[3.x] Could you build a "better" Ranger by other routes?

[Kiero]

I've been giving this one a little thought, spurred on some by my reading of True20. Where I can build the kind of Ranger I'd want without even venturing outside of the Warrior role.

Essentially, I could do without the spellcasting or animal companion, don't need them. So is it possible to build a better wilderness warrior with Fighter and Rogue for example? Or Fighter and Scout? Or some other combination of classes?

[Matthew]

Fighter and Scout do a pretty good job. However, your Ranks in Ranger type Skills will never be as good and you will be lacking Heal as a Class Skill.

Personally, I would be more inclined to build a Variant, but I take it you're looking for a RAW way to do it?

[Kiero]

Fighter and Scout do a pretty good job. However, your Ranks in Ranger type Skills will never be as good and you will be lacking Heal as a Class Skill.

Personally, I would be more inclined to build a Variant, but I take it you're looking for a RAW way to do it?

Essentially, yes, I was looking for a RAW way. Would a Fighter/Scout be better in toe-to-toe than a straight Ranger? They've got access to Weapon Specialisation for one.

If you customised, would trading away spellcasting and the Animal Companion be worth a HD upgrade?

[Matthew]

Well, it depends what rules you are using and the level you are looking at. Fighter/Scout is a good solid Character, but you do trade out one point of BAB over the first eight levels (assuming an even distribution of levels). Like any Multi Class combination, there are advantages and disadvantages.

In 3.0, the Ranger had Medium Armour Proficiency and a 1D10 Hit Die. Dumping the Animal Companion and Spell Casting would more than compensate in my opinion.

[Ikkitosen]

Has anyone tried giving the ranger full animal companion progression without taking anything from them? I'd be interedted to see them operate as a team combatant alongside a companion that's actually useful in combat.

[banjo1985]

Has anyone tried giving the ranger full animal companion progression without taking anything from them? I'd be interedted to see them operate as a team combatant alongside a companion that's actually useful in combat.

Yeah, I let my players have a homebrew in one of my old campaigns, where their animal companions gained proper levels when they did, so they got a mean BAB and HD by the end. It worked pretty well, but only because all the players had classes where animal companions or familiars or mounts could be had, so everyone got the same advantage. With a different party makeup it could be a problem, cuz it's almost like you're giving the player an extra character, at least in combat.

[Citizen Joe]

I think there are some animal handling tricks in Complete Adventurer that allows the animals to aid another in either attack or defense. The attack version tries to get into a flanking position as well. This works well for canines (particularly wolves and riding dogs with their built in free trip feature) due to that tactic being natural to them. So, get a riding dog companion and then a couple guard dogs and you'll likely get +8 to your attack rolls (+2 for flanking, +2 for each successful AC 10 attack). If you're playing in Eberron, you could even get Magebred animals and focus on improving their dexterity and natural armour. Then throw some barding on them... Just watch out for the Space Cows.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Oriental Adventures had a Ranger variant that had no spellcasting or animal companion. In exchange, he got a bonus feat at every level he would have gotten a new spell level. That is to say at 4th, 8th, 11th, and 14th.

Your biggest problem here will be a tradeoff of skills and BAB. Rangers get 6+Int mod skill points per level. This is second only to the Rogue, who gets 8. However, the Rogue gets 3/4 BAB rather than full BAB, and doesn't get all the nature type stuff either.

Honestly, it depends on what kind of ranger you're wanting to build.

For a 'primal woodsman', I'd suggest Barbarian. They get Survival as a class skill, and have little else to spend it on. Don't bother with two weapons, go for a two-handed weapon instead and do a lot more damage. Sure, you'll be blowing your 1st level Feat on Track, but you can track and keep your party alive in the wilderness. Keep in mind, there's nothing that keeps you from using a longbow as well, softening up targets before you rage.

If you're wanting to build a 'forward observation' ranger, with things like hide, move silently, spot, search, and listen... go Rogue. That way you also get Trapfinding. After a few levels, dip a couple of Fighter, then go Horizion Walker. It gives you some tasty good stuff like Darkvision, immunity to fatigue, and at level 6, you can get the ability to Dimension Door once every 1d4 rounds.

