Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

[EarlGraye]

I would first like to state that I have not read through all 36 pages of this thread so if this has been brought please consider this not a repeat, but rather an emphasis and upvote for the prior poster.

For your DEX build Sorcadin chose Half-Elf Variant and pick the High Elven option of Studied. For your cantrip select Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade. Now you have more damage, battlefield control, from level 1 of Paladin making the build not so weak at lower levels.

[vcordie]

Given the main post hasn't been updated in forever, does anyone have a sample build (Level by level) for what a conquest/divine soul sorcadin would look like? Perhaps favouring an early splash of hexblade as well just for early gish and keeping you SAD. So something like conquest 7/divine soul 12/hexblade 1 or conquest 7/divine soul 13 if no hexblade dip.

[sithlordnergal]

Given the main post hasn't been updated in forever, does anyone have a sample build (Level by level) for what a conquest/divine soul sorcadin would look like? Perhaps favouring an early splash of hexblade as well just for early gish and keeping you SAD. So something like conquest 7/divine soul 12/hexblade 1 or conquest 7/divine soul 13 if no hexblade dip.

So, I would personally only go 6 levels into Conquest Paladin. Don't get me wrong, that level 7 Aura is pretty cool and all, but given how many things gain immunity to fear at those levels and higher, I just don't think its worth it. I'd suggest Paladin 6 / Hexblade 1 / Divine Soul 13. Make sure you snag spells like Spirit Guardians and potentially Spiritual Weapon if you don't have access to the SCAG cantrips. That said, if you don't mind everything being immune to your aura after tier 2, then you're fine with a 7/1/12 build. Make sure you snag Shield from Hexblade, and Inflict Wounds, Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians, and Guiding Bolt from Divine Soul. Also remember, you can change out the free spell you're given as a Divine Soul Sorcerer with a Cleric spell of your choice once you get one more level of Divine Soul.

[Spiritchaser]

So, I would personally only go 6 levels into Conquest Paladin. Don't get me wrong, that level 7 Aura is pretty cool and all, but given how many things gain immunity to fear at those levels and higher, I just don't think its worth it. I'd suggest Paladin 6 / Hexblade 1 / Divine Soul 13. Make sure you snag spells like Spirit Guardians and potentially Spiritual Weapon if you don't have access to the SCAG cantrips. That said, if you don't mind everything being immune to your aura after tier 2, then you're fine with a 7/1/12 build. Make sure you snag Shield from Hexblade, and Inflict Wounds, Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians, and Guiding Bolt from Divine Soul. Also remember, you can change out the free spell you're given as a Divine Soul Sorcerer with a Cleric spell of your choice once you get one more level of Divine Soul.

I think stopping at 6 would be a mistake. The conquest paladin is a lonely example of an excellent play mechanic that allows for a powerful melee debuffer/controller. You want that level 7 feature if you can at all get it

[Quietus]

So, I would personally only go 6 levels into Conquest Paladin. Don't get me wrong, that level 7 Aura is pretty cool and all, but given how many things gain immunity to fear at those levels and higher, I just don't think its worth it. I'd suggest Paladin 6 / Hexblade 1 / Divine Soul 13. Make sure you snag spells like Spirit Guardians and potentially Spiritual Weapon if you don't have access to the SCAG cantrips. That said, if you don't mind everything being immune to your aura after tier 2, then you're fine with a 7/1/12 build. Make sure you snag Shield from Hexblade, and Inflict Wounds, Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians, and Guiding Bolt from Divine Soul. Also remember, you can change out the free spell you're given as a Divine Soul Sorcerer with a Cleric spell of your choice once you get one more level of Divine Soul.

I think stopping at 6 would be a mistake. The conquest paladin is a lonely example of an excellent play mechanic that allows for a powerful melee debuffer/controller. You want that level 7 feature if you can at all get it

Both of these have value, really. The Conquest 6 version is fine for the slightly larger power, namely from the earlier spells available. Conquest 7 may not be able to bring its aura to bear *every* time, but it's a tool in the tool bag. Even if you only use it in 1/3 of your combats, there is value to that. The question becomes, what do you want more? Additional spell slots/spell levels and the Sorc level 14 subclass ability, or the additional trick/Charisma-SAD from Hexblade bump?

Also worth considering, what level is your game going to? Consider what level you're actually likely to reach, not just what you'll look like if you get to 20. Prioritizing getting third level sorcerer spells is very much worth keeping in mind where possible.

[Storyteller_Arc]

Personally, I think if your going Conquest, you should always go for 7 Levels in it. The Aura is undoubtedly one of the most powerful Aura's amongst all of the subclasses and really adds to any Paladin's ability to control the battlefield and keep them from attack your allies. Considering the fact that a Sorcadin, while they have less HP, can be an even better tank than a straight Paladin due to spells such as Shield and Absorb Elements, it is simply doing you a disfavour by going for Conquest, but not getting the level 7 ability.

If your going for a non-Paladin 7 build, I highly suggest a different Oath.

[cZak]

And that's kinda the kicker...
That ASI at level 8 is just SOOOOOO tempting

Just my thoughts, but going straight to level 5 in Paladin for that extra attack seems logical to keep up with the group, as that seems the level where all classes get that first major boost
The bonus to saves at level 6 is another very good add-on
The Aura at 7 is kind of the bread n butter of a warrior-caster for control & very thematic for the class

Have only thought-experimented with the Sorcadin class; haven't been lucky enough to have a game progress beyond 8th level before it fell apart. But always thought to use the expanded resource of spells to boost the melee ability of the character. Understand that's just one of many options, but I'd love to have the opportunity

[Corran]

Given the main post hasn't been updated in forever, does anyone have a sample build (Level by level) for what a conquest/divine soul sorcadin would look like? Perhaps favouring an early splash of hexblade as well just for early gish and keeping you SAD. So something like conquest 7/divine soul 12/hexblade 1 or conquest 7/divine soul 13 if no hexblade dip.

Haven't played this. And it's not a level by level build (though I think I mention progression), more like the general direction I would take with this build.

