Best Gestalt Were-Critter?

[ClericofPhwarrr]

I'm about to be in a level 8 gestalt game, and just got it into my head that I should be a natural lycanthrope on one side. We're allowed all books, and the DM has ruled that LA/HD take only the one side of the progression. [Edit:] Almost forgot, stats (rolled) are 16, 16, 16, 15, 14, 7, to be arranged.

So, for a melee character, which were-creature is worth the HD? Leopard looks like it gives good abilities for the 3 HD. The badger is nice and cheap, but an uncontrolled rage (actually, anything uncontrollable) isn't appealing. The bear and tiger seem a bit expensive in terms of HD, and there's the problem with breaking armor.

I'm thinking of continuing the lycanthrope side with the Warshaper PrC for even more benefits while shifted. For the other side, Swordsage or Psychic Warrior (I'd ask my DM to let the psionic claws stack with the natural ones) look like they'd make good use of the Wisdom bonus; however, I realize a full BAB class might be a better choice (Crusader, maybe?). Advice on this is also appreciated.

[Lemur]

Leopard, or maybe black bear, seem like the best normal choices for a medium sized animal to me as well. There are more far out options, like desmodu hunting bats, if that sort of thing would fly. Pun intended.

[Emperor Tippy]

Leopard, Cheetah, and Eagle are the best choices. Eagle gets you flight for 1 HD, Cheetah gets you 50 foot movement and a 500 foot charge once per hour. Leopard gets you pounce and the ability boosts.

I would go swordsage. Leopard as well.

[Wih]

OK. First thing to say is that Warshaper is horribly overpowered - but then again, you're playing a Gestalt game, so you're already overpowered.
Tiger is great if you're willing to pay for it (it's basically an upgunned Leopard), pouncing with your BAB attacks, plus 5 natural attacks is nasty.
Best bang for your buck is Wererat, with only 1 racial HD, and you grab yourself +6 DEX and +2 CON, aswell as that tasty DR.
For something more interesting, try a Warhorse (Light or Heavy, your choice), and have a party member use a lance/mounted combat.
Hyena is a bit better than wolf if you want to Trip a lot, you essentially trade a free Track feat for +2 more Strength.

[Tor the Fallen]

Leopard would be best for a melee'r, since it's got pounce.

[crazedloon]

I dont know if its the best but I like it as far as power try dire bat you get

fly 40 ft. (good)
large size
Blindsense 40 ft.
str +6 dex +12 con +6
Alertness, Stealthy
Dire bats have a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks
other goodys for be a wer -

not so bad for the 4 HD you lose at least in my opinion. Add 1 level warshaper and you are good to go.

[Emperor Tippy]

I dont know if its the best but I like it as far as power try dire bat you get

fly 40 ft. (good)
large size
Blindsense 40 ft.
str +6 dex +12 con +6
Alertness, Stealthy
Dire bats have a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks
other goodys for be a wer -

not so bad for the 4 HD you lose at least in my opinion. Add 1 level warshaper and you are good to go.

Direbat is very good for the HD, only thing is that with a natural weredirebat you lose 7 levels.

[The_Snark]

The serval, from Sandstorm, is a pretty good choice for a low-HD candidate; it has only 1 HD, and gives pounce (along with 2 rake attacks; don't know if you get those from the template). It's considerably better than the dire rat.

[TheOOB]

Don't underestimate a were-dog, +2 Str, +6 Dex, and +4 Con isn't bad for only 1 HD, leaves more levels for class abilities. I had particular success with a were-fox(using dog stats for the fox) cleric/monk, wis synergy for the win.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

I would go swordsage. Leopard as well.

I'm guessing that the swordsage's unarmed variant is the way to go?

Also, does the Shadow Blade feat (Dex to damage) apply using the unarmed swordsage and the hybrid form? It only works with Shadow Blade weapons (which includes the unarmed strike; but the claw and unarmed strike are included with Tiger Claw).

[Edit:] While I'm at it, would the unarmed strike damage progression from the swordsage and the natural attack damage from the hybrid form stack?

[NEO|Phyte]

I was working up stats for a WereDeinonychus/Ninja//Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker/Warshaper at one point, I sorta stopped though.

After the LA, its 4 HD of all good saves, nice speed in Animal form, +8/+4/+8 for your physical stats, and Pounce, along with 4 natural attacks.