[Dan_Hemmens]

What's wrong with the Barbarian?

Wilderness skills, check. Full BAB, check. All the weapon proficiencies you'll ever need. Plus a bunch of handy reflex-based abilities which fit any wilderness type.

The only thing that stands out is Rage, but you can reflavour that into something else easily enough.

[Matthew]

Barbarians are missing some pretty important Class Skills. Spot, Search, Hide and Sneak being the most obvious. Unless you mean Barbarian in place of Fighter, in which case it's six and two threes as to which you prefer.

[Ikkitosen]

The ranger niche is just...nonexistent, that's the problem. I mean, what do rangers do best? Wilderness warrior: Barbarian. Wilderness scout guy: Scout. Front-line warrior: Fighter/many other classes.

Weak-ass-wilderness-warrior-crappy-caster-with-wimpy-animal-guy?: Ranger.

EDIT: Of course as a multiclass the new(ish) scout/ranger archer build utilising complete scoundrel is good, but that's more to do with the awesomeness of the feat and the skirmish ability.

[Wulfram]

Wilderness Rogue/Barbarian would be a very decent Ranger replacement. As indeed would WR/Fighter or straight WR.

[Matthew]

The ranger niche is just...nonexistent, that's the problem. I mean, what do rangers do best? Wilderness warrior: Barbarian. Wilderness scout guy: Scout. Front-line warrior: Fighter/many other classes.

Weak-ass-wilderness-warrior-crappy-caster-with-wimpy-animal-guy?: Ranger.

It's pretty depressing really. Fighters are still a 'good' choice no matter how many Samurai/Knight/Barbarians/etc.. pseudo Fighter Classes you bring out because they're customisable, but the Ranger is locked into some simply awful Class Features.

[Starsinger]

The Ranger niche is the one for someone who wants to wield a bow while using wands of cure light wounds.

[Kiero]

In True20, the kind of "ranger" I'd want is easy; you take the Warrior role and just choose the right Feats and Skills. I want someone who can step into the frontline when desired and lay about them with two weapons, then ghost away again, not an archer. Fantasy special-forces type, basically.

Seems the best way to get it in D&D is a Scout/Fighter/Ranger combo, since both Scout and Ranger have the same HD. Or maybe just Fighter/Scout, not sure how much you get out of Ranger. Is that just for Heal, perhaps?

In a wilderness-oriented game, the Scout seems a much better choice than Rogue - more hit points for one and skirmishing is broader than sneak attack in applicability.

[DSCrankshaw]

The ranger niche is just...nonexistent, that's the problem. I mean, what do rangers do best? Wilderness warrior: Barbarian. Wilderness scout guy: Scout. Front-line warrior: Fighter/many other classes.

Weak-ass-wilderness-warrior-crappy-caster-with-wimpy-animal-guy?: Ranger.

I dunno. Rangers get some pretty decent spells if you use the Spell Compendium: things like Hunter's Mercy (next ranged attack is automatically a critical if it hits), Bladestorm (two melee attacks against every enemy in threatened area), Arrowstorm (one ranged attack against every enemy in one range increment), Foebane (turn your weapon into a bane weapon against a favored enemy). Granted, the ranger doesn't get much in the way of direct attack spells, but you don't really expect him to. He does get some reasonable self-buff spells, which is what he should have.

Their biggest weakness as melee fighters is the low AC and HP. This can be ameliorated with the proper build. Like, say, using a dwarf and a sword (or waraxe)-and-board build (Improved Shield Bash, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack + a bashing spiked heavy shield (d10 damage die/ + 1 enhancement/+3 AC)).

The weak companion has some ways to improve it, as well. The feat, Animal Bond from Complete Adventurer, is also a good choice for a ranger who wants a more powerful animal companion. At 6th level he can be a match for a druid companion, and only one step behind up through 15th. For extra goodness, you could choose a gnome and use the racial substitution level from Races of Stone, to get an extra step for a burrowing animal (allowing you to take an animal one step higher than normal, such as a dire badger or wolverine). This won't let you have a companion more powerful than a druid's, though, only equal, up through 14th level, one step behind after that.

