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Thread: Problem with cooperation
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2007-07-04, 01:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Problem with cooperation
Alright, this is a problem that has plagued me probably since day 1. Of all the people I play with, there is little to no teamwork or cooperation among us, especially when I DM for some reason. Whenever there's a group, everyone does one thing really strongly and does their best to annihilate the monsters alone while their team-mates also whack away at it. Often times one or two people will fill the same role, and one or the other competes to the death who's the better damage dealer or what have you.
Alright, back to the point, how can I make players actually cooperate and use teamwork?
One theory I've devised is to make alot of challenges that can only be solved one way, and only if they work together. Thoughts?My Deviantart, Please enjoy it.
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2007-07-04, 01:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Problem with cooperation
Start utilizing NPCs as opponents, but have the NPCs cooperate and learn team work.. sometimes the best way to learn a lesson is to get your face beat in.
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2007-07-04, 01:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Problem with cooperation
Teamwork is a hard thing to quantify. I'm not sure I'd jump right into those one-solution challenges too quickly, though. Gamers are like cats. Cats spend their entire lives walking around the house making sure everything is where it was before, and therefore get very perturbed if something changes
Slight silliness aside, I'm an advocate of talking to your Players. You should let them know how you feel about the teamwork issue, because they might have a different perspective. After that conversation, feel free to say "Things might be harder from here on out if you continue with the 'beating your head against the problem' approach."
I can't stress enough to make sure your changes are gradual and that you bring attention to them. It's very frustrating to have what worked before suddenly change on you.
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2007-07-04, 01:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-07-04, 01:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Problem with cooperation
Well, if you're playing, the answer is really simple. Get together with another one or two of the players and make your characters have connected back stories. This often means you'll be creating characters together and thus creating characters that compliment each other well. I know in one of my campaigns that I actually got to play in, this worked wonders for our teamwork. Our fighter was a meatshield for the party, my character was the high HP caster and therefore the back-up meatshield with a reach weapon for AoO (kinda a more spell-caster sided Gish), the sorceror was a damage output, the rogue gave horrendous minuses through taunts and did sneak attacks, and the healer healed. It worked with incredible synergy.
If you're GM'ing, it's usually easier to get them to start by sending them against battles with one really strong guy instead of a few small ones. Someone with a lot of HP, but little damage output for their level and a strength that covers every member. This will usually do the trick.
If neither of these work, the answer might be to switch to a different system. For a party that doesn't have teamwork already, D&D can be a very hard system to start teamwork in. If you'd like some suggestions, I know some wonderful games you could run short campaigns in.
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2007-07-04, 01:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Problem with cooperation
Do it in subtle ways. Give them hints. Make something easier if they work together, with maybe a prophecy or something to tell them....
"Together they shall stand, divided they shall fall."
.....Or just give them a bunch of cool teamwork based feats/spells/items/doomsday device. Whatever floats your boat.Adsum!
To every action force there is an equal, but opposite, reaction force. So somewhere, in the D&D universe, there is a bunch of law abiding, well spoken people who don't urinate on their enemies, burn down pubs, or commit genocide when bored.
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2007-07-04, 01:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-07-04, 02:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Problem with cooperation
I'm not advocating this... well, okay, I guess I am but I don't like it personally.
However, this might work for you. We had a DM once have us pick base classes out of a hat. We got to choose race/religion/stats/skills etc... but we had to play that class... for at least one level.
It was a challenge, both RP-wise and Mechanics-wise because you're playing something that more than likely you would have never picked. Granted once we started we ran with it and had some fun, but I still like picking my own class.
You could put classes in a hat. Pick classes you know have the capability of complimenting each other. Pick classes that are rarely played (no druids or warlocks in the hat?... evil). Pick classes that are slightly weaker.
And also follow the rest of the advice in this thread because it's good.
Happy gaming.Last edited by -Cor-; 2007-07-04 at 02:58 AM. Reason: y-o-u-r... y-o-u-'-r-e... they're as different as night and day!
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2007-07-04, 08:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Problem with cooperation
Tactics. When you DM, throw tactical challenges at them. Make it so that standing there blasting/whacking/stabbing the hell out if an opponent is going to lead to a TPK, or at the very least the party running off with their tails between their legs to lick their wounds.
First off, warn them out of character before the game begins something along the lines of "This session's going to be a tough one. You're really going to need to work together to get everyone out alive." That way you excuse yourself from having to pull the punches and they've all had fair warning. Anything that goes wrong as a result is entirely their fault.