Plus, you're a friggen Raptor!

I'm well aware that rogue would be better than the ninja in many ways, but there was some mental imagery involved in my choice there. Plus, how many people do you know that can honestly say they've played a raptor ninja? Its right up there with the wereweasel psychic warrior with the lower face and eating habits of an illithid.

[The_Snark]

I'm guessing that the swordsage's unarmed variant is the way to go?

Also, does the Shadow Blade feat (Dex to damage) apply using the unarmed swordsage and the hybrid form? It only works with Shadow Blade weapons (which includes the unarmed strike; but the claw and unarmed strike are included with Tiger Claw).

[Edit:] While I'm at it, would the unarmed strike damage progression from the swordsage and the natural attack damage from the hybrid form stack?

You're either making an unarmed strike (and using unarmed strike damage) or you're making a claw attack (and dealing claw damage). In no way do the two intersect.

Feats, including Shadow Blade, would work fine in hybrid and even animal form, I think. The unarmed swordsage is probably the way to go, since you won't be wearing armor without bursting/falling out of it a lot of the time anyway, and you can make all your unarmed strikes and claws in a full attack.

I do reccomend serval over leopard, though. You don't get a climb speed and the ability scores aren't quite as good, but it's only 1 HD. Of course, Small size might not be a good thing...

[Tor the Fallen]

Couldn't you make, as a full attack, your unarmed strikes, then all your natural attacks at -5 (or -2 with multiattack)?

[The_Snark]

Yep. He was asking whether the damage from claws increased unarmed strike damage. I think, anyway; maybe I misinterpreted that.

[Xuincherguixe]

If playing a Were Horse for purposes of being ridden, Monk might work. Monks make excellent Horses. (I forget who suggested using monks as mounts but it's inspired a lot of ideas in me :P)

[Psionic Dog]

Horses are herbivores and can't be used as lycanthropes if the rules are followed strictly.

If being ridden is important remember you have more options than horse. The ridder my need an exotic saddle, but there is no reason a Deinoychus or an advanced 4HD Hyena couldn't be ridden. Both are large like a horses.

[PinkysBrain]

Leopard, Cheetah, and Eagle are the best choices. Eagle gets you flight for 1 HD, Cheetah gets you 50 foot movement and a 500 foot charge once per hour. Leopard gets you pounce and the ability boosts.

The problem is that you have to fight in animal mode to get those benefits.

[Person_Man]

A King of Smack gestalt Warshaper/Psychic Warrior build is pretty insane. (Just Google "King of Smack").

Also, I'd like to say that Warshaper is pretty weak compared to a normal Druid or Wildshape Ranger or any full caster with access to Polymorph. It's just strong compared to normal melee builds. You might also want to throw a Mineral Warrior and Feral template on top as well, since its only counted on one side.

Are you limiting yourself to Lycanthrope, or can you also use Entromanthrope? For example, an Entromanthrope Swordspider gets 8 attacks, 40 ft movement, immunity to mind affecting effects, etc.

[Ramza00]

If you are putting the Racial HD and Level Adjustment on one side of the Gestalt, Lycanthropes is a great way to go. 20 lvls of normal class+stat bonuses and new forms of attack.

Also consider adding these templates to your lycanthrope on the same side as your racial hd.

Winged Creature (more good stat boosts and effectively perfect flight) +2 LA
Feral Template (more stat boosts)
Half Celestial LA 4/Half Fiend LA 4/Phrenic Template (very nice for LA 2)
Saint Template more stat boosts wis to ac in any armor (if you are doing a Lawful Good Dire Bear)

Works great with the other side being a cleric, favored soul, or a shapeshifting druid (since you keep your base stats and then further add to them).

[ClericofPhwarrr]

Yep. He was asking whether the damage from claws increased unarmed strike damage. I think, anyway; maybe I misinterpreted that.

That was what I was asking, and thanks for the answer.


Mineral Warrior... that would be an interesting combination with lycanthrope, since you'd always have at least DR 8, and possibly more. The physical boosts look good too.

Also, where is the Swordspider found? I've checked all 3 of the 3.5 MMs, and can't seem to find it.

[Ramza00]

Spider, Sword Mon 79 Vermin, Large 5
Mon is Monsters of Faeurn
from the Monster Index located at WOTC website
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/monsters

Which is part of the greater series of indexes located here
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/lists