0 level bonus spells?

[Swooper]

I've houseruled for long that casters gain bonus 0 level spells for high casting stat/specialization/etc. Is there a good reason I'm missing for NOT giving bonus 0 level spells, apart from the slightly strange resulting fact that having a casting stat of 10-11 grants a bonus spell?

[Dhavaer]

No, there's no balance reason, at least. I let casters spontaneously cast cantrips/orizons (if prepared casters) or know all the cantrips/orizons on their list (if spontaneous) as well.

[Daemon]

Yes... This alway did seem weird to me that as any caster I wouldn't gain bonus spells... With a high casting stat, also with bonuses from items, I would often end up casting more first/second level spells that I could cast 0 level spells.

[Emperor Tippy]

I let casters cast all 0 level spells spontaneously starting at level 5, I also give sorcerers all 0 level spells as spells known at level 5. In addition I allow wizards to trade in a level 1 spell slot for 2 level 0 spell slots (but this trade must be made when they prepare spells in the morning).

[ZeroNumerous]

Honestly, once you get higher than 4 HD(Daze) then most 0 levels are for fun or jokes. Getting bonus 0 levels would just mean more uses of Prestidigitation to turn the Cleric's vestaments purple.

[Ramza00]

Honestly starting level 5 or so you can allow your party casters to cast all the 0th lvl spells indefinatetly with the exception of Cure Minor Wounds. All the damage spells do so low damage a crossbow bolt does more. You can have some minor create water which does effectively nothing unless you are in a desert. Guidance isn't so bad besides the fact that if in battle you wasted a round, thus only +1 to skill check. Detect Magic is in the debatable should you allow it just for after battle magic item identifying, given a few more levels though and all the items you encounter will be magic so you don't save anything.

So allow it, it won't skew the balance any. Now certain spells are a much bigger problem balance wise.

[Neek]

I normally run with a house rule on cantrips. I really don't think it's realistic that the most basic spells, such as prestidigitation or detect magic, even require preparation beforehand. I rule that cantrips are pretty much simple enough that any caster worth his salt can churn these little things out a near-infinitesimal times a day without preparation. The only limit is where I say, "You've cast it way too much... knock it off."

[Catharsis]

Just for the record... infinitesimal means "incredibly small".

As for balance, you can't really hurt balance with 0 level spells. Grant spontaneous cantrips to Wizards, and allow Sorcerers to have one 0-level spell as an at-will Su ability. Prestidigitation for a commercial illusionist, detect magic for an adventurer...

Oh, and for $deity's sake, give out Eschew Materials to Sorcerers at 1st level -- the class flavor just begs for that. A sorcerer's magic is supposed to be innate and intuitive, not based on little tarts you throw at foes to make them laugh.

[Dausuul]

Honestly, once you get higher than 4 HD(Daze) then most 0 levels are for fun or jokes. Getting bonus 0 levels would just mean more uses of Prestidigitation to turn the Cleric's vestaments purple.

...or detect magic so you know which of the loot is worth hauling out of the dungeon; or light so the humans in the party can see; or cure minor wounds to stabilize a dying comrade, or top off a character who's not hurt badly enough to justify a cure light.

Those are the 0-level spells that see frequent use in most of the games I play in. Detect magic especially gets quite a workout.

[Emperor Tippy]

Detect magic should be made permanent for the 500 XP it costs.

[Person_Man]

There are a few combos which work well with 0 level spells, such as Stormcaster and/or Born of Nine Thunders. They basically add powerful effects to all energy spells, regardless of level.

Also, giving casters bonus 0 level spells just makes them slightly more powerful. Why would you want to make the most powerful classes in the game even more unbalanced? A 1st level Wizard may seem a bit fragile, but only if he doesn't have access to Charm Person, Sleep, Grease, and any of the useful supplements that let Wizards trade out their familiar for a variety of abilities. And even if he doesn't, I belong to the school of thought that Wizards should have to pay for their later god-like abilities by having their weaker state at lower levels.

[Ivius]

But you do get bonus 0 level spells. At about 340 in your casting stat.

[Corolinth]

Because honestly, how many more detect magics or cure minor wounds do you really need per day?

[Kurald Galain]

And mage hand. Also very cool. It just adds flavor to a mid-level (say 5 to 9) wizard to be able to light candles at a finger snap.

