Kelemvor: Going Into the Light

[Millstone85]

Another player is keeping his cleric of Kelemvor as we move from 4e to 5e.

I have been trying to convince him that the god of death should have the death domain, perhaps with a few minor tweaks to reflect Kelemvor's view that death is a part of life but undeath is a mockery of both.

My efforts seem to be in vain. It is clear now that he doesn't want to see the word necromancy anywhere on his character sheet. This includes spells that deal necrotic damage, spells that just interrogate the dead and spells that bring you back to actual life.

Instead, he picked the domain of light. As the tile of this thread shows, I don't find the idea to be that absurd.

For inspiration (IRL, not the game mechanic) that I might relay to him, what is your opinion on this?

[DragonSorcererX]

Another player is keeping his cleric of Kelemvor as we move from 4e to 5e.

I have been trying to convince him that the god of death should have the death domain, perhaps with a few minor tweaks to reflect Kelemvor's view that death is a part of life but undeath is a mockery of both.

My efforts seem to be in vain. It is clear now that he doesn't want to see the word necromancy anywhere on his character sheet. This includes spells that deal necrotic damage, spells that just interrogate the dead and spells that bring you back to actual life.

Instead, he picked the domain of light. As the tile of this thread shows, I don't find the idea to be that absurd.

For inspiration (IRL, not the game mechanic) that I might relay to him, what is your opinion on this?

Both PHB and SCAG says that his domain is Death. To make him feel more like an anti-necromancer you can take Animate Dead out of his domain and give him other spell like Revivify.

[Millstone85]

Both PHB and SCAG says that his domain is Death.

And my friend was very disappointed when he realized that this domain is nowhere to be found in either book. I told him about the DMG and I tried my best against the stupid "hidden option for eeeeeviiiiil characters" description. It did not work.

To make him feel more like an anti-necromancer you can take Animate Dead out of his domain and give him other spell like Revivify.

Like I said, in his character's view, spells that bring you back to actual life are as bad as spells that bring the undead. I did suggest replacing animate dead with speak with dead, something that appeared to catch his interest at the time.

But it doesn't matter anymore because now he seems to reject necromancy and necrotic energy as a whole.

[Corran]

I agree with your friend. Death domain does seem a bit awkward for a cleric of Kelemvor imo too. But I dont see how light domain fits any better. If it were me, I would go with the life domain. Trying to save people from untimely death, trying to help those whose time has not yet come.

[DragonSorcererX]

I agree with your friend. Death domain does seem a bit awkward for a cleric of Kelemvor imo too. But I dont see how light domain fits any better. If it were me, I would go with the life domain. Trying to save people from untimely death, trying to help those whose time has not yet come.

I think this is the "fight fire with fire" thing.

But it doesn't matter anymore because now he seems to reject necromancy and necrotic energy as a whole.

You could do a retcon on your campaign and say that he worshipped Lathander or Amaunator since the beginning or give Kelemvor the Light domain (his scribe, Jergal, has two domains why can't he have two?).

[uraniumrooster]

I agree with your friend. Death domain does seem a bit awkward for a cleric of Kelemvor imo too. But I dont see how light domain fits any better. If it were me, I would go with the life domain. Trying to save people from untimely death, trying to help those whose time has not yet come.

I second this. The DMG Death domain doesn't work well for Kelemvor, as it seems more appropriate for followers of a malicious death deity like Myrkul, who would be willing to create and control undead rather than seeking to destroy them outright. I wish they'd just included a more neutral Death domain in the PHB that would work for cyclical death deities like Kelemvor or Urogalan, but alas.

I also agree that Light doesn't seem to fit with Kelemvor either. It would help them kill the undead, I suppose, but I don't really see his clerics as radiant beacons slinging fireballs around. I picture them being more martially inclined, since Kelemvor was a fighter before he became a god. I'd also lean toward Life, and I think War would be a good fit as well (for its abilities, if not its fluff... spin it as a cleric who is waging war against the undead, and it works alright though).

Alternately, I think a Vengeance Paladin would make an excellent Doomguide of Kelemvor, although it might not make for a totally accurate port of the original 4e character.

[Ace Jackson]

Let me just preface this post by saying I'm not entirely sure what you are looking for here. You say,

"Instead, he picked the domain of light. As the tile of this thread shows, I don't find the idea to be that absurd.

For inspiration (IRL, not the game mechanic) that I might relay to him, what is your opinion on this?"

Which could read as you checking to see if the idea of a cleric of Kelemvor with the powers of the domain of light is alright, something you've already said you are fine with, or you could be looking for referential materials for a cultural take on a god of death to soften your player up to the idea of a death domain in general, but will be ok with things if you can't find any. These represent the two extremes I can see, and your meaning could be either, something in between, or entirely different. I don't know for sure. Additionally, you say "Another player" is porting a cleric of kelemvor from 4e to 5e, this might be a typo with you as DM talking about "A" player, or it might be read as you being a player and another player of your group is porting. I am going with the assumption that you are the DM. With that out of the way, here are some of my thoughts.