[Dausuul]

In True20, the kind of "ranger" I'd want is easy; you take the Warrior role and just choose the right Feats and Skills. I want someone who can step into the frontline when desired and lay about them with two weapons, then ghost away again, not an archer. Fantasy special-forces type, basically.

Seems the best way to get it in D&D is a Scout/Fighter/Ranger combo, since both Scout and Ranger have the same HD. Or maybe just Fighter/Scout, not sure how much you get out of Ranger. Is that just for Heal, perhaps?

In a wilderness-oriented game, the Scout seems a much better choice than Rogue - more hit points for one and skirmishing is broader than sneak attack in applicability.

How about this: Dip two levels in ranger to get TWF, Track, and the ranger class skills. Pick up the Able Learner feat. Then go warblade the rest of the way. You get full BAB all the way, medium armor proficiency (silent shadowed mithral full plate, anyone?), nice big d12 Hit Dice from third level on, you can use Tiger Claw to make your TWF effective, and all your class skills from ranger stay class skills.

[Piccamo]

I think Barbarian 1 / Scout 3 / Ranger 16 would work out ok.

Barb 1 take the pounce variant. After Scout 3 take the feat that stacks scout and ranger levels for skirmish (swift skirmisher I think). Take the TWF tree. Ranger gets some decent spells if you throw in the Spell Compendium. With pounce you'll be able to make use of skirmish in melee better.

[Kiero]

How about this: Dip two levels in ranger to get TWF, Track, and the ranger class skills. Pick up the Able Learner feat. Then go warblade the rest of the way. You get full BAB all the way, medium armor proficiency (silent shadowed mithral full plate, anyone?), nice big d12 Hit Dice from third level on, you can use Tiger Claw to make your TWF effective, and all your class skills from ranger stay class skills.

Though Warblade isn't a wilderness warrior, are they? Nor is full-plate really skirmisher material!

[Dausuul]

Though Warblade isn't a wilderness warrior, are they? Nor is full-plate really skirmisher material!

If you have Able Learner and at least one level in ranger, any class you pick up after that is a wilderness warrior. The ranger level lets you max out all the wilderness skills, and Able Learner lets you do it without having to pay 2-for-1.

As for the mithral full plate, yeah, it slows you down some. If you want mobility over AC, get a mithral breastplate or a chain shirt instead.

[Matthew]

In True20, the kind of "ranger" I'd want is easy; you take the Warrior role and just choose the right Feats and Skills. I want someone who can step into the frontline when desired and lay about them with two weapons, then ghost away again, not an archer. Fantasy special-forces type, basically.

Seems the best way to get it in D&D is a Scout/Fighter/Ranger combo, since both Scout and Ranger have the same HD. Or maybe just Fighter/Scout, not sure how much you get out of Ranger. Is that just for Heal, perhaps?

In a wilderness-oriented game, the Scout seems a much better choice than Rogue - more hit points for one and skirmishing is broader than sneak attack in applicability.

Hmmn. I had a bash at a Scout/Ranger/Fighter combo with the building a Credible Drizzt Thread. I only got as far as Level 12 or something, but the premise seemed fairly good to me. Leap Attack/Two Weapon Fighting/Two Weapon Pounce - and without Drizzt limitations you could get Shock Trooper in there. Here:

Drizzt [Elf Scout 1] MS 30, AB 0(2), AC 18, HP 10,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 19, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 0(2), Reflexes 2(6), Willpower 0(2),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting,
Skills: Jump 4(6), Climb 4(6), Swim 4(6), Hide 4(8), Sneak 4(8), Spot 4(6), Listen 4(6), Search 4(6), Survival 4(6), Knowledge (Underdark),

Drizzt [Elf Scout 1/Fighter 1] MS 30, AB 1(3), AC 18, HP 17,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 19, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 2(4), Reflexes 2(6), Willpower 0(2),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting,
Skills: Jump 5(7), Climb 5(7), Swim 5(7), Hide 4(8), Sneak 4(8), Spot 4(6), Listen 4(6), Search 4(6), Survival 4(6), Knowledge (Underdark) 4(6), Handle Animal 1(3),

