Dungeon/* world - what to do when a move is not available to players?

[Madeiner]

Hi :)
I'm stil trying to understand the * world system.
There's one thing that doesn't click especially.

The PCs want to break down an obstacle. Say, a portcullis is in their way.
This is covered by the fighter class move, "Bend bars, lift gate". It's really easy to use that. I'm going to reference that for ease of reading.

Bend Bars, Lift Gates

When you use pure strength to destroy an inanimate obstacle, roll+Str.

✴ On a 10+, choose 3.

✴ On a 7-9 choose 2.

It doesn’t take a very long time
Nothing of value is damaged
It doesn’t make an inordinate amount of noise
You can fix the thing again without a lot of effort

What about when there is no fighter in the party? As the DM, should i be aware of that move when deciding what to do? Should i be aware of EVERY class move in that regards?

What if they decide to try and batter it down. I might not think of them damaging their equipment, or making noise.
However, i will surely remember that when the fighter does it, as he has a specific move for that.

What if the non-fighter then asks how to fix that portcullis. Should it always require an effort? Otherwise, what's the point of choosing "You can fix the thing again without a lot of effort" as a fighter?

What if there are no fighters in the party at all? Does everyone get a chance to fix that thing without effort? If yes, then actually getting a fighter is not helping the party at all. If not, then i have to memorize every move in order not to "step on other classes' toes"

[Koo Rehtorb]

The main advantage of that particular move is that it spells out clearly what happens on a partial success. If someone who isn't a fighter is trying to break down a door then you have much freer reign to screw them over with the results on a 7-9.

[Cybren]

It's worth remembering that the Powered by the Apocalypse games are all about fictional positioning. You can do anything, it just so happens that if you do something that triggers a move you use the move. Theoretically your fighter shouldn't be saying "I bend bars/lift gates!" they should say "I take out my sledgehammer and slam it into the gate, picking the spot i think is the weakest". Any character can do that, and then as the DM you narrate what happens, and you and the other players will note if someones actions trigger a particular move.

[icefractal]

Huh, that one is interesting, because it's actually a little less favorable than what I'd eyeball if it didn't exist, which would probably be something like:

10+: You did it.
7-9: You did it, but also choose one of: made a big noise/damaged something valuable/strained a muscle.

But in fact, you have to do something inconvenient even on a 10, and two of them on a 7-9. So ... huh. Knowing that the move exists, maybe I'd use a diminished form of it, like choose 2 on 10, choose 1 on 7-9. But since that's harsher than I'd rule without the existence of the move, it does come back to "you have to know all the moves of every class, even the ones nobody is playing".

[BayardSPSR]

It's worth remembering that the Powered by the Apocalypse games are all about fictional positioning. You can do anything, it just so happens that if you do something that triggers a move you use the move. Theoretically your fighter shouldn't be saying "I bend bars/lift gates!" they should say "I take out my sledgehammer and slam it into the gate, picking the spot i think is the weakest". Any character can do that, and then as the DM you narrate what happens, and you and the other players will note if someones actions trigger a particular move.

In my experience, this tends to lead to players describing what they're doing in ways that heavily imply a specific move, usually one that they're rewarded for in some way (sometimes for increased probability/predictability of success, sometimes for increased probability of failure in Dungeon World).

[icefractal]

In my experience, this tends to lead to players describing what they're doing in ways that heavily imply a specific move, usually one that they're rewarded for in some way (sometimes for increased probability/predictability of success, sometimes for increased probability of failure in Dungeon World).

Agreed - I'm not at all a fan of "the GM picks the move", because it encourages stereotypical and less varied descriptions for anything the players care about succeeding on.

I know the trendy thing is to not care at all whether you succeed or fail, and so it doesn't matter what move you ended up using mechanically, but that's just not always the case, for me or most players I know. Just have the move stated explicitly, and then people can relax and have fun with the description.

[Cybren]

Agreed - I'm not at all a fan of "the GM picks the move", because it encourages stereotypical and less varied descriptions for anything the players care about succeeding on.

I know the trendy thing is to not care at all whether you succeed or fail, and so it doesn't matter what move you ended up using mechanically, but that's just not always the case, for me or most players I know. Just have the move stated explicitly, and then people can relax and have fun with the description.

the GM doesn't pick the move, the GM narrates the result of the characters specific action. any player is free to say that a particular move was triggered.

[BayardSPSR]

the GM doesn't pick the move, the GM narrates the result of the characters specific action. any player is free to say that a particular move was triggered.

Consistent with my perceptions.