Then, throw them against something that needs brainpower and teamwork to overcome. Maybe have them being followed and let them walk through a valley with AMBUSH written all over it, allowing them to set up a quick, easy, no danger kill for their pursuers. Maybe chuck them up against some big nasty like that damn crab that has reach and horrible attacks. You could do the Linear Guild thing and send them up against a party of adventurers that's perfectly balanced to match them but works together in the way they don't.
Perhaps you could be sneaky about it in character and force them into a mission where they have to protect each other. Perhaps someone hires the PCs to transport an item, then bonds it to the soul of the tank. The tank has to stand at the front and protect the others, because they're far too fragile on their own, but now everyone else has to try and protect the tank as well. An even less subtle way would be to have some demon/wizard/whatever make it so that each depends on the others to actually stay alive. To take a fantasy cliché, he swaps their hearts around, so if the character with your heart dies, you die too. Then they have to protect each other if they want to protect themselves.
Don't forget to reward them well when they do eventually work together. Perhaps the wizard's heart being in the fighter's body gives him a couple of points of much-needed con when he finally gets it back, and the fighter gains some sort of spell like ability. Maybe have a group identity like the Order of the Stick bestowed upon them by a wealthy king, along with plenty of lovely loot.de·fen·es·tra·tion (dē-fĕn'ĭ-strā'shən)
n.
An act of throwing someone or something out of a window.
[From DE– + Latin fenestra, window.]
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2007-07-04, 08:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Problem with cooperation
Hey, it worked for Gimli and Legolas.
In all seriousness, though, what do you actually *gain* by encouraging "teamwork" in your group? In fact, what do you mean by "teamwork" anyway?
If the party is attacking a monster, and everybody is doing their best to do as much damage to it as possible, how is that not "teamwork"? What do you want people to actually do differently?
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2007-07-04, 08:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-07-04, 08:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Problem with cooperation
de·fen·es·tra·tion (dē-fĕn'ĭ-strā'shən)
n.
An act of throwing someone or something out of a window.
[From DE– + Latin fenestra, window.]
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2007-07-04, 08:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Problem with cooperation
The Care Bears always used to have this problem. A problem would come up and they'd all have thier own opinion on the best course of action. They'd huddle up and you'd hear..
Give him a hug...
Play a game of baseball.....
Tell the teacher he's sick...
THROW A PARTY! ...
hahah actually I used to love the Throw a party bear. I mean the other bears wouldn't always say the same thing. They occasionalyl had other ideas, but Fun Time bear nope no matter the problem was his suggestion was always "Throw A Party!" Hahahah.. yeah those were good times....
Anyway....
They'd usually find that thier individual idea's wouldn't work and eventually they'd have to all get together and hit the baddies with the care bear stare.
That's what your group needs. A bad guy that's resistant to parties.
Here's something I like to do. Occasionalyl toss in a custom monster, or change up the physics a bit.
For instance let's say the group is fighting some kind of ice monster. Give the thing both damage reduction and energy resistance. so that individually thier attacks can't get through.
But if they work in concert they can get through. So find ways of discribing their attacks to give clues as to the natuire of the beast. For instance say the wizard hits the ice beast with a ray of heat. Describe how his outer layer seems to melt for a moment, before quickly hardening again.
Or how a warriors attack may crack the outer coating of ice but that it heals up quickly as you watch,
They may get the idea to co-ordinate an attack. if they do give them an award for it. Say the warrior and wizard co-ordinate thier attack for the round. The ray of heat melts away the creatures outer armor opening up a lane of attack for the warrior. Or vice versa. Then for the next round the creatures damage reduction or energy resistance goes down, before comign back up on the following turn.
Or you can make a baddie with say a weak spot on it's back or something. A weak spot that can only be reliably hit when the creature is prone. Yet the creature may be a little too hard to knock over with just one player. So they have to co-ordinate to get hinm on his back before they gang bang him.
If you go back to role playign the combat a bit more, or simply allow options other than just, "I swing - then roll the dice" The above options don't even really have to be house rules in. The game mechanics untoucher leave you plenty of ways to do the above and you don't even have to make any special allowances or change anything.
Just be more imaginative with your encounters.
Not just in combat. Traps and puzzles are another good way to get them to work together. Put more details into your traps, and do not let them disarm traps simply by saying, "Ok I am rollign my disarm traps ability." Ask them HOW they're disarming the trap. Put enough detail into your traps and puzzles that they can actually see paterns.
Liek a trap that requires simultaneous actions to disarm, that can't be doen by one person, that sort of thing.Custom Avatar By: "The Chilli God"
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2007-07-04, 09:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Problem with cooperation
I've always considered myself lucky that my group agrees, even when we disagree. By which I mean, OUTSIDE the game they will be laughing and having fun while their characters INSIDE the game are trying to stab each other in the face.