Drizzt [Elf Scout 2/Fighter 1] MS 30, AB 2(4), AC 18, HP 24,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 19, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 2(4), Reflexes 3(7), Willpower 0(2),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack,
Skills: Jump 6(8), Climb 6(8), Swim 6(8), Hide 5(9), Sneak 5(9), Spot 5(7), Listen 5(7), Search 5(7), Survival 5(7), Knowledge (Underdark) 5(7), Handle Animal 1(3),

Drizzt [Elf Scout 2/Fighter 2] MS 30, AB 3(5), AC 19, HP 31,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 20, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 3(5), Reflexes 3(8), Willpower 0(2),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave,
Skills: Jump 7(9), Climb 7(9), Swim 7(9), Hide 5(10), Sneak 5(10), Spot 5(7), Listen 5(7), Search 5(7), Survival 5(7), Knowledge (Underdark) 5(7), Handle Animal 2(4),

Drizzt [Elf Scout 3/Fighter 2] MS 40, AB 4(6), AC 19, HP 38,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 20, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 3(5), Reflexes 3(8), Willpower 1(3),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave,
Skills: Jump 8(10), Climb 8(10), Swim 8(10), Hide 6(11), Sneak 6(11), Spot 6(8), Listen 6(8), Search 6(8), Survival 6(8), Knowledge (Underdark) 6(8), Handle Animal 2(4),

Drizzt [Elf Scout 3/Fighter 3] MS 40, AB 5(8), AC 19, HP 45,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 20, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 3(5), Reflexes 3(8), Willpower 2(4),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Scimitar),
Skills: Jump 9(11), Climb 9(11), Swim 9(11), Hide 6(11), Sneak 6(11), Spot 6(8), Listen 6(8), Search 6(8), Survival 6(8), Knowledge (Underdark) 6(8), Handle Animal 3(5),

Drizzt [Elf Scout 4/Fighter 3] MS 40, AB 6(9), AC 19, HP 52,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 20, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 3(5), Reflexes 4(9), Willpower 2(4),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Combat Expertise,
Skills: Jump 10(12), Climb 10(12), Swim 10(12), Hide 7(12), Sneak 7(12), Spot 7(9), Listen 7(9), Search 7(9), Survival 7(9), Knowledge (Underdark) 7(9), Handle Animal 3(5),

Drizzt [Elf Scout 4/Fighter 4] MS 40, AB 7(11), AC 19, HP 59,
Abilities: Strength 16, Dexterity 20, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 4(6), Reflexes 4(9), Willpower 2(4),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Combat Expertise, Weapon Specialisation (Scimitar),
Skills: Jump 10(13), Climb 10(13), Swim 10(13), Hide 7(12), Sneak 7(12), Spot 7(9), Listen 7(9), Search 7(9), Survival 7(9), Knowledge (Underdark) 7(9), Handle Animal 7(9),

Drizzt [Elf Scout 4/Fighter 4/Ranger 1] MS 40, AB 8(12), AC 19, HP 66,
Abilities: Strength 16, Dexterity 20, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 6(8), Reflexes 6(11), Willpower 2(4),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Combat Expertise, Weapon Specialisation (Scimitar), Track, Two Weapon Pounce,
Skills: Jump 10(13), Climb 10(13), Swim 10(13), Hide 7(12), Sneak 7(12), Spot 7(9), Listen 7(9), Search 7(9), Survival 7(9), Knowledge (Underdark) 7(9), Knowledge (Nature) 4(6), Handle Animal 7(9), Heal 4(6),

Drizzt [Elf Scout 4/Fighter 4/Ranger 2] MS 40, AB 9(13), AC 19, HP 72,
Abilities: Strength 16, Dexterity 20, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 7(9), Reflexes 7(12), Willpower 2(4),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Combat Expertise, Weapon Specialisation (Scimitar), Track, Two Weapon Pounce, Leap Attack,
Skills: Jump 10(13), Climb 10(13), Swim 10(13), Hide 7(12), Sneak 7(12), Spot 8(10), Listen 8(10), Search 8(10), Survival 8(10), Knowledge (Underdark) 7(9), Knowledge (Nature) 7(9), Handle Animal 7(9), Heal 5(7),