Spoiler: old post

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No-concentration at will flight is a very nice ''capstone''. And the 9th level slot can be put to good use. But with aura of conquest in play you can do some very nice things. I'd trade any day a sorcerer level for getting that 7th level in conquest paly, for a conquest sorcadin. And depending on how much I would need certain 3rd level paladin spells (aura of vitality, dispel magic and revivify), I might even be tempted to go all the way up to paladin 9 (though if someone else covered for most some of those, I would be more tempted to stick to a 7/13 split).

Aura of conquest boosts the most effective tactics a conquest sorcadin can pull off. To jump a little ahead, I would make it a divine soul, because I would definitely want spirit guardians (if you are really commited to draconic bloodline, something like wall of fire could replace spirit guardians, though I doubt it would be as effective).

Here is what I'd do. First of all, I look at the channel divinity, conquering presence. On its own it's decent (and pretty strong as CD's go). With aura of conquest in play is a hell lot stronger. But, I could potentially combine it with certain quickened sorcerer spells to make this opening round a lot more dangerous (or use sorcerer spells to cover some weaknesses of conquering presence; depending how you look at it). For example, quickening a web (it doesn't have to be web, but I think web is the most cost-efficient for what we are looking for here) might be very vital whenever you are using conquering presence, because it gives you a chance (and great odds at maintaining if it first sticks) at restricting enemy movement. And restricting enemy movement will be very important as far as frightened (by anything else than the fear spell) melee enemies outside your aura of conquest are concerned (because of how they don't have the option to approach you and thus will engage your allies, which is something you want to avoid since it is you that aims at tanking). There is of course the possibility to counteract this by having all your allies gather really close to you (and yet, this plan will not always be valid), in which case counterspell will be a good spell to have available. Generally, conquering presence can backfire due to how exactly it is that it restricts enemy movement, at least for the enemies that are beyond 10' of you once you get aura of conquest (meaning that aura of conquest mitigates this problem, but does not solve it entirely). So quickening a web, or having the option to counterspell if the squishies gather close to you, assuming initiative and positioning allows for that, would be great spells to cover for the inherent weakness of any tactics keyed off conquering presence. Quickening a spirit guardians if you catch enough enemies with conquering presence within your aura of conquest radius (immobilized) will often be how you will go about winning fights.

Now, any tactics relying on conquering presence will be not just good, but great. And that's cause we have ways of boosting these tactics a lot. But conquering presence recharges on a short rest, and so you will not always have it available. But even when you do have it available, if you can catch enough dangerous enemies inside the AoE of a cone, that's when you want to use fear instead. That's because the effect of fear is much stronger than that of conquering presence, and even with the additional boost from concentration spells like web and spirit guardians that conquering presence can get, fear still comes on top imo. The downside is that it's not party friendly. You can solve it with careful. Fear is an ok spell. With careful it becomes miles better. With aura of conquest on top of it all, you are golden.

When you don't want to use fear effects, you can fall back to spells like bless, web and spirit guardians, or to simply tanking with shield, or dropping some AoE (vitriolic sphere plays nicely with web for example; so does freedom of movement; FoM + web + BB OA's + plus potentially lightning lure). Meaning, you fall back to some very generally applicable spells, which are good on their own, but the trick is that they can also combine with when you are using your main tactics, which will be fear tactics (mainly the following 4: wrathful smite, careful fear, conquering presence + quickened web, conquering presence + quickened spirit guardians; I guess conquering presence + quickened fear could be of use if you are extremelly desperate or unlucky, but eh...).

To summarize spell selection:

From sorcerer (and assuming 7 -and not 9- paladin levels), I'd definitely prioritize spells like:
1) Fear
2) Spirit Guardians
3) Web
4) Vitriolic Sphere
5) Freedom of Movement
6) Shield
7) Absorb Elements
8) Counterspell

… and I would look to round out this list with probably one more AoE (fireball most likely, cause I could put to good use the higher level slots), one of banishment or hold monster (depending on party comp; banishment if I have a lot of squishies, hold monster otherwise), one teleport (either misty step or dimension door; again, depending on group comp; there might be some value in trying to squeeze both of them in your list of known spells), definitely heal (possibly at the cost of mass suggestion), and maybe something like death ward or some other useful spell if I have enough room for it. I'd probably avoid healing word. It's a very good spell, but I don't think I would have enough low level spell slots for it in this build.

For cantrips:
1) GFB
2) BB
3) Lightning Lure
4) Firebolt/ Ray of Frost (definitely at least one ranged cantrip)
… plus two more of your choice (guidance and minor illusion/ prestidigitation/ mage hand/ message sound good to me).

From the paladin list, I'd definitely keep prepared (and make frequent use of) spells like wrathful smite, bless, lesser restoration and aid. And we've got some pretty decent oath spells as well (command, armor of agathys which plays well with high level slots and potentially with blade ward, hold person which is great even though somewhat situational, and spiritual weapon for when you want to weaponize your bonus actions without overpaying in resources for it). Branding smite has some synergy with the other CD (guided strike), so I would consider having it prepared as well (in case I need to smite a dangerous invisible opponent), though it does not sound all that exciting; still, something I would think about.

For feats: Warcaster obviously, then you can bump charisma (as your spell save DC and concentration save are what power your tactics). Later on (or early on, in case you play a vhuman), you can pick sth like inspiring leader, lucky, alert, bump str, or whatever.

[Klorox]

IMHO, I’d always prioritize paladin levels up to level 6 at least.

That level 6 ability is so damn good, I’d want it ASAP.

[OgataiKhan]

Guys, when considering a Sorcadin build I find myself very undecided between two alternatives.

Given that I don't want to give up 7th level Sorcerer spells, Is it better to go VHuman Ancients 7/Divine Soul 13, or Half-Elf Vengeance 6/Hexblade 1/Divine Soul 13?

Ancients 7/Divine Soul 13 gives me the magic resistance aura and the possibility of using upcast Shadow Blade, but my ASI would be Resilient Con, Cha +2, Cha +2, Str +2, War Caster, which would leave me with only 18 Str.