I wouldn't fight him too much on this. The cleric-diety-domain links can be helpful for a shorthand RP informing, like alignment, but when you start getting bent out of shape over it, it has more than served its purpose and it's time to move on. The "domain" as it is in 5e is really only a power kit, it doesn't reflect into lore directly, and if the player wants the blaster-lite package, I say let him have it. The character serves a deity, and is likely passably familiar with the deity's customs (though I am stickler for that and personally house rule every cleric, unless specifically requested not to by the player, presume proficiency in religion for any check the cleric makes regarding his own deity's order.), the deity just decided that this servant of his would have a different set of powers to display his ideals in a different way than usual. Who's going to impeach either the deity or the cleric in game universe? If you answered that the order would impeach the cleric, than that sounds like either a plot note that could be interesting if the player agrees to play that out, or something you as the DM do have the power to hand wave away and ignore.

On the other hand, if you do want to negotiate with him, ask him what he sees in the light domain that reflects the concept of a god of death, and do remember there are many, many different cultural takes on the subject around the world as it is, perhaps he actually already has a particular cultural interpretation in mind. If he doesn't, then just haggle, ask him why in particular he is adverse to the concept of the death domain entirely. Maybe he isn't, maybe he'd be willing to work with you to just tweak a few abilities, you holding veto power of course.

For example, I might trade out the necromany school for evocation on "Reaper" allow him to change "touch of death" out for a CD lay on hands type deal, or other CD from a domain as he reskins, swap inescapable destruction for an elemental adept of radiant damage (as few undead have resistance to radiant anyway, the treat 1s as 2s aspect shouldn't be too imbalanced as compared.) divine strike either becomes radiant or potent spell casting as he chooses, improved reaper is redefined for evocation, and just let him pick his domain spells, expect a reasoning and exercise your veto if you need to, and then let him pick from another precompiled domain spell list if you do need to veto, but let him invest and explain his reasoning. It will help him RP if he knows why and how what he picked fits the theme of death. And yes, that theme of death is also something you should both discuss and pin down.

It's a little funny, often times the cry on here is "Talk to your DM." but here I am, advocating talking more thoroughly with the player.

Bottom line, it doesn't matter one bit what a bunch of us online think, do what's best for your table and best by you. You're the one who will run it after all, not us. If that means saying yes to your player, cool, if that means saying no to your player, cool. No skin off your back, no skin off ours.

[Sigreid]

Eh, if it makes him happy perhaps while being a cleric of Kelemvor, he's not actually drawing his domain abilities from Kelemvor, but Kele has sub-contracted to an allied deity to power his boy. You could metagame justify it as Kelemvor is getting real tired of BBEG Necromancer's garbage and has taken the time to develop the "cure".

[MeeposFire]

Both PHB and SCAG says that his domain is Death. To make him feel more like an anti-necromancer you can take Animate Dead out of his domain and give him other spell like Revivify.

Revivify is not something I would give to a cleric of Kelemvor. As I recall while he did not absolutely refuse to bring people back to life they did not do so lightly since death was seen as something to not fear and to allow to continue.

An anti undead spell would fit if there is a good option in that way.

[Herobizkit]

Light seems perfectly fine, as Kelemvorites are generally dedicated to the destruction of undead.

5e domains are only suggested domains, not required, unlike previous editions of D&D. Clerics are generally free to choose any domain they wish.

An option I would consider for myself in the same situation would be going Knowledge priest and getting into the study of Necromacy as a lore/science over dealing necrotic damage and animating undead.

[Malifice]

Maybe he's a heretic.

In 3.5 Powers of Faerun they had this feat.

[Herobizkit]

Maybe he's a heretic.

In 3.5 Powers of Faerun they had this feat.

5e Clerics are not required to be within any range/steps of alignment matching their deity. They also suffer no ill effects or special restrictions for doing so. Yay, freedom! ^_^

[Plaguescarred]

For how he envision his Cleric of Kelemvor and how he's against undeads and necrotic energy, i would suggest the Domain of AfterLIFE. The Domain of Life with an accent on the afterlife etc.. could be a good fit, it has a focus on positive energy (radiant as opposed to necrotic) and driving away the forces of death and undeath... It would also reinforce his predicamment against revivication and ressurection, the afterlife being a natural passage of every living being not to be interferred with...

Where this Domain: Life Variant may differ could be in the Domain spells list for level 5 & 9, which could be substituted for something else that would be more appropriate for him thematically. It'd be a relatively small change to have Domain well tailored to him.


Domain of Life: The Life domain focuses on the vibrant positive energy—one of the fundamental forces of the universe—that sustains all life. The gods of life promote vitality and health through healing the sick and wounded, caring for those in need, and driving away the forces of death and undeath.

[Millstone85]

Let me just preface this post by saying I'm not entirely sure what you are looking for here.

Just some brainstorming on Kelemvor with the ligth domain. And maybe I needed to vent a little on 5e's treatment of this god. Sorry if it turns out that it wasn't thread-worthy.

