Divination Question

[Dausuul]

So... a question.

Let's say you're a lich--you can be a sorceror or a favored soul, or even a sorc/FS/mystic theurge if you really want. (No prepared casters, sorry.) You're 20th-level and a specialist in information-gathering, since you are the spymaster for a powerful demon lord. You also have a substantial, but not infinite, number of demons available to you if you need them; anything in the regular Monster Manual, up to and including several balors.

Let's further say that you wish to locate a group of adventurers, somewhere on the same layer of the Abyss as you. Your master wants to wear them down by repeated hit-and-run attacks, giving them no chance to rest; but to do that, he has to know where they are, which is where you come in. They know you're looking for them and are likely to use mind blank, Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion, and other such tricks to evade you and get their much-needed naptime. The magnificent mansion will be the only one on this layer, so you are free to use effects that would let you find "the nearest" MMM entrance.

While your prey can retreat into extradimensional spaces, they cannot actually leave this layer of the Abyss to go to another plane; even dropping a bag of holding into a portable hole or vice versa won't get them loose.

Given all this, what would you do to find them? (Getting into an MMM is not a concern, you can send balors to greater dispel it and then attack the occupants as they tumble out.)

[Emperor Tippy]

Assuming the players are doing everything to frustrate you they just need to cast the MMM inside of a Private Sanctum and no divination will help you find them.

And even if they didn't do that you are searching an infinite plane for a single thing.

Wish is your best bet.

[Dausuul]

Assuming the players are doing everything to frustrate you they just need to cast the MMM inside of a Private Sanctum and no divination will help you find them.

And even if they didn't do that you are searching an infinite plane for a single thing.

Wish is your best bet.

Private sanctum only protects against spells with the (scrying) descriptor. Other divinations work fine... if there is, in fact, another divination that will do the job.

[Emperor Tippy]

Wish.

It is the only way. And even then its iffy. Is that use of wish inline with it's other possible options? You are trying to get the effect of a more powerful divination (srying) spell than exists non epic and search an entire infinite plane.

If you had weeks to work with you may be able to legend lore the location

[Inyssius Tor]

Or you could cast limited wish to duplicate legend lore, and then you wouldn't have to waste a month.

[Corolinth]

Private Sanctum is not a problem.

You use your scrying magic to scry on a place, not a person. When your scrying blanks out because you stumbled into the area of the Private Sanctum, you've just found the PCs.

[Arbitrarity]

Or cast vision, only 100 XP.

[Emperor Tippy]

Or you could cast limited wish to duplicate legend lore, and then you wouldn't have to waste a month.

Hmm. Yes that would do it.

But you still have to get a DM ruling on whether legend lore will help. Considering that I doubt there are any legends about where the players cast MMM today (but who knows, maybe some ancient prophecy or something)

Private Sanctum is not a problem.

You use your scrying magic to scry on a place, not a person. When your scrying blanks out because you stumbled into the area of the Private Sanctum, you've just found the PCs.

What scrying magic are you using to scan every bit of an infinite plane?

Or cast vision, only 100 XP.

That gets around the time problems but you still have to deal with the rest of it.

[Arbitrarity]

Hmmm... can you scry for a mordankainen's private sanctum?

Divination (scrying) spells cannot perceive anything within the area

No, wait, you need scry any location or something.

Hmmm... Contact other plane with some imagination, perhaps.

[Emperor Tippy]

Hmmm... can you scry for a mordankainen's private sanctum?

No, wait, you need scry any location or something.

Well as both Scrying and Greater Scrying need a creature as the target, what spell are you using?

And that still has to deal with the fact that every high level demon shoudl have a private sanctum for hiding in.

[Arbitrarity]

Hmmm... Ok, let's try this line of argument.

The PC's are in the area for a reason. Therefore they must have a goal. This can be discerned with vision, seeing as they are important/legendary. Therefore, narrow it down to the finite area around the goal, which is finite, and set up patrols. Perhaps with telepathic bonds, or another form of instantaneous communication, in case they die instantaneously.

Ok, maybe not . Particularly since PC's are well known for bypassing defences.

Miracle might work. Possibly without XP cost.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Is the layer infinite?

(The Abyss is infinite, but individual layers need not be.)

[Corolinth]

What scrying magic are you using to scan every bit of an infinite plane?

I'm under the impression he's the DM asking for possibilities for a villain, which makes this question somewhat moot. It's not like the villain has absolutely no idea where the PCs were last, and therefore no clue as to how he could narrow down his search.

[PinkysBrain]

Skirting the edges of the rules here ... but if you can find something they killed with a melee weapon you could animate it, magic jar into it and cast discern location to find the weapon (mind blank does nothing for your possessions).

[Arbitrarity]

Think that might work. Another problem is, of course, you can't teleport into an MMM, so your balor's can't get in. Gate, however, gets them in.

