separate BIs for the dozens of undead minions is a great pain. How about "spend a BI to affect all the zombies at once during that turn"?

Finally, I think you should add "you can cast Animate Dead/Create Undead only X times per day" (X = your CHA mod). This is because otherwise it allows you to swarm the field with undead that are strictly better than those summoned by wizards.

My idea is that while necromancer bards are a cool concept, they shouldn't become "absolutely" superior to the original necromancer. They should have their pros and cons.

So, my proposal is:
You can use this ability a number of times equal to your CHA modifier. Recharges with a long rest.
•The undead this spell creates add your proficiency bonus to their damage rolls.
•As a reaction, when an attack roll is made against an undead you control, you may expend a Bardic Inspriation die and add its roll to the AC of all undead you control, after the attack roll is made but before it is declared a hit or miss. Also, as a reaction, when an undead you control makes a saving throw, you may expend a Bardic Inspiration die and add its roll to the result of all saving throws the undead you control make. These effects last till the start of your next turn.

Just a proposal. But I think right now it's way too strong and outclasses the original necromancer.

Which is a pretty bad thing, given the original necromancer is already too strong...

EDIT: Maybe, at level 6 or something, an ability to cast an illusion over the undead that makes them look like normal people outside combat could be a pretty interesting fluff ability. It also makes this much easier to use in RP situations (and bards are almost always in RP situations). How does this sound?

EDIT #2: Made a lot of changes concerning BI. It seems you're replying right now, but...

[Giegue]

I want the class to be -equal- to a wizard in terms of minion-mastery, not inferior nor superior, so thanks for the feedback! That being said, I changed the ability to basically be a carbon copy of the wizard feature. Not creative, I know, but it's the only way I could think of to make the class on-par with a wizard's level of undead mastery without being too powerful. So yeah.

[Zehridamus]

The bard is impressive, really. I've been trying to find an archetype that fits the 3.5 Dirgesinger prestige class, and even took a shot at making one for myself (which failed). Awesome work! I'll look at the warlock pact here in a while.

[Giegue]

The bard seems to be getting way more attention and rightfully so, it's an awesome idea in fluff and something I've wanted for a while (a cha-based minion-master and a bard who's not totally lame fluff-wise). That being said, the 14th level ability being a straight-up rip off of the Necromancer command undead seemed too derivative for me, espcially considering the 6th level feature is so much like the Wizard's undead thralls. Thus, I've kept the 14th level feature as an undead dominate effect, but one that works VERY differently than the wizards and has a more "bard" feel to it. However, it may be too busted/broken. So I want thoughts on it! All and all I think the bard is comming along nicely and may have to get a nicer-looking doc.

I'm also working on an undead minion-focused sorcerer origin that I'll post later, so stay tuned for more necromancy!

[Revlid]

My concern about the College of the Macabre is that all three of its powers consume Bardic Inspiration dice, so at most you can use each of them - in total - five times per short rest, with no actual uses of Bardic Inspiration in between. I'd suggest toning down one of its powers and removing the Bardic Inspiration cost, just to make it more consistently usable.

More specific concerns:

Dreadful Dirge seems like a worse version of Cutting Words from the College of Lore. I can use Cutting Words as a Reaction upon seeing an attack, while this consumes my Action and might not even be relevant. The only compensation is the ability to maybe stop them from taking a bonus action or reaction themselves - which again, may not be relevant. Especially in an Inspiration-heavy College like this, I'd basically never use it.

Waltz Macabre seems kind of weak. If I want to play a NecroBard at the moment I just pick up Animate Dead and Create Undead using two of my Magical Secrets slots. This doesn't take up space in my Spells Known slots, but it still costs Spell Slots to cast and takes a Bardic Inspiration die - so it's functionally a much less flexible version of the College of Lore's Additional Magical Secrets, which also costs Bardic Inspiration dice in exchange for a buff to the zombies.

Rule the Still Heart is weirdly better (more targets, longer lasting, dominate beast is way better than "friendly and obeys your commands") in exchange for a Bardic Inspiration die, where the other traits aren't.


I don't know what I'd specifically suggest for Dreadful Dirge, but Rule the Still Heart could be toned down in exchange for keying off Countercharm, instead. Friendly undead receive a buff, hostile undead must save or be charmed for that turn, and you can spend spell slots to "acquire" unintelligent charmed undead.

Waltz Macabre seems like it could be simplified, at the very least - just make it Additional Magical Secrets for Animate Dead and Create Undead, plus you can spend a Bardic Inspiration die to permanently buff your undead when you create them. Or maybe instead of that, you can spend a Bardic Inspiration die and grant that die (with a duration of one turn) to every undead you control within a short range. Something like that.

[Llama513]

The undeath domain is interesting, I like tomb-tainted soul, however undead no longer gain use their charisma as their con in 5e, as such it feels weird to do that with this archetype, what I would instead make it is that you gain the undead fortitude trait or something like that.

I really like what you did with the control undead, and restore undead, I think what you could do is introduce that at 5th level you gain permanent control of undead affected by control undead, following the cr chart used for destroy undead.

Necropotance and Potent Spellcasting are fine

As for Lichdom, I would not give them the legendary resistances or actions, as there is no reason a player should get those, however, as the allowing of the ritual is up to the DM, I could see making those available to the player at DM discretion, however I would try to work out a way to make the 17th level feature better without the lichdom ritual, as if the DM does not allow the ritual it feels really weak, but then again I have never been great about judging the power level of capstone abilities.