[LotharBot]

The houserule I use is that, whatever your prime stat bonus is, that's how many bonus zero-level spells you get. A 20-int wizard (+5 bonus) gets 5 bonus zero level spells, while a 27-wis cleric (+8 bonus) gets 8 bonus zero level spells. I figure it's enough to allow some interesting options with those spells (the wizard is far more likely to use mage hand or similar spells) but not enough to turn silly (the cleric healing you with 29 consecutive 0-level spells).

EDIT: in theory, this does make casters more powerful... but really, IMO, it just gives them flavor. If a caster resorts to using a zero-level spell in any actual combat situation after character level 2, they're holding back. What this really does is adds mostly out-of-combat interest to those characters. While the rogue is busy making a skill check, the wizard is helping and/or pilfering things from across the room with mage hand.

[psychoticbarber]

I just give arcane casters Prestidigitation at will at 5th level. That's really all the extra flavour I think they need.

[Grrosgor]

As for balance, you can't really hurt balance with 0 level spells. Grant spontaneous cantrips to Wizards, and allow Sorcerers to have one 0-level spell as an at-will Su ability. Prestidigitation for a commercial illusionist, detect magic for an adventurer...

OH YES PLEASE!

You've got to be a little carefull here. Where a 0 level spell is pretty hopeless to a high level spell caster, multi-classed charcaters can abuse it.

For instance, if my Rogue 7/Sorcerer 1 could cast Ray of Frost as a Su all day he could then also cast Grease 3-4 times per day and every Ray would do 4d6 sneak attack damage for each target trying to balance in the grease!

Combine that with Practiced Spell caster and that could start to get seriously out of hand quickly.

EDIT: while talking about low level spells, has anyone got any other interesting or powerful combinations for 0 or 1st level spells?

Cheers
Grrosgor

[Vuzzmop]

I wouldn't let wizards or other preparing spellcasters do it, but I let warlocks cast a number of cantrips equal to their cha modifier as invocations.

[goat]

One sorcerer with unlimited use of mending could probably make a killing with a small repair shop in a big city.

[Kurald Galain]

One sorcerer with unlimited use of mending could probably make a killing with a small repair shop in a big city.

OR he could travel the country, have exciting adventures, meet interesting new people, and kill them! That'd make him a lot more money, not to mention XP.

[Dausuul]

Detect magic should be made permanent for the 500 XP it costs.

As a caster, by the time I get access to permanency, running out of detect magic is not usually a problem. I'd rather keep the XP and get to sixth-level spells that much sooner... especially considering the risk of having the investment wiped out by an errant dispel magic.

Extra uses of detect magic are nice, but far from vital. Of course, I tend to play spontaneous casters, which makes it easier to burn a 1st-level spell if I just have to get that one last detect in before going to bed.

[Dervag]

I normally run with a house rule on cantrips. I really don't think it's realistic that the most basic spells, such as prestidigitation or detect magic, even require preparation beforehand. I rule that cantrips are pretty much simple enough that any caster worth his salt can churn these little things out a near-infinitesimal times a day without preparation. The only limit is where I say, "You've cast it way too much... knock it off."

The problem is that there are a few of them (like cure minor wounds) that can actually get unbalanced. So having a legal limit probably makes sense.

I think the idea of making them spontaneous for prepared casters is good enough. Giving them unlimited castings (or castings limited only by DM fiat) takes it a little two far.

Oh, and I sincerely hope you meant "infinite number of times a day", because otherwise my post is totally off base, since "infinitesimal number of times a day" doesn't present any problems at all.

OR he could travel the country, have exciting adventures, meet interesting new people, and kill them! That'd make him a lot more money, not to mention XP.

Yes, but there's always the risk that the interesting new people will beat him to the draw.

People who merely want to be happy and rich don't go adventuring because there are ways for even low-level members of PC classes to prosper without adventuring.

People who want to pick fights with huge ferocious man-eating monsters do so. Some of them come back, more powerful for the experience.

Also, people in the universe of D&D don't understand experience points, for the very logical reason that it makes no sense whatsoever and is very difficult to isolate as an important factor. To borrow an observation from OotS, there is no logical reason why killing orcs should make you better at lockpicking.