Additionally, you say "Another player" is porting a cleric of kelemvor from 4e to 5e, this might be a typo with you as DM talking about "A" player, or it might be read as you being a player and another player of your group is porting. I am going with the assumption that you are the DM.

I am not the DM, hence the "another player". It is possible that I am overstepping here and I should let him sort this out with our DM. On the other hand, our DM apparently thinks that being a healbot is the whole point of the class and that it is absurd that 5e would let a cleric cast fireball. Why would people want to play a wizard now, he asks. Meanwhile, the other player clearly doesn't want to do much healing. That's why I feel that I should bring my two cents to their discussion.

The DMG Death domain doesn't work well for Kelemvor, as it seems more appropriate for followers of a malicious death deity like Myrkul, who would be willing to create and control undead rather than seeking to destroy them outright. I wish they'd just included a more neutral Death domain in the PHB that would work for cyclical death deities like Kelemvor or Urogalan, but alas.

Yeah, that's annoying. I thought maybe we could make it work with a neutral take on necrotic energy but nope.

I also agree that Light doesn't seem to fit with Kelemvor either. It would help them kill the undead, I suppose, but I don't really see his clerics as radiant beacons slinging fireballs around. I picture them being more martially inclined, since Kelemvor was a fighter before he became a god. I'd also lean toward Life, and I think War would be a good fit as well (for its abilities, if not its fluff... spin it as a cleric who is waging war against the undead, and it works alright though).

Alternately, I think a Vengeance Paladin would make an excellent Doomguide of Kelemvor, although it might not make for a totally accurate port of the original 4e character.

I did tell him that, if the death domain doesn't work, then I think he should go with war. Especially because his character was going to become a doomguide in 4e.

Eh, if it makes him happy perhaps while being a cleric of Kelemvor, he's not actually drawing his domain abilities from Kelemvor, but Kele has sub-contracted to an allied deity to power his boy.

We also considered the tempest domain as an expression of the cleric's own genasi nature.

[Malifice]

5e Clerics are not required to be within any range/steps of alignment matching their deity. They also suffer no ill effects or special restrictions for doing so. Yay, freedom! ^_^

That feat lets them select a different domain.

So you could have a Cleric of Bane with the healing domain for example.

[Ace Jackson]

Alright, the situation is a fair bit clearer. In talking with your DM, I would point out how the hit dice system and rest system, taken with the rather meager selection of healing spells of any note of potency early on suggest that the designers do not agree with the heal bot philosophy, that perhaps the party is expected to know limits and have down time. The medium armor by default with heavy armor and martial weapon options suggest that the class isn't made to hang back and sling stuff forward like most of the casters. The wizard's niche is still safe. They have a much more massive spell list that the DM is allowed to make use of in loot via spell books. The last time clerics had the spell miracle, AKA wish in divine skin, was, to my knowledge, the rules cyclopedia. The most recent UA developments allow the wizard to get the cleric's 17th level ability at 14, plus all the other new materials for wizards, such as spells in the elemental evil player's companion, while clerics have had exactly the same options start to SCAG which, in fairness, introduced the arcana domain, getting wizard specialties in with clerics first. Frankly, fireball for a cleric is a 'meh' option at that point anyway in the face of spiritual guardians which is sustained, slows, and ally friendly if specified.

The philosophy in 5e about the classes is that, for the most part, everyone's got the option to take any position. Some options are more predisposed to certain positions, a barbarian can tank fairly well with a 12 sided hit die, and has subclass options which enable resistance to virtually all damage types while raging for example. Still, my light domain cleric served the party as one of two off tanks for a long time with the highest AC and second highest HP of the group, the other being a fighter who had two less ac and maybe 6 more hp (we were rolling HP). Additionally, a fighter could take the healer feat and become a combative medic, restoring 1d6+4+character level HP per use of healing kit, each kit having ten uses. Far more economic than health potions, and not that far behind a "heal bot" on in and out of combat healing efficiency early on pulling far ahead on in combat use later on. The cleric can be competitive early with cure wounds being 1d8+spellcast mod, and healing word is only 1d4+spellcast mod but has a range of 60 ft and takes one bonus action. still, it's close early on, and the healer feat will pull ahead for in combat use later on, sure "heal" gives a flat 70 healing, but when everyone in combat works at 100% capability until hitting 0 HP, there are far, far better uses for a 6th level spell slot. Remember, a cleric need never heal damage that wasn't taken. The exception to all this being the life domain, who have lots of fiddly boosters for this, including max value dice, allowing them to use lower level spells to greater effects.

Besides that, the bard has magical secrets, and can poach whatever they like from any list, so to follow your DM's apparent reasoning, why would anyone not play a bard? It's not worth getting worked up over. People will play what they'll play regardless.

[RickAllison]

Also, don't forget that the domain of a cleric can be filled by what their deity wants from then rather than their normal purview. My wizard/cleric of the Raven Queen uses Knowledge because she tasked him with scouting out a new world and her ability to extend her reach to that realm's dead.