Flavor issues

[Falconsflight]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up before, and I'm sure it has. But does anybody understand the flavor behind the Sorcerer?

Now, lets see if I'm getting this straight. THe sorcerer is a magic user who gains all powers from within. All the energy and everything from his own soul or whatever. So what is the flavor reason behind him using words, items, and gestures? Why does he need to learn them?

I understand a wizard learning them. Within the words hold power. The items hold magic within them. The gestures seal the magic spell together. But that's only because he is trying to draw power from outside of himself.

So why does a sorcerer do all that stuff as well?

Also, on the same line of thought: Does a sorcerer need a teacher? or does he just know how to cast spells?

See, I always thought that spontaneous casters were better than wizards because they didn't need all of that mumbo jumbo. They don't need the items or the gestures. (Heck, I still prefer Spontaneous to preparing) but apparently they do. So why are they drawing power from words and gestures and items, when the power is within themselves.

(Note: I understand the mechanics reasoning. To keep the power level equal, etc, etc. but this is the story, the flavor behind it.)

[Kiero]

Because in the same way a wizard uses sounds and gestures to shape external forces, the sorceror uses them to marshall and discipline their internal forces. Their power is formless potential waiting to be used, you can't use it without putting form on it.

[Kurald Galain]

I think you're confusing a sorcerer with a psion.

[B!shop]

I Agree with Kiero.

Also, about the need of a teacher, a sorcerer needs to learn how to control his inner power, trying by himself, or learning from someone else.

[Dan_Hemmens]

I think the real answer to this is probably "because the designers forgot that words, gestures, and material components are actually part of spellcasting, since the rules almost completely gloss over them."

[nerulean]

Kiero's explanation works well for verbal and somatic components: the sorcerer is essentially shaping his raw power to do a certain thing through the use of words and gestures. When you cast a ray spell you hold out your hand in the direction of your target to direct the ray in the hope of zapping it, rather than just hoping a ray will spontaneously fly out of the air and hit it, could be an example. Similarly, the verbal component could be something like the shout a martial artist makes when he chops a breeze block in half with his toe. I got nothing for material components, though.

In all honesty, Dan's right. It's something they stuck in for balance and then forgot about.

[Callix]

Aside from the balance issues, a self-taught sorceror, of which there are many, has as many false ideas about magic as true. For them, they can't cast the spell without their individual mumbo-jumbo. Even once they realise it's not necessary at an intellectual level (Know (arc)), the instincual power that drives sorcerous power needs some sort of guide to stop it just flooding out and destroying everything nearby. You don't want to see what happens when an untrained sorcerer tries to go without those components!

[B!shop]

About material components, another point of view if that the inner energy of a spontaneous caster needs to shape them, like the dusted diamond for stoneskin (the dust transmuted to protection on the target of the spell), bat guano to throw and be lit to fireballs, and similar.

[Jimmy Discordia]

I'd say you're right in saying that Reason One for this is strictly game balance. Wizards need metamagic feats to get out of doing certain things to cast their spells; if sorcerers (and other spontaneous casters) didn't need these, they would be too powerful.

IMO, Kiero's explanation works for all components; just as certain words and gestures are necessary to focus the sorcerer's innate power into the desired form, certain spells require a material component or focus to somehow channel or shape their energy. Without using the components to shape the spell, the sorcerer is just throwing energy around incoherently.

(Note to self: invent rules for sorcerers throwing energy around without shaping it into spells per se. This could be fun.)

In my worlds (at least, the ones I've run so far) spontaneous casters don't need teachers. In some cases, they'll have teachers anyway, but they're more to provide guidance (read: flavor/adventure hooks) than real training.

An additional restriction I've always imposed is that no one who didn't start as a sorcerer can ever take any sorcerer levels. Sorcerers can multiclass freely, but if the gift hasn't manifested by the time they're old enough to go adventuring, it never will.

One of my worlds actually had a new base class to address this, called the Demoniac. Basically, the idea was that people born without innate magic could trade bits of their soul for it, a little bit more with each level. As I never had a player who wanted to play one, I never fully fleshed out the concept; as NPCs I treated them as sorcerers who radiated a strong aura of evil. Maybe someday I'll write it up as a PC class. I've been thinking of revisiting that world anyway.