By contrast, Vengeance 6/Hexblade 1/Divine Soul 13 loses the aura and Shadow Blade but gains an attacking stat of 20 and Elven Accuracy + Vow of Enmity.

Which is, in your opinion, the overall more effective option at high levels?

[Storyteller_Arc]

Sooooo, are we going to talk about the new Sorcerer Origin and Paladin Oath at all, or are only going to wait until the material is actually out in a splatbook rather than just unearthed arcana?

[Arkhios]

Sooooo, are we going to talk about the new Sorcerer Origin and Paladin Oath at all, or are only going to wait until the material is actually out in a splatbook rather than just unearthed arcana?

Doubtful. It's been a while since this guide's been updated and it doesn't even include the officially published oaths from Xanathar's Guide, not to mention any other Oaths from Unearthed Arcana articles. (If it does, they're not on first page and are buried under the weight of more than thousand posts).

[Storyteller_Arc]

Ummm, I didn't ask if the guide will talk about the new stuff. I asked if we, the people who have been discussing the Sorcadin so much, was gonna talk about the new stuff.

[Swosh]

Ummm, I didn't ask if the guide will talk about the new stuff. I asked if we, the people who have been discussing the Sorcadin so much, was gonna talk about the new stuff.

Not much to say really. In my opinion, the new subclasses for the Paladin and Sorcerer are severely lacking compared to the others. The only new thing that is actually useful is the new cantrip; Mind Sliver which has some nice combo potential with both quickened and twinned metamagic.

[Storyteller_Arc]

Not much to say really. In my opinion, the new subclasses for the Paladin and Sorcerer are severely lacking compared to the others. The only new thing that is actually useful is the new cantrip; Mind Sliver which has some nice combo potential with both quickened and twinned metamagic.

See. That's where I disagree with you. Severely.

The new Oath of Heroism is very potent for the Sorcadin. Even if you don't go for the level 7 feature. The 19-20 Crit Range is a very powerful ability, and while alone, the Vow of Emmity is stronger. Getting advantage due to other means, or thanks to your party members, isn't exactly difficult. We already deal use spike damage when we get a successful critical hit off, and getting that spike damage significantly more consistently isn't anything to shake a stick at.

Then we have the Level 7 class feature, which is probably the strongest level 7 Paladin ability outside of the Oathbreaker. Free AoE CC or 'heal' on crit or drop? On a build with massive spike damage, and can easily built around crits? It's not going to be hard to trigger it several times a battle, and it gives you the same healing as mass cure wounds, a level 3 spell, whenever you trigger it! For free! That's a lot of healing for the party... And if everyone still has THP when you use it, then giving every for within 30ft the Frightened Condition for a turn is very strong as well.

As it stands,why wouldn't you take the Oath of Heroism?

[Swosh]

See. That's where I disagree with you. Severely.

The new Oath of Heroism is very potent for the Sorcadin. Even if you don't go for the level 7 feature. The 19-20 Crit Range is a very powerful ability, and while alone, the Vow of Emmity is stronger. Getting advantage due to other means, or thanks to your party members, isn't exactly difficult. We already deal use spike damage when we get a successful critical hit off, and getting that spike damage significantly more consistently isn't anything to shake a stick at.

Then we have the Level 7 class feature, which is probably the strongest level 7 Paladin ability outside of the Oathbreaker. Free AoE CC or 'heal' on crit or drop? On a build with massive spike damage, and can easily built around crits? It's not going to be hard to trigger it several times a battle, and it gives you the same healing as mass cure wounds, a level 3 spell, whenever you trigger it! For free! That's a lot of healing for the party... And if everyone still has THP when you use it, then giving every for within 30ft the Frightened Condition for a turn is very strong as well.

As it stands, why wouldn't you take the Oath of Heroism?

Oath spells:

So, first of all, I don't really see any Oath spell that i find particularly attractive. I mean i guess Enhance Ability is okay but, usually you have Guidance anyways so it isn't that big of a deal.

Channel Divinity:

The Channel Divinity, Peerless Athlete is effectively useless unless your going for some kind of grappling build, which again from an optimizing point of view is not particularly good.

The Channel Divinity, Legendary Strike is significantly weaker than the VoE from Vengeance. The crit chance is approximately the same as VoE but, VoE also increases your chance to hit while Legendary Strike doesn't. As for getting advantage from other sources, you would most likely would have to give up your concentration in order to do that which means your losing other things (f.ex giving up haste for greater invis). If you wanted to get crit 19-20 you could always dip Hexblade anyways.

As for going crit fishing, it is very unpredictable and usually that's the problem. When you badly need your crit it doesn't happened and when you don't need it, it does happened.


Mighty Deed:

The lvl 7th ability as you mention can be very effective but, is very dependent upon you criting which again leads me back to how unpredictable crit fishing is. The hole Oath of Heroism subclass is basically relying upon you scoring a critical hit, which is completely unreliable and pretty much only left to chance.


Changes to make the subclass viable:

In order to make Oath of Heroism a subclass worth picking i would have to see some significant changes. Some examples can be:

- Better Oath spells.

- Changes to Legendary Strike: If you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can treat the roll as a critical hit (A lot better when it isnt unpredictable.)
- Changes to Peerless Athlete: As a bonus action and on your subsequent turns you can take the Dash or Disengage action.

- Alter the Mighty Deed to make it a better fit to the new changes (Parhaps change it so that they make a save every round to get out of the fear after you crit).

[Storyteller_Arc]

Oath spells:

So, first of all, I don't really see any Oath spell that I find particularly attractive. I mean I guess Enhance Ability is okay but, usually you have Guidance anyways so it isn't that big of a deal.

You do get Haste. Admittedly that is at level 9, further than where you want to be a Paladin normally. But it's important to take into consideration as well.

Channel Divinity:
Legendary Strike is significantly weaker than the VoE from Vengeance.

See, that is just straight-up wrong. Let's go over why, shall we?

The crit chance is approximately the same as VoE but, VoE also increases your chance to hit while Legendary Strike doesn't.

