Interesting Sorceror implication

[Talya]

Corolinth pointed this out to me. Read carefully:

A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list... These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.

The implication here, is that the sorceror can invade the spell lists of other classes for their selection, with DM approval and appropriate fluff reasoning, don't you think?

[brian c]

Spontaneous arcane healing for the win!

Seriously though, I've never noticed that. It would open up some very interesting options for the Sorc, such as healing and Cleric-style buffs

[Tellah]

It's a nod to the ability of all spell-casting classes to research new spells, given DM approval. If your DM wants to let you research Lesser Restoration, he's certainly entitled to do so.

[Fizban]

What Tellah said.

[SolkaTruesilver]

What Tellah said.

I don't understand something. If he already said it, then why say "what he said"?

[Corolinth]

It was my brother that pointed it out to me, due to the nature of our tabletop campaign (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft with no cleric or other divine caster).

I'm undecided on the matter currently, but it arose because their sorcerer has a wand of cure light wounds (that I suggested someone in the party purchase at character creation), and I later reread the requirements for spell trigger items and discovered that technically, the sorcerer can't activate the wand. My players have been trying to devise ways in which he could legitimately activate the wand (multiclass a level of bard, for example), but I told them not to worry about it for this particular wand because if it comes to it, we can just say it's been the party ranger activating the wand.

Anyhow, another point of consideration is that sorcerers supposedly have their magical prowess through some sort of draconic ancestor numerous generations back. Many dragons, if you read their monster entries, are able to pull their spells from the cleric list, as well as several domains.

[brian c]

Well, if you read Complete Champion, there's a class feature variant for Sorcerers that lets them have access to a cleric Domain. Take the Healing domain, and *poof*- arcane Cure Light Wounds.

[Dan_Hemmens]

I don't understand something. If he already said it, then why say "what he said"?

Because people frequently disregard single posts, whereas a post which has several people backing it up is more likely to get people's attention. Furthermore, a post which only gets a single reply quickly drops to the bottom of the forum, so the initial post, in which somebody else says what you were going to say, never gets read.

[Yechezkiel]

"A sorcerer casts arcane spells"

[SolkaTruesilver]

look carefully in the scroll spell list, in the DMG.

You will find "Cure Light Wound" as Arcane spell

[Tobrecan]

look carefully in the scroll spell list, in the DMG.

You will find "Cure Light Wound" as Arcane spell

Thats because it's on the Bard's spell list

[Draz74]

True, but it's an excellent demonstration of how a spell that is normally thought of as Divine can have an Arcane version, and therefore can be researched in Arcane form by a Sorcerer (with DM approval). Even a healing spell.

[Sornjss Lichdom]

ya alot of this is interisting ill hav to bring it up to my DM, a restoration spell would come in handy if, lets c ur party cleric goes and buys the farm, kicks the can, bites the dust, starts pushing up daisy's, or imprisioned by the evil lich that just teleported from his campign of death and torment.

[SensFan]

You all do realise that Wizards have equal access to Cure spells as sorcerers, right?

[brian c]

"A sorcerer casts arcane spells"

All that means is that any spell cast by a sorcerer count as an "arcane spell". D&D does not split up spells by type between divine and arcane, only by spell lists. Some spells are on the Sorcerer/Wizard and Cleric spell lists, so they can be arcane or divine. If a Sorcerer casts something that is normally a Cleric spell, he casts it as an arcane spell, meaning there is spell failure chance from armor.

The Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror) is an example of this dichotomy with arcane/divine spells. They can learn any spell within the Necromancy school through their Advanced Learning class ability, but even if it is a Cleric spell, they cast spells as Arcane. For example, a Dread Necromancer could learn Deathwatch, and cast it as an arcane spell.

[Corolinth]

"A sorcerer casts arcane spells"

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Go over the spell lists. Pick out how many sorcerer/wizards spells also appear on either the cleric or druid spell lists. Look over the cleric domains, and count up all of the spells that also appear on the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

[Sornjss Lichdom]

Ya arcane jsust meens u get ur magic from the weave, and divine meens u get it from some pompus, self worshiping, completely vain, deity. it doesnt clasify the type of spell being used. RE-READ ur details

[Ivius]

"A sorcerer casts arcane spells"

An Archivist casts divine spells, but all of em' probably have at least a few arcane spells from domains.

[Tallis]

Because people frequently disregard single posts, whereas a post which has several people backing it up is more likely to get people's attention. Furthermore, a post which only gets a single reply quickly drops to the bottom of the forum, so the initial post, in which somebody else says what you were going to say, never gets read.

Yeah, what he said.

[Zeful]

You all do realise that Wizards have equal access to Cure spells as sorcerers, right?

Not really as the srd says:

A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A wizard must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time.