[Starsinger]

Because the way it's introduced, Wizards are the "correct" arcane spell caster, and Sorcerers are "deviants" who do things the "not Wizardy" way. Likewise, why do Wizards get spells just for them, but Sorcerers, who are supposed to be more in touch with magic, don't. And since Wizards need material, somatic, and verbal components, Sorcerers do because the "right" class does too.

[Tallis]

Because the way it's introduced, Wizards are the "correct" arcane spell caster, and Sorcerers are "deviants" who do things the "not Wizardy" way. Likewise, why do Wizards get spells just for them, but Sorcerers, who are supposed to be more in touch with magic, don't. And since Wizards need material, somatic, and verbal components, Sorcerers do because the "right" class does too.

Where are there spells just for wizards? All the ones I know are wizard/sorcerer spells.

To the OP: The sorcerers talent for manipulating magic comes from within, not necessarily the power itself. They're still working with the same type of power that wizards are. That power needs to be shaped and focused. The easiest way to do that is through VSM components. A sorcerer's verbal and somatic components may be different from a wizards. The sorcerer is an artist feeling his way through, while the wizard is a scholar using formula's passed down through generations. This does not make the gestures any less necessary.

[Starsinger]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesLucubration.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mnemonicEnhancer.htm
Wizard only. Admittedly, due to the way spontaneous casting works, this wouldn't do a Sorcerer any good, but why do wizards need this?

[Mike_Lemmer]

Because the way it's introduced, Wizards are the "correct" arcane spell caster, and Sorcerers are "deviants" who do things the "not Wizardy" way. Likewise, why do Wizards get spells just for them, but Sorcerers, who are supposed to be more in touch with magic, don't. And since Wizards need material, somatic, and verbal components, Sorcerers do because the "right" class does too.

If you want Sorcerer-only spells, check out Dragon Magic.

[Tallis]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesLucubration.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mnemonicEnhancer.htm
Wizard only. Admittedly, due to the way spontaneous casting works, this wouldn't do a Sorcerer any good, but why do wizards need this?

Huh. Forgot about those.

[Corolinth]

Those aren't wizard-only because a sorcerer can't learn them on a theoretical level, they're wizard-only because a sorcerer can't gain any benefit. Why would a sorcerer ever instinctively develop a spell that wouldn't do him any good?

Player: "I'm gonna use a 6th level spell to get that 5th level slot back that I just spent!"

DM: "Why not just use the 6th level spell slot to cast whatever spell it is you want to cast, and save yourself a round?"

[Kurald Galain]

Those aren't wizard-only because a sorcerer can't learn them on a theoretical level,

No, those really are wizard-only because it says so in the RAW. Nearly every other spell says "Sor/Wiz 3", but this one simply says "Wiz 6". No sor.

[Morgan_Scott82]

Explaining the need for verbal and somatic components for sorcerers is easy.

Speaking in Tongues, Siezing, the natural reaction of a body when it channels more arcane might than it was strictly designed to, an instintual behavior pattern (i.e. how does a robin know how to build a nest, its instinct, how does a Sorcerer know how the gestures to cast Mage Armor, same thing, its instinct), some sort of divine inspiration (it came to me in a dream)... Honestly just find something that makes sense for your character and run with it.

[Kizara]

Like many people, I give sorcerers eschew materials for free.

For the simple reason that its not a relivant point of balance and that it's non-sensical. Why would all sorcerers, when they learn magic, use the same silly components to make their magic happen?

With things like verball and somantic components, there's nothing to say you don't simply go "Wave of Daggers!" (magic missile) and gesture grandly and empathically.

[Corolinth]

No, those really are wizard-only because it says so in the RAW. Nearly every other spell says "Sor/Wiz 3", but this one simply says "Wiz 6". No sor.

Why do you think that is? Why do you think the reason is that sorcerers can't learn them? Sorcerers naturally develop the talent to cast all of their spells. A sorcerer will never develop the talent to cast Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer. Why?