Though, I've also seen GM-narrating-results fall apart when the description they intuitively offer doesn't match what the player's move says - which matters in particular when the player was heavily implying a specific move in order to produce specific results.

[goto124]

Agreed - I'm not at all a fan of "the GM picks the move", because it encourages stereotypical and less varied descriptions for anything the players care about succeeding on.

Concur. If I the player want to use a move my character is good at, I'll have to describe in a fashion that ensures my GM will decide to use the move I want to use, instead of some other move that my character is no good in. I may not be great at absolutely accurate descriptions, but my character knows what their best moves are and how to use them gosh darn it!

[ImNotTrevor]

Solving the "MC picking the move" problem is easy.

Describe your action. The MC will (if they're doing it right) say something like "That sounds like [Move], so roll X."

To which you can respond "I was going for [Other Move.]"

At which point you can quickly hash out the difference.

For instance, of a player is telling Dremmer (in AW) to get out of the way or take a load of buckshot to the head, I always clarify if the character is bluffing or not.
If no, Go Aggro.
If yes, Seduce/Manipulate.

Why?

Because if they are bluffing and I make them roll to Go Aggro, one of my two options is that the npc "sucks it up." If I choose that option, the bluffing character's success has turned into a failure. And that's a no-no. By using the seduce/manipulate, I ensure that it stays a success.

Moves tend to have relatively clear qualifiers that apply to many situations, so I have yet to run into a problem of people describing basically the same thing over and over unless it's just that kind of thing. (Most of the time, intimidating someone will feel pretty much the same. But that's the nature of being intimidating and not a fault of the system.)

To OP's question, I tend to approximate when a rule is not directly available using my Universal Move:

Roll +(Whatever seems right)
On a 10+, you get what you want.
On a 7-9, you get what you want but something bad also happens.
On a miss, you don't get what you want and something bad still happens.

[Koo Rehtorb]

To clarify, kicking a door down without being a fighter would fall under Defying Danger with strength. A fighter gets to pick what bad stuff happens on a 7-9. Any other class is at your mercy on a 7-9 with regards to the "worse outcome, hard bargain, or ugly choice".

While on an infiltration mission the fighter has the power to declare "this doesn't cause a lot of noise" on a 7-9. You can give another class the choice of "you can kick the door down, but it's going to alert everyone nearby if you do" on a 7-9. You could give them a debility in exchange for breaking the door down if it's particularly strong. It's really all up to you.

[flond]

The other thing to note is that, if no one has a fighter the GM is justified in saying that "No, no you can't bust this down with raw strength." Which doesn't mean you don't....y'know, do something. But it is entirely legitimate to say "You can't even try that. Pick another way." and make them risk their sword as a prybar or something.

[LibraryOgre]

If no one has the specific move, but I know about it, I'd be inclined to simply shift effects one level... so a non-fighter trying it would get 2 effects on a 10+, and only 1 effect on a 7-9.

Alternatively, you might base it off Defy Danger... 10+ and you succeed, 7-9 and you have a hard choice.

So, you might say "Ok, you got the door open, and it makes a ton of noise" on a 10+, because, hey, bashing down a door isn't quiet. On a 7-9, the GM might say "You got the door open, but you hit it weird... take 1d6 damage."

[Lapak]

If no one has the specific move, but I know about it, I'd be inclined to simply shift effects one level... so a non-fighter trying it would get 2 effects on a 10+, and only 1 effect on a 7-9.

Alternatively, you might base it off Defy Danger... 10+ and you succeed, 7-9 and you have a hard choice.

So, you might say "Ok, you got the door open, and it makes a ton of noise" on a 10+, because, hey, bashing down a door isn't quiet. On a 7-9, the GM might say "You got the door open, but you hit it weird... take 1d6 damage."

Or for a hard choice lifting a portcullis without the move, you might say something like "you manage to wrench it off the ground but find you're holding it in a an awkward position. You can hold it up long enough for everyone to get through, but it'll strain your muscles (Weak debility, -1 to STR until you have a chance to heal) or you can let it drop before that happens (last person through gets clipped by the falling portcullis and takes damage.)"

And either way, it's closed behind the party. Specialized moves should, in general, solve a problem more completely or cleanly than ad-hoc Defy Dangers and etc unless they hit a 10+.

The nice thing about hard choices phrased that way is that they can also give the party wiggle room for Aid Another moves ("I jump in to take some of the weight off him!") - a success there can push things into 10+ territory and save the party from the hard choice, a 6- puts that party member in the way of the portcullis when it comes down and they also end up taking a hit.