My group plays for entertainment above all things. We're trying to make for an interesting game that engages us creatively. One party member deciding to act on his own wouldn't be any fun, unless the group found it fun that they were trying to keep their loose cannon halfling wizard from casting expeditious retreat, fire shield, and sprinting into the enemy and body checking them.
That's the kind of situation that could become very akward for a gaming group. No, it's not really strategically sound for your low hitpoint master of the arcane arts to get ticked off and headbutt the half-ogre barbarian. And yeah, the battlefield did just change in our enemies favor.
But dammit. It was FUNNY. So the fighter has to run (much slower) after the wizard shouting at him to knock it off, bull rushing enemies that are trying to hit the little raging idiot, and the healer tries to keep the little guy alive while the rogue starts looting the surrounding area "Looking for something that might help" (failed bluff check), and the party face just walks-freaking-away heading back to town to look for a new group.
And then the group has to catch up to the party face and talk them out of retiring at age 20 and just buying a farm somewhere to get away from 'taffers like you', an d the halfling wizard shuffles his feet and apologizes and says he won't do it again even though that's the third freaking time it's HAPPENED and SWEET CHRIST YOU'RE ONLY FORTY FREAKING POUNDS WHAT WERE YOU THINKING.
Yeah. Not that that happened to us or anything.
But that could be a real problem in a group that hadn't allready decided to act as a group and just be entertained by the insanity.
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2007-07-04, 06:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Problem with cooperation
XD I swear Silver, you have the most entertaining party stories. The problem isn't backstabbing, I'd prefer backstabbing over a group of people consisting of a few 1-person parties. If they're backstabbing it means they're acknowledging eachothers existances. This is likely why I play so many CE characters, to unite everyone together and against me.
Last edited by Krimm_Blackleaf; 2007-07-04 at 06:48 PM.
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2007-07-04, 07:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-07-04, 07:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Problem with cooperation
Between the LG wizard and the CG bard, I'm a bigger nemesis than the lich lord coming to skin us.
"I cast mage armor and prepare to cast shield"
"I can't do anything, I'm paralyzed"
"I take a statue and shove it through the window and jump out, leaving them alone with the lich"
"....I hate you"Last edited by Krimm_Blackleaf; 2007-07-04 at 07:15 PM.
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2007-07-05, 12:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Problem with cooperation
....
I hope this isn't a truthful anecdote.
Because nothing screams "teamwork" more to me than leaving the rest of the party in dire straits to make good on your own personal escape.[/sarcasm] It sounds like you really don't have much ground to stand on when you complain about your current players.
I applaud you attempting to get your players to work together. It sounds like you could benefit from your own advice on this matter xp
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2007-07-05, 01:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Problem with cooperation
You could have a character in the party who's only any good when he uses his teamwork abilities. Like a White-Raven-focused Crusader or Warblade. Or a Marshall.
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2007-07-05, 11:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Problem with cooperation
Teamwork effects from Heroes of Battle and the PHBII. They'll do you some good, and in and of themselves they're absolutely gorgeous.
In addition, I second the motions of demonstrating the power of teamwork with NPC antagonists and setting up situations that require working together.Exchange of Realities: For writers, for gamers, for those who want to be both. Check it out!
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2007-07-05, 11:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Problem with cooperation
Switch to playing Paranoia in my opinion
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2007-07-05, 11:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Problem with cooperation
Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2007-07-05, 11:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Problem with cooperation
I agree with many above: smart enemies make smart players.
Single enemies somewhat force teamwork by default by being a single focus. Multiple lower level creatures that behave like an organized party of their own can often be more deadly.
Kobolds with heavy shields fight defensive and tie up the meleers while slowly backing away, their archers harass the mage and second liners with arrows, while a pair of rogues that the party passed without noticing come out of hiding behind the wizard.Last edited by Diggorian; 2007-07-05 at 11:46 PM.
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2007-07-05, 11:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Problem with cooperation
Yep, I second this. One of the best ways for a party to learn to work together is to see someone else do it first. So the cleric with shield other on the tank. The Wizard casting greater invisibility on the rogue etc. Once your players see their opponents do these things they may start adopting it themselves.
Cheers
Grrosgor
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2007-07-09, 06:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Problem with cooperation
Also, consider having a 'Party Leader'. Depends on the group and the Campaign in question, but I have always found it useful to have a nominal leader of the group (even if it alternates).
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