This question is similar to asking why the fighter receives proficiency with all martial weapons at level 1. Saying it's "because the book says so" is extremely myopic. I am aware what the book says. Now why do you think the book says that?

[Kurald Galain]

Now why do you think the book says that?

Game mechanics, obviously. There are quite a number of spells that no self-respecting sorcerer would ever instinctively develop since they wouldn't do him any good. These two, however, would cause a game-technical rules conflict between the spell text and the rules governing the sorcerer. That is why these two are forbidden and the dozen-plus spells that wouldn't do the sorcerer any good are allowed.

Besides, it's way more fun for a sorcerer character to pick a theme and homebrew some spells around that.

[Sornjss Lichdom]

ya the only difference from wiz and sor is that wiz dont spontanisly conect to the weave, the must study and become part of it, sor alrdy hav that connection. the words and gestrues and watnot are jsut ways of controling the rush of power that the connection to the weave creates

[Ryuuk]

Well, they can't get Lucubration because they essential give the wizard a bit of spontaneous casting. You lose one spell slot, but can replace it with any other spell you had prepared and cast before. Sorcerers can already do this by default by using a higher spell slot for any lower level spell they know. Mnemonic is similar, but for lower level spells.

[Zeful]

Because the way it's introduced, Wizards are the "correct" arcane spell caster, and Sorcerers are "deviants" who do things the "not Wizardy" way. Likewise, why do Wizards get spells just for them, but Sorcerers, who are supposed to be more in touch with magic, don't. And since Wizards need material, somatic, and verbal components, Sorcerers do because the "right" class does too.

Actually on an evolutionary scale, it's the other way around. Sorcerers showed up first throwing fireballs and teleports around and the would-be wizards got upset because they couldn't violate the laws of physics with such great disregard and studied magic to twart them.

In otherwords Wizards are just people that hate people better then them.

[Deepblue706]

I think the real answer to this is probably "because the designers forgot that words, gestures, and material components are actually part of spellcasting, since the rules almost completely gloss over them."

My guess too.

[SpikeFightwicky]

In otherwords Wizards are just people that hate people better then them.

So wizards don't hate anybody?

[Valdyr]

I think that Sorcerors are a little like the way Harry Potter is in the first book, before he learns that he's a wizard, or that Matilda is in the Roald Dahl book. You realize that you can do magical things, though you don't necessarily have control over that power. Harry makes the glass in the snake exhibit dissapear because he feels a strong emotion about it.

The reason sorcerors use material components and possibly have a teacher is for reproducability. A sorceror is filled with innate magical power, but only through the use of bat guano can he regularly produce a fireball that is aimed precisely where he wants it and is always the same size. I would imagine that without the preset verbal, somatic and material components, a sorceror would have a hard time getting the same thing to happen every time. The innate energies have to be channeled somehow and that's through the spell components that look remarkably similar to those the wizard uses.

This might explain why the sorceror has so few spells: he only can focus his power in a few distinct ways that ALWAYS work.

If you're DMing, you could have random magical effects happen around the sorceror that he has no control over, like the dissapearing glass trick that Harry Potter does, but the sorceror has a hard time getting that exact same thing to happen later when he wants it to.

[Kurald Galain]

Sorcery is art, wizardry is science.

[Starsinger]

Sorcery is art, wizardry is science.

Not if you ask that hideous Mialee... Her sorcerer bashing in Complete Mage makes me giggle.

[NullAshton]

In the campaigns I've been in, sorcerers have always had an innate knowledge of magic. They instinctually know the components of spells by heart. Wizards, however, have to carefully study diagrams on how to do it, using a much more complicated method than sorcerers because wizards have a lot less energy to use.

I've also always played it that wizards need a lot more 'components' than sorcerers do. The reason why wizards have to study for an hour is because they must 'cast' most of the spell first. It's basically an hour of pre-casting, letting the wizard use spells in the less than 6 seconds that most sorcerers take for granted.

[Solo]

Not if you ask that hideous Mialee... Her sorcerer bashing in Complete Mage makes me giggle.

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