As for the 'assassins' thing, it's possible but not all that likely. Assassins will probably charge high fees to go after wizards; tolerating a competitor whose sole business is repairing broken goods may well be cheaper and a lot safer than trying to knock him off.

[lukelightning]

One sorcerer with unlimited use of mending could probably make a killing with a small repair shop in a big city.

Watch out! Everytime someone posts a "make money through spellcasting" plan on the boards, a lot of people insist that a local guild will send assassins after the character.

[Falrin]

I give all casters their casting stat in 0th LvL Spells. Also they get them all at will. It hasn't been a problem so far. It's much more fun when you can use a Mage Hand when you feel like it instead of the same old Detect Magic 4/Day.

[Neek]

The problem is that there are a few of them (like cure minor wounds) that can actually get unbalanced. So having a legal limit probably makes sense.

I think the idea of making them spontaneous for prepared casters is good enough. Giving them unlimited castings (or castings limited only by DM fiat) takes it a little two far.

Oh, and I sincerely hope you meant "infinite number of times a day", because otherwise my post is totally off base, since "infinitesimal number of times a day" doesn't present any problems at all.

That's a quantum difference! (Yes, I realize after I posted what infinitesimal means, sometimes typos aren't just misplaced letters...)

Anyway, in the games that I play, the DM fiat has worked quite well without there being any abuse issues. I can't guarantee anyone else will have the same luck. Otherwise, I like the Int modifier rule if it comes up to an issue of balance.

[Sornjss Lichdom]

The only problem with making detect magic at will, u'll totaly eilimante the need for permancy, which is always fun to c put to use.

[Roog]

Also, people in the universe of D&D don't understand experience points, for the very logical reason that it makes no sense whatsoever and is very difficult to isolate as an important factor. To borrow an observation from OotS, there is no logical reason why killing orcs should make you better at lockpicking.

No logical reason in our World, but remember the game world is not or World.

For example practice lockpicking a lot - no improvement beyond a certain point
The go and kill some orcs - now lockpicking improves

If you try to apply real life sense you have situations like:
A character with no free skill points desides to stop where he is and learn a new language he needs. Before retraining (PHB2) came along (2006) he would not be able to learn that language however hard he tried.

Sometimes RL common sense clashes with game mechanics. There are several ways to handle this but all of them don't work for some people.
1: Force the character to use real life common sense (even if it doesn't work).
2: Metagame the problem away.
3: RL common sense =/= game world common sense. (E.g. killing orcs helps you learn; great heros can perform amazing deeds reliably, like falling from the sky, getting up, and walking away; if you have trouble getting through some ones armour, then power attacking for a harder hit will not help; etc.)

[Ramza00]

OH YES PLEASE!

You've got to be a little carefull here. Where a 0 level spell is pretty hopeless to a high level spell caster, multi-classed charcaters can abuse it.

For instance, if my Rogue 7/Sorcerer 1 could cast Ray of Frost as a Su all day he could then also cast Grease 3-4 times per day and every Ray would do 4d6 sneak attack damage for each target trying to balance in the grease!

Combine that with Practiced Spell caster and that could start to get seriously out of hand quickly.

EDIT: while talking about low level spells, has anyone got any other interesting or powerful combinations for 0 or 1st level spells?

Cheers
Grrosgor

And you are doing comparable damage to a warlock or a person with a reserve feat. Do I need to repeat the rational why this is not as good as it sounds?

[Peregrine]

Even cure minor wounds isn't so bad, at high enough levels. You can only heal one HP per round, ten HP a minute, 60 HP an hour. Across a four-person party, it averages out to 15 HP per person per hour. That's not too spectacular...

Perhaps if you had a use limit other than x/day on otherwise infinite cantrips and orisons? Maybe 1/hour?

[TheOOB]

I allow all spellcasters to use detect magic, read magic, light, and cure minor wounds(divine), or mage hand(arcane) as spell-like abilities usable a combined number of times per day equal to 3 + their spellcasting ability mod (similar to the duskblade arcane channeling ability). In addition any caster capable of casting 2nd level spells (arcane or divine) is under the constant effect of prestidigitation.

The idea is that any caster just learns certain spells that they can use without needed to prepare them, they are the essential building blocks of their craft. In addition any magician of any power can perform minor magical effects constantly with no ill effects.