While Sorcerers, having innate arcane powers can learn spells from outside(given DM approval under the OPs quote) the Sor/Wiz spells, the wizard cannot learn spells from outside the spell lists. And any new spell any wizard coms up with that does not deal with prepared spells (Mnemonic Enhancer and the like) a Sorcerer that can cast that level of spell can learn that spell.

In short there is almost nothing a wizard can do that a Sorcerer can't, while a Sorcerer can do things a wizard can't. If the OPs interpritation of that phrase is correct.

[Demented]

Unfortunately for Sorcerors, they're still stuck with that nagging "known spells" limitation.

[Missing Shoe]

Huh.....

Thats all I can really say. I cant believe I've played so long and never have noticed that.

Good catch. (for everyone who has noticed this before me)

[RandomNPC]

i've noticed it, but i never really thought about it.... i thought it was more around the idea of a wizard researching new spells.

but the idea of getting healing spells and the like makes sense, and if a sorc. had a few healing scrolls, and a cleric to poke with a *stick, it would work out wouldn't it?

* read "poke with a stick" as "ask questions" or "study over the shoulder of" or something like that.

[Yechezkiel]

*shrug* If that was the intent, why did they bother with the Favored Soul? This is a stretch to me, but everything is and if you can't argue an interpretation you'll argue the RAW for it.

[SensFan]

Not really as the srd says:



While Sorcerers, having innate arcane powers can learn spells from outside(given DM approval under the OPs quote) the Sor/Wiz spells, the wizard cannot learn spells from outside the spell lists. And any new spell any wizard coms up with that does not deal with prepared spells (Mnemonic Enhancer and the like) a Sorcerer that can cast that level of spell can learn that spell.

In short there is almost nothing a wizard can do that a Sorcerer can't, while a Sorcerer can do things a wizard can't. If the OPs interpritation of that phrase is correct.

I don't know where its written (pretty sure its in the DMG somewhere), Wizards have equal oppertunities when it comes to researching new spells, subjet to DM approval, obviously.

[Corolinth]

Wizards are expected to be the primary source of new spells written. That's why there are more sorcerer/wizard spells than any other class (and perhaps more than all other core classes combined).

As for the reason why there's a favored soul class, that's an interesting question. I imagine it has to do with the miniatures game, because the class first appeared in the Miniature's Handbook. Later on, somebody decided Complete Divine wouldn't sell without new base classes, and so it got thrown in. Do realize, there's significant differences between the favored soul and the sorcerer. For one, there's the armor interfering with arcane spellcasting thing. Then there's BAB progression, hit point tables, saves (haven't checked that), and skill lists. Also the various different class features that favored souls get as they level.

Furthermore, the passage in the PH doesn't state that the sorcerer is able to learn spells from any spell list with study. Only a fool would jump to that conclusion by reading the vague insinuation in the sorcerer class description. What it does is suggest a vehicle whereby the sorcerer can learn a spell he really wants but is not explicitly granted access to through the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

Here are relevent bits from the conversation that sparked this topic. Talya caught wind of it when I went to her for feedback (since she's playing a sorceress in another campaign I run, and has been badgering me for months to add more divine flavor to her character).

(12:08:57 PM) Coro's Brother: You know, there's an interesting implication to the Sorcerer. If you read the Spells section of the sorcerer class, it implies that it's possible to select spells outside of the sorcerer/wizard list, if some prior study is done.

(12:09:11 PM) Corolinth: Well, dragons can cast cleric spells.

(12:09:46 PM) Coro's Brother: Yeah, I think that's a little bit different scenario, though.

(12:10:05 PM) Corolinth: Sorcerers are supposed to have dragon blood, presumably.

(12:10:52 PM) Coro's Brother: Well, or some sort of closer-to-the-mystic-forces-than-normal ancestry.
(12:17:15 PM) Coro's Brother: Yeah, descriptions for dragons don't say anything about them needing to study anything.

(12:17:36 PM) Corolinth: Right, they just get spells because they're dragons.
(12:17:39 PM) Corolinth: "Hi, I'm a dragon."

(12:18:59 PM) Coro's Brother: But anyway, what I was leading up to, if you tell Robert to drop a couple of points into Knowledge(Religion), at 8th level he could swap a 1st level spell out for cure light wounds. Then it would be on his list and he could use wands of it.

(12:19:24 PM) Corolinth: This is an interesting concept.

(12:21:38 PM) Coro's Brother: Or drop a couple points into Heal. Either way, they're cross-class for a sorcerer. And if he was interested in any other divine spells, you could come up with skill requirements for most of them, probably.

(12:21:56 PM) Corolinth: I could look in to it.
(12:27:25 PM) Corolinth: By that notion, I could just let him use the wand anyway.

(12:29:04 PM) Coro's Brother: Well, that part is up to you. "Study" is not well-defined.