Yes. This is true. This is very true... against a single target. In a vacuum, against a single target. VoE is the better option. However, when you are not in a vacuum, or when you are going up against more than one opponent (excluding minions), then Legendary Strike is superior to VoE in terms of potential damage windows, and that's without actually building around it in order to increase our chances are criting.

As for getting advantage from other sources, you would most likely would have to give up your concentration in order to do that which means your losing other things (f.ex giving up haste for greater invis).

That's only if you are the one giving you a means of Advantedge. You could, for example. Be playing with a Wizard who cast Faerie Fire on your enemies. Or maybe your playing with a Shepard Druid who is giving you Advantedge as a reaction. Or maybe your playing with a Sorcerer who dropped a Careful Spell Web for you to whale at. Plus, most means of us gaining Advantedge, normally does more than just give use advantedge.

If you wanted to get crit 19-20 you could always dip Hexblade anyways.

Except, that's limited to one enemy.

Mighty Deed:
The lvl 7th ability as you mention can be very effective but, is very dependent upon you criting

Or dropping an enemy to 0 HP or lower. Your playing a Sorcadin. A build that is very good at bursting foes down with big spikes of damage. Chances of dropping at least one, maybe even two enemies in a combat is pretty high, even if you don't go for a crit-fishing build... which is far less chancey than you seem to believe if you really go down that route. (Elven Accuracy is what you are looking for as a crit-fisher)

[Mitsu]

Guys, when considering a Sorcadin build I find myself very undecided between two alternatives.

Given that I don't want to give up 7th level Sorcerer spells, Is it better to go VHuman Ancients 7/Divine Soul 13, or Half-Elf Vengeance 6/Hexblade 1/Divine Soul 13?

Ancients 7/Divine Soul 13 gives me the magic resistance aura and the possibility of using upcast Shadow Blade, but my ASI would be Resilient Con, Cha +2, Cha +2, Str +2, War Caster, which would leave me with only 18 Str.

By contrast, Vengeance 6/Hexblade 1/Divine Soul 13 loses the aura and Shadow Blade but gains an attacking stat of 20 and Elven Accuracy + Vow of Enmity.

Which is, in your opinion, the overall more effective option at high levels?

My experience proved over and over again that Variant Human is always the best choice if you start from level 1. Extra feat for any multiclass build is just THAT GOOD. Makes your Sorcadin come online at level 10 ( RES (CON), +2 CHA, +2 CHA) instead of level 14 with Half-Elf/Elf ( Elven Accuracy +1 CHA, +2 CHA, War Caster/RES (CON). Half-Elf needs one more ASI to be fully online.

Yes, on level 14 if we would compare both we could say that Half-Elf is better at crit fishing, however: how many times did you actually play level 14+ DnD on character that started from level 1? Is worth to sacrefice 1-10 power advantage of Vuman for being better only at higher tiers?

Also at level 14 Variant Human can chose free utility feat that imo goes longer way that extra crit chance. Things like Mobile, Lucky, Sentinel, Shield Master, Mounted Combatant or even Great Weapon Master if you will find a good 2 handed weapon on your way or PAM if you get some sick spear/quarterstaff.

Having Access to Warcaster or RES (CON) at level 1 (Warcaster depending on your DM) is huge. It already boosts your concentration saves and you will spend majority of your time as Paladin/Sorcadin at concentrating at something.

So overall for Sorcadin my best build from all I tried so far is Variant Human 6 Vengeance Paladin/X Divine Soul Sorcerer. Start with RES (CON) or Warcaster, then +2 CHA on level 4 and level 10 and you are fully on. Now if you will get some STR boosting item like Ogre Gloves or Giant belt- stay Sorcerer. If you however won't - dip 1 level of Hexblade after Level 11 (6 Paladin/5 Sorcerer) for SAD CHA. Why after level 11? Because then you get your final spike in completing Sorcadin - 3rd level spells like Haste, Counter Spell, Spirit Guardians and Hypnotic Pattern.

I am not fan of Hexblade dip otherwise as both VoE and Curse are bonus actions and you are already 3 levels behind as caster and 6 levels behind as Sorcerer so any further delay is no no in my book.

[Sception]

Except, that's limited to one enemy.

Also, both abilities are on short rest timers, which theoretically is supposed to mean every other fight. Having both lets you alternate to have increased crit range against one or more enemies in every encounter. Far from being redundant, I'd say heroes that plan on taking 7 levels of paladin have extra motivation to dip hexblade.

[Storyteller_Arc]

Also, both abilities are on short rest timers, which theoretically is supposed to mean every other fight. Having both lets you alternate to have increased crit range against one or more enemies in every encounter. Far from being redundant, I'd say heroes that plan on taking 7 levels of paladin have extra motivation to dip hexblade.

That is true. Plus the Charisma modifier being used for attacks means that you can pick up Elvish Accuracy to give your potential crit rate a very significant boost, and you have 2 short-rest spell slots, meaning that your crits are that more reliable in doing strong damage. but at the same time, ASIN's would start to be an issue at that point.

Paladin 7/Hexblade 1/Sorcerer 12 has 4 ASINs, when normally you have 5. Though it shouldn't matter too much at the end. Hexblade 2 however, for the Agonizing Blast, means you won't be able to get yourself 4 ASIN's unless you go for Paladin 8, which reduces your sorcerer levels to 10, and your total spellcasting level drops to 14. Meaning you'll be missing out on level 8 spell slots. So its depends how much you think the Agonizing Blast would be worth, compared to the loss in spellcaster progression.

[Sception]

While Agonizing blast is very good, I don't think it's necessarily worth the second level of warlock in a paladin build. These builds are primarily melee combatants, any ranged attacks are there as fallback options for when you can't reach melee and don't have relevant buffs to prepare. As a fallback option, Eldritch Blast on its own is perfectly satisfactory. Obviously it gets much stronger with Agonizing Blast, but even with that upgrade you still shouldn't be using it all that much regardless.

Things get more complicated in a sorcadin build, where quicken means you're much more likely to be popping off eldritch blasts mid combat. I don't really know what the right answer then is, because yeah, 4 ASI's is plenty, provided Warlock is fixing the MADness issue, but 3 feels like you're cutting things a little short.