"Whaddaya mean 20 balors came into my MMM?! We have it protected from scrying, and everything! Hell, we only killed a lemur yesterday! This isn't CR appropriate at all!!"

[Emperor Tippy]

Skirting the edges of the rules here ... but if you can find something they killed with a melee weapon you could animate it, magic jar into it and cast discern location to find the weapon (mind blank does nothing for your possessions).

With a strict interpretation of mind blank it actually stops all scrying attempts anywhere in the multiverse past, present, and future.

Think that might work. Another problem is, of course, you can't teleport into an MMM, so your balor's can't get in. Gate, however, gets them in.

"Whaddaya mean 20 balors came into my MMM?! We have it protected from scrying, and everything! Hell, we only killed a lemur yesterday! This isn't CR appropriate at all!!"

You can't get into an MMM either. If the MMM caster doesn't invite you in you can't get in no matter what you do (pre-epic).

[ZeroNumerous]

Me? I'd probe the DM for allowing Psionics. If it he does, I get a Psion. This particular Psion is a Seer. He/she happens to be 20th level. This Psion manifests Metafaculty.

I have just found the PCs.

[Kurald Galain]

Can't you plant something on the PCs that would allow you to locate them easier? Sneaky, but possible.

Also, contacting your favorite deity (Augury and so forth) may help.

[Arbitrarity]

Can't you plant something on the PCs that would allow you to locate them easier? Sneaky, but possible.

Also, contacting your favorite deity (Augury and so forth) may help.

How do you plant something on people when you don't know where they are?

I discern location the dirt on their boots! I touched it!

[Raum]

Frankly, I think spies are a better solution than magic in this case. There aren't going to be all that many humanoids wandering around after all, so rumors of random encounters with some extraplanar humans should stand out. Once the correct set of rumors is tracked down, have the group followed by two or three separate spies (or groups of spies) who avoid notice if possible and run from combat if noticed. The spies can feed information back to whomever is coordinating the harassment attacks.

[PinkysBrain]

With a strict interpretation of mind blank it actually stops all scrying attempts anywhere in the multiverse past, present, and future.

There is no truth in language, strictly interpreted or otherwise. Besides, I didn't mention any spell of the scrying subschool.

[Dausuul]

Thanks for all the ideas, everyone! A few clarifications...

Yes, I'm the DM, contemplating strategies against a high-level bunch of PCs, capabilities as yet unknown--the characters haven't been made yet--but probably highly paranoid, since they know me. I could of course simply give the lich a +5 Plot Device of Divination, but I'd rather do this within the rules... it's more fun to make it a duel of wits between the party and the BBEG's lieutenant. Since the lich has centuries of experience in dealing with this kind of thing, I figure I'm justified in consulting the clever folks on the forum for suggestions.

The size of the layer: Finite but quite large. Certainly much too large to scry the whole thing without some way to narrow it down, and probably too large to patrol the entire layer reliably.

Rulings on mind blank: I would say that mind blank wards you and any object you are carrying, so no discern location on their inventory. Otherwise the scrying protections of mind blank would be largely useless, since you could see all of the subject's clothes and gear hovering in midair. Moreover, magic jar into a dead creature would not count as having touched the weapon that killed it.

No psionics, sorry.

The most likely scenario for the PCs to come to the lich's attention is after they kill some powerful denizen of the layer; he keeps tabs on all such creatures, so he'll become aware shortly after it happens. He can probably figure out their goals, so he can lay traps for them, but he doesn't want to have to wait passively--he'd rather take the fight to them if he can. As I said, the goal is to harry them with hit-and-run tactics so they can't sleep and regain spells. (I find adventures are a lot more exciting when resources are running low and the pressure is on.)

As I mentioned earlier, getting into the MMM once it's located isn't an issue. I'd rule that greater dispel on the entrance will end the spell and dump anyone inside the mansion onto the ground where the entrance was. Since balors have greater dispel at will, they can easily haul the PCs out of their mansion if they can only locate the entrance to begin with.

Planting some kind of magical "homing beacon" on them (by going to their next likely target and leaving the beacon there, disguised as loot or some such) might be possible and sounds like a promising approach. While mind blank stops attempts to divine information about the subject by magic, I'd say it wouldn't stop a beacon from transmitting its own location. The next question if using this method, of course, would be what to disguise the beacon as... and how to keep the party from figuring out what it is and ditching it.

Spies are also feasible, but only if they have a way to follow the PCs when they teleport. It's possible to teleport within the layer, subject to certain restrictions... just not out of it.

[ZeroNumerous]

My suggestion: Arcane Mark + Magic Aura(None) on a gold(or copper) coin held by Devil Number 24382. Let him die. They loot his corpse. You now have a beacon.

[Falrin]

Could you get a traiter inside the group? You can drop small signs at the entrence off the MM to make it clear where to dispel.

A doppleganger, Shapechanging Demon, a Human going for money, ...