Drizzt [Elf Scout 4/Fighter 4/Ranger 3] MS 40, AB 10(14), AC 19, HP 79,
Abilities: Strength 16, Dexterity 20, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 7(9), Reflexes 7(12), Willpower 3(5),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Combat Expertise, Weapon Specialisation (Scimitar), Track, Two Weapon Pounce, Leap Attack, Endurance,
Skills: Jump 10(13), Climb 10(13), Swim 10(13), Hide 7(12), Sneak 7(12), Spot 8(10), Listen 8(10), Search 8(10), Survival 8(10), Knowledge (Underdark) 8(10), Knowledge (Nature) 8(10), Knowledge (Geography) 4(6) Handle Animal 8(10), Heal 6(8),

Drizzt [Elf Scout 4/Fighter 4/Ranger 4] MS 40, AB 11(15), AC 19, HP 85,
Abilities: Strength 16, Dexterity 21, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 7(9), Reflexes 7(12), Willpower 3(5),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Combat Expertise, Weapon Specialisation (Scimitar), Track, Two Weapon Pounce, Leap Attack, Endurance, Improved Critical (Scimitar),
Skills: Jump 10(13), Climb 10(13), Swim 10(13), Hide 7(12), Sneak 7(12), Spot 8(10), Listen 8(10), Search 8(10), Survival 8(10), Knowledge (Underdark) 8(10), Knowledge (Nature) 8(10), Knowledge (Geography) 4(6) Handle Animal 8(10), Heal 6(8), [8 Skill Points to spend]

[Diggorian]

Yeah, Able Learner is that deal, if your a Human or Doppelganger.

I'd say modify the ranger with your DM's approval. I like Shneeky's idea from OA: gain bonus feat whenever you'd get a new spell and lose casting. Swap out the Animal Companion for a return to d10 HD.

[Kiero]

I'd say modify the ranger with your DM's approval. I like Shneeky's idea from OA: gain bonus feat whenever you'd get a new spell and lose casting. Swap out the Animal Companion for a return to d10 HD.

That would be perfect, IMO. Is it balanced?

[Matthew]

Pretty much. It doesn't sound overpowered particularly.

Note: Combat Style with Two Weapon Fighting presents diminishing returns. Improved and Greater Two Weapon Fighting are pretty bad Feats.

[Diggorian]

That would be perfect, IMO. Is it balanced?

I'm figuring this:

Bonus feats are akin to their spell progression, roughly. Spells are more potent but you can use feats 24/7.

Animal companions are damage magnets, so they're kinda like bonus hit points ... that move and do tricks. Is a wolf worth the extra average +1 per level? For a druid no, but for the ranger's reduced ability pet, i'm thinking yeah.

I estimate it's balanced, but only long term play will tell.

[nerulean]

WotC think that the spells-for-feats, at least, are balanced with 3.5 (whether that's saying much, who can tell?) since the variant ranger in Complete Champion lists just that: no spells, feat at 4, 8, 11 and 14.

They think the animal companion is equal balance-wise to a bonus of 1/4 your ranger level to spot, listen, search, handle animal, knowledge (nature) and survival, as well as a free casting of Commune with nature once per day, provided you're not in a heavily settled area. That seems somewhat convoluted to me.

[Damionte]

I'd like to help but I haven't yet grasped what it is you really want.

[Mr the Geoff]

I may be missing the point but surely a Barbarian with the Track feat covers this off by itself.

Survival as a class skill, light armoured and fast moving, and melee combat is not a problem at all. You could probably even make a fairly decent archer barbarian with the appropriate feat selection.

Take a barbarian with 18 strength, add +1 strength at 4, 8,12,16,20 to give 23 strength at level 20, 6 more from magic items, 8 more while raging to give him 1d8+13 damage every shot (with a +13 strength rated composite longbow).

[Matthew]

I would say you would indeed be missing the point. Barbarian's are missing a mess of Skills and such, as noted above.

[Mattarias, King.]

How to make rangers better? give them the ability to summon large, transforming, combinable constructs. but only when facing something two size categories bigger.

Sorry. The rest of my ideas were ninja'd by the time i opened this post. ^^;