[GoblinGibberish]

Greetings, absolute first timer goblin on the playground!

Foreword
It took almost two days, but finally got through the whole thread and I have to admit it was a quality adventure in itself. The original post is great like a good first meeting in the inn and the rest of the story is an emotional rollercoaster. New friendships born, old friendships broke in the middle of the ruling analyses. However it was very educational and everyone left with some scars as it should have happen. I highly enjoyed all of it.

Kudos to Gastronomie for the amazing OP and Corran (among many others), who guys should be working on this game officially if the not already doing it!

Now the reason for my post
My friend and I will do an allegedly "long term" 1-on-1 GM vs Player campaign. We decided to use the Gestalt ruleset (unable to provide link as this is my first post, so insert imagery DnD Wiki link) with the slight addition to the ASI progression remain the original (+2 or +1/1 ASI at the appropriate levels or get a feat instead.). Considering this, it is not a regular multiclassing (although Gestalt branch multiclassing allowed) question per se, but still hope is fitting for the conversation to elaborate on the awe inspiring powers of the Sorcadin and go nuts with the broader resources that are possible. We expect moderate - high magic item drop rate, and the overall mood of going for super hero powers.

I am truly torn between some choices regarding a theoretical Paladin 20 // Sorcerer 20 gestalt, or a Paladin 17 / Warlock 3 // Sorcerer 20 and would really appreciate your insights.

Some already made decisions on my part

Spoiler

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As the base idea my sorcadin's life was destroyed by religious zealots because of his innate magical abilities, swore an oath to payback all who caused him harm. Sorta anti-hero gish. First he decided to eliminate the zealots, then their religion, then any other perhaps, until he must meet his own demise, because his powers got to originate from somewhere. To sum up with a motto: "By all means necessary." or picture a more gloomy, brutish and simpler version of the Emperor of Men from Warhammer 40K.

The goal is to still keep the versatility. Divine Soul and Cleric is a strict no-no but on the bright side party buffs are not necessary. Because RP comes first, the theme gives some restrictions.

Race: V. Human
Point-buy base stats
Classes: Paladin (Oath of Vengeance), Sorcerer (Shadow)
Skills: Intimidation, Persuasion
Sword & Board with Dueling fighting style

And that's that... alas come confusion.

Confused rambling about stats and feats

Spoiler

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Now right at the beginning I am stumped because of the negative initiative modifier and the fact that this build provide such unobservancy, it should be a miracle to not don your armor upside down after each rest. I really don't see the point of being a total badass with theoretical nigh invulnerability by level 6, if you can't make the difference between a twig and the giant dragon that is rushing at you with murderous intent and in 90% of your adventuring career you will start every turn at the last position on the initiative table. Everything acts before you. Even the aforementioned twig. Bearing this in mind, would it cause public outrage to consider the Alert feat as the starting V. Human pick instead of War Caster? Without a party, nobody can warn me about the possible threats, so the +5 initiative and the "surprise shield" can be really handy. Nobody can keep up concentration if they are nuked down right?

With the expectation of getting my hands on an early Gauntlet of Ogre Power (which is 101 - 500 gold and Uncommon) STR should not be a problem. This strikes me as an opportunity to start with 13 10 15 8 10 15 (13 10 16 8 10 16 with racials). This comply the Gestalt rules to allow the starting double class and while losing on the 15 STR +1 attack and damage and the innate possibility to wear plate, with GoOP it is also seems to be covered. As a backup plan for the STR problem, a 1 level dip to Hexblade should solve the attack/damage bonuses with CHA SAD, but delay Aura of Protection by one level.

I am also not really fond about the low DEX. Aura of Protection can mitigate some of this, but Shield Master seems really tempting for the +2 / +5 save bonus from the shield's AC and get zero damage on a success as a reaction if not already used on Shield or Counterspell etc. Also a nice shove with the house rule to allow it on quickened BB and GFB, making it almost Sentinel, but the enemy ends up being prone instead of 0 movement. Even without the house rule it is a nice thing.

Would it be reasonable to think about the following progression with GoOP early drop?
Stats: 13 10 16 8 10 16 with racials on CON and CHA
LvL 1: Alert
LvL 4: War Caster
LvL 8: +2 CHA
LvL 12: +2 CHA
LvL 16: Shield Master
LvL 20: ???

Or without GoOP (what if someone robs it, or gets destroyed, not receive it early or never, etc.)
Stats: 15 8 15 8 10 16 with racials on STR and CHA
LvL 1: War Caster
LvL 4: Shield master (No early initiative, but higher DEX saves early on)
LvL 8: +2 CHA
LvL 12: +2 CHA
LvL 16: ???
LvL 20: ???

Confused rambling about class and spell choices

Spoiler

Show

In the previous part I mentioned the Hexblade dip. From a RP view it is oddly compelling to choose this multiclass on the paladin "side" of the Gestalt branches, as both the shadow origin Sorcerer and the Hexblade gets it power from the Shadowfell and by the description of the class, a Paladin could also get her power from the Shadowfell. Rulewise it provides the usual goodies: CHA SAD, extra spell slots and spells, hex curse, the best ranged cantrip in the game, and a lot of amazing in-and-out of combat utilities.

With the single player aspect of the upcoming sessions, going with a 3 level Hexblade dip opens up at-will Detect Magic and Devil's Sight invocations. Those could save me a lot of spell points as the Shadow Sorcerer's Eye Of The Dark costs 2 sp to see through it. That could be anything else Quickened, or turn into Smites. On the other hand Devil's Sight could be interchangeable to Agonizing Blast as the ranged fallback plan, but constant Detect Magic is invaluable IMHO, so it should be treated as mandatory pick given the priest hunter theme. Pact Boon could be either blade or tome. Pact Of The Blade synergize well thematically and with Hex Warrior, and gives a chance to always have a weapon. Pact Of The Tome gives access to Thaumaturgy which is fantastic cantrip for various usecases and synergize well with Shadow Blade as it can dim lights as opposed to Prestidigitation which dim only one lightsource, don't need concentration, lasts for 10 rounds, can be quickened for the SB single nova damage. Both Shadow Blade and Pact Blade should have some overlap issues, however they give options for different nova tactics for different situations.