For your College of Macrabe,
What I would do is make it as a reaction to when you or an ally reduces a creature to 0 hit points or less, you expend a bardic inspiration, rolling the dice you cause a number of creatures equal to the number rolled on the dice to within 30 feet or 60 feet of you, those that fail are frightened for a minute and must use their turn to move as far away from you as possible. the frightened affect lasts for 1 minute, the target repeats the save at the end of their turn if they can not see you, or they take damage.
Remove the usable a certain number of times as it expends your bardic inspiration, its uses per rest is taken care of.

Make Vile dirge usable once per long rest

As for Rule the Still Heart make it not use your bardic inspiration, make it once per long rest, and have the control not require your concentration

[Giegue]

Thanks for the input, I do appreciate it. However, I think 1/long rest is too few times for the vile dirge feature. It's basically no stronger than the wizard undead thralls, and that's always on. I'd not be appose to making it once per short or long rest, but one per long rest is a bit too infrequent, to be honest. I do like the cleric advice though, and will apply it. However, if you think the vile dirge is too broken as it stands, I can easily strip away the movement bonuses so it's literally a worse version of the wizard undead thralls feature. Would that be more balanced?

As for the lichdom stuff, if it's not good enough without the ritual as it is, maybe have it upgrade your undead fortitude gained at level 1 to Greater Undead Fortitude, along with the bonuses it currently hands out? Also, I updated the cleric domain with your suggestions and some of your spells. Also, I changed around the 8th level feature to be divine strike, but through an undead minion instead of the cleric themselves, since the bonus cantrip has been swapped to your own animate limb.


EDIT: added some changes to the bard as well. Used your suggestion for the inspiration power. I still have Vile dirge being infinent use, but removed the movement bonus and made it so you can either buff your own undead *or* an ally's, and not your entire party's undead hoard. I think that makes it more balanced since now it's basicly no better or worse than the wizard 6th level feature, but I'd still like opinions on it. Also updated it's added spell list with spells from your document.

Thanks again for all the help, these are all really great ideas!

[Llama513]

Thanks for the input, I do appreciate it. However, I think 1/long rest is too few times for the vile dirge feature. It's basically no stronger than the wizard undead thralls, and that's always on. I'd not be appose to making it once per short or long rest, but one per long rest is a bit too infrequent, to be honest. I do like the cleric advice though, and will apply it. However, if you think the vile dirge is too broken as it stands, I can easily strip away the movement bonuses so it's literally a worse version of the wizard undead thralls feature. Would that be more balanced?

As for the lichdom stuff, if it's not good enough without the ritual as it is, maybe have it upgrade your undead fortitude gained at level 1 to Greater Undead Fortitude, along with the bonuses it currently hands out? Also, I updated the cleric domain with your suggestions and some of your spells. Also, I changed around the 8th level feature to be divine strike, but through an undead minion instead of the cleric themselves, since the bonus cantrip has been swapped to your own animate limb.

I think once per short rest for vile dirge will be fine I think that the greater undead fortitude for non ritual lichdom will work nicely

[Giegue]

Thanks. Updated the bard a bit, so I'd appreciate another glance at it if/when you have the time. More importantly, though, I made/fixed up another archetype..this time a Warlock archetype based around undead control. I have 0 idea how balanced it is though, which is why so would like you to look at it if/when you have the time please. It can be found here:

Warlock Patron: Undead Lord

ALSO the undeath domain doc broke for some reason. I made a backup copy, which can be found here:

Undeath Domain

Note it's undergone a few changes, which I would appreciate some comments on! Thanks again for all the help!

[Steampunkette]

The effects are neat... but for the Warlock I suggest the following change:

Make Undead Controller burn through the Undead, rather than create infinite control.

Using it by the book, I could spend my 4 5th level slots to create (and instantly gain permanent control over) 20 zombies or skeletons. Then take a short rest to gain 20 more. And another short rest. And another. Perfect and permanent control over a small army of shambling dead is -pretty- cool, all things considered, but it might be a bit much. Even if it takes me 5-10 hours to get them all to where we're going by using actions and bonus actions to move them one at a time.

Instead, I'd suggest allowing them to take control of creatures they create under the pre-determined rules (To preserve action-economy) but have their direct control "Burn Out" the necromantic power animating the entity and kill it (or them) after 1 hour.

It puts an absolute limit on how many can be controlled, while still allowing for a large number, and avoids the whole "Indefinitely creating evil in the world" issue.

... I'd also suggest allowing them to treat Undead Creatures as Corpses for the purposes of spellcasting. Maneuver some zombies into position and BOOM! Corpse Explosion to destroy the struts supporting the bridge!

[Giegue]

You read Undead Controller wrong, BTW. The control limit does not apply to each casting. It's universal, so at 20th level you are only getting 40 HD worth of undead no matter how many times you cast. I'm sorry if I did not make that clear but the limit applies universally, not to each use of the feature. This puts it on par with the wizard for the ammount of perma-Undead, which is the point. This is meant to be the equal if the wizard, not the inferior, and making the Need not permanent automaticl no matter what names it inferior to the wizard, which is totally 100% against what I want for this. Sorry my writer ring was not clear on the way the control works.

[Steampunkette]

Ahhhhh! No. It's my fault for misunderstanding.

Carry on!

Still think they should be able to Corpse-splode their undead. >.>

[Giegue]

I do to, so I added that in..and made the wording more clear on Undead Controller. The fact you got confused is good because it made me realize my grammar was not up to snuff and created a very rules abusive mistake..which would not be good. So pointing out my grammar was unclear was a big, big favor..since grammar is not my strong suit. Thanks for doing that!