(12:29:12 PM) Corolinth: Yes, that's one of those DM fiat things.
(12:29:34 PM) Corolinth: However I think unusual spells is supposed to be along the lines of wizards creating their own spells.

(12:34:04 PM) Coro's Brother: Well, that is definitely the case. If I remember correctly, the Symbul of Aglarond is an epic sorceress who has devised some spells of her own. They're still arcane spells, and although unusual, can be reproduced by wizards now that she's brought them into existence. With the fact that dragons can sometimes have divine spells on their known list, the case can be made that with sufficient "study", a sorcerer can duplicate that.

(12:34:18 PM) Corolinth: Right.

(12:38:17 PM) Coro's Brother: For myself, I would be of the school of thought that says,"Okay, you want this spell which is not on the sorcerer/wizard list. Here are the skill disbursements you will need to make to justify that." That way there's actually an impact to the character.
(12:38:45 PM) Coro's Brother: Or potentially finding a feat that they would need to have.

(12:39:08 PM) Corolinth: Either that or forcing the character, through appropriate roleplaying, to research the spell.

[God_of_Luck]

There was a discussion some time ago on the WotC. Can't find the link, though.

It was concluded that it refers to the fact that a sorcerer does not learn only spells like Fireball but other arcane spells (on the Sorc/Wiz list) that have its creator in its name like Mordenkainen's Disjunction or Tasha's Hideous Laughter.

If there was a party with a Wizard and a Sorcerer, the later could learn a spell the Wiz created.

[Gavin Sage]

That's a serious bending of the rules based on a few words without any sort of established mechanic to put it into play. Therefore is amounts to DM discretion if you want to try that on them. Personally the only thing close it might give would be you can learn custom spells. Which would be cool but goes right into DM discretion as well. And even then its spliting hairs, which the rules really aren't written for.

[Jack_Simth]

It's a nod to the ability of all spell-casting classes to research new spells, given DM approval. If your DM wants to let you research Lesser Restoration, he's certainly entitled to do so.

Is it?

Consider:
For the Sorcerer, it's "A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list." (Emphasis added).
For the Bard, it's "A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list." - no Primarily, changes the class and spell list name, but otherwise the same sentence as in the Sorcerer entry.
For the Cleric, it's "A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list." - no Primarily, changes the class and spell list name, but otherwise the same sentence as in the Sorcerer entry.
For the Druid, it's "A druid casts divine spells, which are drawn from the druid spell list." - no Primarily, changes the class and spell list name, but otherwise the same sentence as in the Sorcerer entry.
For the Paladin, it's "Beginning at 4th level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list. " - no Primarily, changes the class and spell list name, and adds a level restriction, but otherwise the same sentence as in the Sorcerer entry.
For the Ranger, it's "Beginning at 4th level, a ranger gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the ranger spell list." - no Primarily, changes the class and spell list name, and adds a level restriction, but otherwise the same sentence as in the Sorcerer entry.
For the Wizard, it's "A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/ wizard spell list." - no Primarily, changes the class and spell list name, but otherwise the same sentence as in the Sorcerer entry.

The Sorcerer's spell casting entry includes a sentence: "These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study." - this sentence does not have a cognate in the other Core spellcasting classes (including the only other spontaneous caster - the Bard).

Text quotes above this line are all from the SRD, for convenience of copying. The next set, unfortunately, is not in the SRD, but from my copy of the 3.5 PHB.

If you open up your Player's Handbook to page 178, at the end of the page, it starts going over adding spells to a Wizard's spellbook. Sub-headings are "Spells Gained at a New Level", "Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll", and "Independent Research". On page 180, for Divine spells, there's two headings under "New Divine Spells": "Spells Gained at a New Level" and "Independent Research".

In that same section, on page 179, it goes over addings spells to a Sorcerer or Bard... and it is markedly different for adding new spells to the other classes:

Adding Spells to a Sorcerer's or Bard's Repertoire: A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table 3-5: Bard spells Known or Table 3-17: Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list in Chapter 11: Spells he now knows. With the DM's permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of (see Spells in the sorcerer description, page 54).
For instance, when Hennet the sorcerer becomes 2nd level, he gains an additional 0-level spell. He can pick that spell from the 0-level spells on the sorcerer and wizard spell list, or he might have learned an unusual spell from an arcane scroll or spellbook.

(Bold original; Underline added; I may have made a handful of copy-errors, but they are going to be minor typos and misspellings only - go read it yourself if you don't believe me)

Other than the issue that it lists no mechanics for "some understanding" it's actually kinda cut and dry, both from the word choice itself and the distinct difference from other spell casting classes.

[TheOOB]

Also keep in mind that the sorcerer and wizard spell lists are not identical. There is at least one spell in core that is wizard only (mordenkienens lubrication if I am correct), and there may be others.