Character Level Progression
Pal 1 // Sor 1
Pal 2 // Sor 2
Pal 2 / War 1 // Sor 3
Take Pal and Sor till Pal 6 for Aura Of Protection
Pal 6 / War 1 // Sor 7

Onward no idea to level Pal for Oath Of Vengeance mobility buff or Hexblade and Pact features, but getting OoV spells asap is a juicy idea too.

For spells, the previous posts in the thread gives a pretty solid case so won't reiterate those.

If you have read all my gibberish, then kudos to you, and would appreciate any constructive argument!

[Klorox]

Greetings, absolute first timer goblin on the playground!

Foreword
It took almost two days, but finally got through the whole thread and I have to admit it was a quality adventure in itself. The original post is great like a good first meeting in the inn and the rest of the story is an emotional rollercoaster. New friendships born, old friendships broke in the middle of the ruling analyses. However it was very educational and everyone left with some scars as it should have happen. I highly enjoyed all of it.

Kudos to Gastronomie for the amazing OP and Corran (among many others), who guys should be working on this game officially if the not already doing it!

Now the reason for my post
My friend and I will do an allegedly "long term" 1-on-1 GM vs Player campaign. We decided to use the Gestalt ruleset (unable to provide link as this is my first post, so insert imagery DnD Wiki link) with the slight addition to the ASI progression remain the original (+2 or +1/1 ASI at the appropriate levels or get a feat instead.). Considering this, it is not a regular multiclassing (although Gestalt branch multiclassing allowed) question per se, but still hope is fitting for the conversation to elaborate on the awe inspiring powers of the Sorcadin and go nuts with the broader resources that are possible. We expect moderate - high magic item drop rate, and the overall mood of going for super hero powers.

I am truly torn between some choices regarding a theoretical Paladin 20 // Sorcerer 20 gestalt, or a Paladin 17 / Warlock 3 // Sorcerer 20 and would really appreciate your insights.

Some already made decisions on my part

Spoiler

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As the base idea my sorcadin's life was destroyed by religious zealots because of his innate magical abilities, swore an oath to payback all who caused him harm. Sorta anti-hero gish. First he decided to eliminate the zealots, then their religion, then any other perhaps, until he must meet his own demise, because his powers got to originate from somewhere. To sum up with a motto: "By all means necessary." or picture a more gloomy, brutish and simpler version of the Emperor of Men from Warhammer 40K.

The goal is to still keep the versatility. Divine Soul and Cleric is a strict no-no but on the bright side party buffs are not necessary. Because RP comes first, the theme gives some restrictions.

Race: V. Human
Point-buy base stats
Classes: Paladin (Oath of Vengeance), Sorcerer (Shadow)
Skills: Intimidation, Persuasion
Sword & Board with Dueling fighting style

And that's that... alas come confusion.

Confused rambling about stats and feats

Spoiler

Show

Now right at the beginning I am stumped because of the negative initiative modifier and the fact that this build provide such unobservancy, it should be a miracle to not don your armor upside down after each rest. I really don't see the point of being a total badass with theoretical nigh invulnerability by level 6, if you can't make the difference between a twig and the giant dragon that is rushing at you with murderous intent and in 90% of your adventuring career you will start every turn at the last position on the initiative table. Everything acts before you. Even the aforementioned twig. Bearing this in mind, would it cause public outrage to consider the Alert feat as the starting V. Human pick instead of War Caster? Without a party, nobody can warn me about the possible threats, so the +5 initiative and the "surprise shield" can be really handy. Nobody can keep up concentration if they are nuked down right?

With the expectation of getting my hands on an early Gauntlet of Ogre Power (which is 101 - 500 gold and Uncommon) STR should not be a problem. This strikes me as an opportunity to start with 13 10 15 8 10 15 (13 10 16 8 10 16 with racials). This comply the Gestalt rules to allow the starting double class and while losing on the 15 STR +1 attack and damage and the innate possibility to wear plate, with GoOP it is also seems to be covered. As a backup plan for the STR problem, a 1 level dip to Hexblade should solve the attack/damage bonuses with CHA SAD, but delay Aura of Protection by one level.

I am also not really fond about the low DEX. Aura of Protection can mitigate some of this, but Shield Master seems really tempting for the +2 / +5 save bonus from the shield's AC and get zero damage on a success as a reaction if not already used on Shield or Counterspell etc. Also a nice shove with the house rule to allow it on quickened BB and GFB, making it almost Sentinel, but the enemy ends up being prone instead of 0 movement. Even without the house rule it is a nice thing.

Would it be reasonable to think about the following progression with GoOP early drop?
Stats: 13 10 16 8 10 16 with racials on CON and CHA
LvL 1: Alert
LvL 4: War Caster
LvL 8: +2 CHA
LvL 12: +2 CHA
LvL 16: Shield Master
LvL 20: ???

Or without GoOP (what if someone robs it, or gets destroyed, not receive it early or never, etc.)
Stats: 15 8 15 8 10 16 with racials on STR and CHA
LvL 1: War Caster
LvL 4: Shield master (No early initiative, but higher DEX saves early on)
LvL 8: +2 CHA
LvL 12: +2 CHA
LvL 16: ???
LvL 20: ???

Confused rambling about class and spell choices

Spoiler

Show

In the previous part I mentioned the Hexblade dip. From a RP view it is oddly compelling to choose this multiclass on the paladin "side" of the Gestalt branches, as both the shadow origin Sorcerer and the Hexblade gets it power from the Shadowfell and by the description of the class, a Paladin could also get her power from the Shadowfell. Rulewise it provides the usual goodies: CHA SAD, extra spell slots and spells, hex curse, the best ranged cantrip in the game, and a lot of amazing in-and-out of combat utilities.

