Two weapon fighting question

[talltwin36]

Ok I have an NPC who is 1Barbarian/8 Ranger with 18 STR, Two weapon fighting and improved two weapon fighting. He is using a +2 battle ax and a +2 light mace.

From what I can tell a full attack round would consist of the axe at +13 and then three attacks from the mace at +8/+8/+3.

Am I right?

msquared

[Yechezkiel]

Main hand: +13/+8
Off-hand: +13/+8

[crazedloon]

you would get

+13/+8 axe
+13/+8 mace

edit ninja

[Inyssius Tor]

You know, we have a special thread just for simple questions like that.

filler falafel

[Jasdoif]

As has been mentioned already, each weapon gets attacks at +13/+8.

Since your confusion is about where the extra attacks are applied, it's like this: Your BAB is +9, which is enough to give you a second attack with your primary weapon (at -5). Your Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat gives you a second attack with your offhand weapon (at -5).

[talltwin36]

Ok normally the guy would get +15/+10 on his main hand attack if he was using just one weapon. If he does not have any feats he attacks with two weapons he is +9/+4/+5/+0 with the on/off hand weapons. If the off hand weapon is light he gets +11/+6/+7/+2 with on/off hand.

With the two weapon fighting feat and a light weapon in the off hand he should get +13/+8 on the main hand and +13/+8 on the off hand.

He then has improved two weapon fighting so should get +13/+8 on the main hand and +13/+8/+3 on the off hand.

Right?

msquared

[Jasdoif]

With the two weapon fighting feat and a light weapon in the off hand he should get +13/+8 on the main hand and +13/+8 on the off hand.

No. You only get +13 with the offhand weapon before you consider Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, your iterative attacks from your BAB only apply to your primary weapon. Without Improved Two-Weapon Fighting or similar, you only get one attack with your offhand weapon, regardless of your BAB.

[Douglas]

Normal: 15/10 with primary
Both with no feats: 11/6 primary, 7 offhand
With TWF: 13/8 primary, 13 offhand
With ITWF: 13/8 primary, 13/8 offhand

[FireSpark]

I think everyone is missing the point that a character can't even qualify to take Improved Two-weapon fighting until they have a BAB of +11.

So a BAB of +9 ain't gonna cut it. This is a non-issue.

[Douglas]

No, that's Greater Two Weapon Fighting. Improved Two Weapon Fighting only needs BAB +6. Also, Rangers get it free at level 6 and this character has 8 Ranger levels.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

FireSpark, you are confusing it with the greater version.

IMPROVED TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL]

Prerequisites: Dex 17, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.

GREATER TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL]

Prerequisites: Dex 19, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +11.

(My emphasis)


EDIT: How did I know that would happen.

I better have some popcorn....

[FireSpark]

Okay, I stand corrected.

I think what was throwing me was the fact that the OP was trying to get a third off-hand attack, which of course can't be gained until you get greter two-weapon fighting (or imbue it with the speed quality, but he never said that).

The point being the TWF feats only grant an off hand attack equal to the number of primary attacks you have. Thus the requirements for said feats.

[Person_Man]

I'd also add that you'd probably want to take Improved Unarmed Attack or Oversized Two Weapon Fighting so that you can apply Power Attack and Leap Attack to your off handed weapons' attacks.

[Matthew]

Hell, if you can help it, don't take Improved Two Weapon Fighting at all, take Two Weapon Pounce.

[SithLackey]

Except that only works every other round, assuming your enemies don't follow you when you withdraw, removes the benefit of having multiple attacks in the first place, and decreases your chances of hitting anything you'd risk a charge at anyway.

[Matthew]

Not really. Frankly, Improved Two Weapon Fighting is a trap. It's actually a worse Feat than Two weapon Fighting and will do you almost no good at Level 6, because the penalty is relatively harsh. The 'trick' is to use Two Weapon Pounce in combination with Power Attack, Leap Attack, Cleave and (eventually) Shock Trooper.

Of course, as a Ranger 8, he can't get away from it without using a variant of some sort.

[Edit]
There, not there? Where'd that post go?

[SithLackey]

Where does a 9th, or even 12th level ranger get all those feats? Besides, such power paths as those are better used by fighters who need to break the normal full attack routine than rangers. If you're a ranger, you can get the two weapon fighting and, get this, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, for free. Why not use it? IMHO, any character who has poured all of the feats necessary for that path into a charge is still missing the idea that "I charge and hit it with a stick" is not the only viable fight strategy, and often will not work at all. If warriors are to survive, they need options, like two smaller, perhaps more generalized feat trees might provide.

[Jasdoif]

The problem is that a full attack requires a full-round action and doesn't allow movement besides a five-foot step. To get a melee full attack in the absence of pounce-alikes, you first need to be in range of your opponent at the start of your turn. More often then not, this means you are in range of your opponent at the end of your turn, and thus at the start of their turn. Meaning they get the chance to full attack you, first. Trading, at most, a single regular attack of your own for a full attack from your opponent is often a bad way to start trading blows. And even worse, if opponent opts to simply withdraw, or move away (taking a single AoO from you) and then take whatever standard action they feel like, you still aren't getting your full attack.

And that's where charging comes in. Power Attack, Leap Attack and Shock Trooper combine to make that single melee attack potentially crushing. Two Weapon Pounce doesn't hurt either, if you're using two weapons anyway. And the best part is that you still have coverage on your foe: If they stand there, you can full attack them. If they move five feet away, you can take your five-foot-step towards them and full attack them. If they move more then five feet away, you can charge them again.

[Matthew]

Where does a 9th, or even 12th level ranger get all those feats?

Like I said above. He would have to be using a Variant Ranger of some description to be able to do it well at Level 9 - hence the caveat 'if you can help it', but since you ask it would look something like this:

Human Ranger 1 - Power Attack, Cleave,
Human Ranger 3 - Improved Bull Rush
Human Ranger 6 - Leap Attack
Human Ranger 8/Barbarian 1 - Two Weapon Pounce/ShockTrooper

The penalties to AB would suck, but there you go.

Jasdoif pretty much covers everything else in terms of why you would want to do it over acquiring progressively worse Off Hand Attacks that are only usable on a Full Attack.

Of course, if he has access to Complete Champion, he can always use the new Barbarian Variant that trades in 10' Speed for Pounce at Level 1 and use all his Attacks at the end of his Charge. I don't know how that interacts with Leap Attack and other such Feats, but I hear it's pretty cheesy.

[Person_Man]

Hell, if you can help it, don't take Improved Two Weapon Fighting at all, take Two Weapon Pounce.

With the existence of so many different ways to get full Pounce (the simplest being 1 level of Barbarian using the Complete Champion variant, but there are others), I believe that the Two Weapon Pounce feat is a waste.

[Matthew]

Indeed, and as noted above.