With the single player aspect of the upcoming sessions, going with a 3 level Hexblade dip opens up at-will Detect Magic and Devil's Sight invocations. Those could save me a lot of spell points as the Shadow Sorcerer's Eye Of The Dark costs 2 sp to see through it. That could be anything else Quickened, or turn into Smites. On the other hand Devil's Sight could be interchangeable to Agonizing Blast as the ranged fallback plan, but constant Detect Magic is invaluable IMHO, so it should be treated as mandatory pick given the priest hunter theme. Pact Boon could be either blade or tome. Pact Of The Blade synergize well thematically and with Hex Warrior, and gives a chance to always have a weapon. Pact Of The Tome gives access to Thaumaturgy which is fantastic cantrip for various usecases and synergize well with Shadow Blade as it can dim lights as opposed to Prestidigitation which dim only one lightsource, don't need concentration, lasts for 10 rounds, can be quickened for the SB single nova damage. Both Shadow Blade and Pact Blade should have some overlap issues, however they give options for different nova tactics for different situations.

Character Level Progression
Pal 1 // Sor 1
Pal 2 // Sor 2
Pal 2 / War 1 // Sor 3
Take Pal and Sor till Pal 6 for Aura Of Protection
Pal 6 / War 1 // Sor 7

Onward no idea to level Pal for Oath Of Vengeance mobility buff or Hexblade and Pact features, but getting OoV spells asap is a juicy idea too.

For spells, the previous posts in the thread gives a pretty solid case so won't reiterate those.

If you have read all my gibberish, then kudos to you, and would appreciate any constructive argument!

If it’s truly “GM vs player” the game is already lost.

[GoblinGibberish]

If it’s truly “GM vs player” the game is already lost.

True, and I should have choose my wording with more care. For the sake if the character building argument, just ignore that line.

[Corran]

@GoblinGibberish:

Spoiler

Show

If you are a one-man party, plan with that primarily in mind. This affects all kind of choices, small and big.

For example, a small choice is the fighting style. I'd go with defense instead of dueling. Cause I am pretty certain that the damage this little +1 to AC will be sparing me on average each round, will be greater than the extra damage I will be inflicting each round with dueling. That's cause the enemies will have no other targets, so all their attacks are aiming at you. 5% of the average damage that all the living enemies deal per round, will be greater than +4 (or +6 even, depending on how you will be using your bonus action) weighted down by hit chance.

Let's talk about a big choice. Such as what feat you should look to take. Getting surprised will be pretty nasty, for sure. Cause action economy wont be on your side already, so losing more actions (by getting surprised) makes it even worse. So yes, alert is a good feat to take. I think there is something even worse than getting surprised though. Because if you get surprised and assuming you don't fall in one round (btw, you definitely want death ward on this character eventually; it's the illusion of safety, and it works definitely better if you are part of a party than in solo play, but I would still get it, because if you are playing solo then you need every contingency you can get your hands on), you could heal up with lay on hands and quicken some defensive buff that will help you win the fight. So, there is a way to get back into the fight, and possibly with good odds even (or you could just try to dimension door away and run). Do you know what is even worse? Failing a crucial save. Such as a save against a hold person, or against something that will restrain you. Even fear and poison wont be easy to deal with, as being affected by one of those (admittedly not that terrible conditions), it essentially means that the whole party's damage attacking capabilities are halved. Remember, you are the whole party. Any debuff hat sticks, hurts you a lot more than it would if you had allies. I guess you could always count on a quickened lesser restoration/ dispel magic to deal with some of the lesser effects (so that you don't lose your main action; anything that takes actions away from killing enemies will be very tough on you). But it's not only how much debuffs will hurt you. The problem is that against some such effects you wont have a way to reverse them, other than rolling a save at the end of each lost turn. There are no allies there to help you. So, boost your defenses. Especially your saves. Not with resilient. You want to boost all of your saves. I'd take the lucky feat. And I would also pick divine soul as my sorcerous origin (which helps with saves), though I would do that for other reasons (mainly for spirit guardians; don't worry about lacking darkvision, you can get it through warlock levels, which I would get, but more on that later; strength of the grave is nice, but not as nice as spirit guardians). That's not to say, don't take alert. I'd take alert too. And sooner than lucky. Getting surprised at lower levels is more of a danger than failing a crucial save imo. So, I'd take aler t first, then lucky. And warcaster before both of them. Vhuman helps with getting all those feats soon. Charisma boosts would be delayed, unfortunately, but I think it's worth it. If you are not worried too much about getting jumped by enemies, then skip alert completely (you could always ask your DM about that, so that you don't waste a whole feat on it; the initiative bonus is better during team play, for example when you want to throw an AoE before everyone gets in the way; it's not that great on playing solo; yes, losing turns is not good, but the outcome of your encounters will rely a lot more on using the right spells and tactics than on going as quickly as possible on the first round), or take it at the high levels (16 or 19), after warcaster, lucky and maxing your charisma. I want to emphasize this. Alert will be super useful if your DM goes hard on you. Don't prioritize it if getting surprised is not one of your biggest concerns, and in my metagaming opinion this depends a lot more on DM playstyle than on the fact that you are playing solo. (The DM's decision of having monsters surprise you is by far a more conscious one than just having monsters target weak points like your saves; which are not actually weak numerically, but solo play does make them a weak point; there will be saves that you simply cannot afford to fail.)

Build for defense. Similarly to why I would prefer defense over dueling, I would prefer anything that halves the enemies' attacking capabilities than something that boosts my own damage. That's because in all likelihood (ie unless you are fighting duels), the enemies' collective damage output will outperform yours (possible exception to that is spirit guardians, that's why I would definitely look to take it in this character, either by going with the divine soul sorcerer's archtype -which has other boons as well- or by taking the crown oath -which does not have anything else major going in its favor for a solo game). So don't use bless, or haste or stuff like that. Use blur, or better yet, darkness (if you pick something like devil's sight that will allow you to see through it you will also get advantage on your own attacks, but that's the smaller of the two benefits that darkness will give you; warlock levels are good for a few more reasons). Remember that every enemy attacks targets you. And if the enemy damage is greater the one you can produce on your own single turn, then the best way to avoid it in a fair fight, is to tank it. So, build up your effective AC (remember that the shield spell is more useful the higher your effective AC is, in other words, using the shield spell plays well with imposing disadvantage on enemies' attacks). And build your concentration, since the base of your winning tactics (whether it will be through tanking or through continuous AoE damage from spirit guardians) rely on maintaining your concentration.

What if the enemies can see through blur/darkness? Or what if they can counter it by gaining advantage in some other way? In this case, your best bet, is to try to out damage the enemies. Here is where your spirit guardians comes in. You could really use this spell. And you could use it sooner rather than later (and anyway, divine soul offers more stuff than going crown paladin). Remember to dodge if necessary on subsequent turns. Don't risk your hp and concentration against several enemies (that collectively can strike hard), if spirit guardians is doing a good job for you.

Ranged attackers will be a problem. That's the main reason I would recommend taking 2 warlock levels (and definitely no more than 5, cause you need the aura improvements and the 9th level spells). Upgrading your ranged attack is very important, when you are the whole party. No allies to take care of annoying archers or flying enemies while you are focusing on the melee ones. You need to be able to do that too. Kiting could also be useful too when you get the chance to do it. I wouldn't discount teleports though. I would for sure grab dimension door. Cause if you are up against some spellcasting monster, and since you have nova in smite, which is a good way to deal with casters, and since you want to avoid taking the chance to fail a save if you can, getting dimension door, even if it was only for quickening it and following it up with an attack action and smites on top, would be reason enough for me to get it. Meaning, sometimes you will really need to prioritize which enemies you want to take out. Smite alone is not enough for this. You need to pair it with mobility. Ideally in one turn too, which you can thankfully due because of quicken. But it's not only that. Dimension door is also good for retreat. Don't discount that.

The other reason why I like the warlock levels, is because they will get you two 1st level slots that will recover on a short rest. Now, depending on how many short rests you take, this could be 4, 6, or even 8 more castings of shield per day. Fighting solo, you are definitely going to need these extra castings. I feel very confident in saying that. And of course, if you grab the warlock levels, no reason not to make them hexblade for the boost in melee attacks. I'd take agonizing blast and devil's sight as invocations. You need the boost in your ranged attacks, and darkness you can see through is a very nice upgrade on blur. I'd postpone the warlock levels at least until after getting 6 levels in paladin (extra attack and the aura), and 5 levels in sorcerer (spirit guardians; you can use blur instead of darkness till you get devil's sight). If you start with a 15 (or lower) str score, it's tempting to grab the first warlock level instead of sorcerer 5 (and thus delay sprit guardians by 1 level), when you will have also gained the extra attack; more importantly, when GFB gets a boost. Maybe do that if you think that blur is carrying you fine at these levels (it most likely will), so you wouldn't mind accessing a good AoE for just another level. No need to rush the 2nd warlock level though.

I am debating stealth. Being stealthy would be all kind of awesome (mostly for out of combat stuff, but not bad in combat, if having a decent stealth means that you can get a surprise round at least against some of the enemies, or better yet, if it means that you can start a fight from a distance if that seems like a good idea; remember to use cover or concealment in this case). But I don't think dropping your AC by 2 points is worth it, and I really don't think MAM is worth taking before warcaster, lucky and cha bumps. It might be, though there is perhaps another way to go about it. Enhance ability. Normally I don't like this spell and I wouldn't take it. But since I wouldn't like to lower my AC, and since I think that having a decent stealth could be of use (especially after you get devil's sight), I would try to see if I could fit enhance ability into my list of sorcerer spells. This means that you'll have to train stealth (prioritize dex to wisdom), and basically all that enhance ability does is that it cancels the disadvantage from wearing a heavy armor. Not sure about this one, but mentioning it as an idea.

Regarding stats. First of all you have to decide if you want to rely on a str item for being able to wear a heavy armor without any movement penalties, or if you wouldn't mind taking the speed penalty. Personally, I'd put a 15 (instead of a 16) on str (since I would be planning for the hexblade dip for other reasons anyway), so that I could save more points for my other stats (con, dex, wis; dex and wis might be tertiary stats for you, but they are pretty good stats as they affect important saves, important skills and initiative). I wouldn't go any lower than that, cause I don't want the speed penalty, and I don't like relying on items at all (also, athletics will be an important skill, cause remember, if an enemy gets to knock you prone, then every enemy attacking you from 5' is getting advantage; that's an easy way to cancel all of your defensive build up; btw, this is when you might actually want to use a spirit guardians and just dodge with every other action). But I don't it would be much worse if you went with a 13 in str. In fact, if you can count on getting and holding a str boosting item, this is the way to go. But in the end, this is entirely your decision to make, as you know the DM and thus you know better than anyone how risky it would be to depend on an item (that you might not get, or that might get stolen).

So, given vhuman (cause we want some feats fast, and also we don't want to delay our cha bumps for more than necessary; lack of darkvision is nicely solved by devil's sight, and getting devil's sight is not much of an issue since there is already a good reason to take 2 warlock levels, for agonizing blast and for the extra slots), I'll just propose two arrays. One with a str of 15 (as I would probably do it), and one with a str of 13 (as one should probably do it if they can count on a str boosting item). Remember, we pretty much know which feats we want to take (at least until level 15), so I am not counting on half feats to round out stats (this might be something I might consider doing once I get to level 16 or 19; probably 19, cause even in a game where I wouldn't prioritize alert, I would still take it at level 16 with this solo character).

STR 14 + 1 = 15 (7 points)
DEX 10
CON 14 (7 points)
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 15 + 1 = 16 (9 points)

I do value a +1 to both dex and wis more than a +1 to just con.
I am not sure how it would be best to split the points between dex and wis (leaning to valuing dex a little more, especially if I pick stealth, in which case passive perception might matter less), so I made them even.

STR 13 (5 points)
DEX 10
CON 15 + 1 = 16 (9 points)
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 15 + 1 = 16 (9 points)


* I think that relying on (expensive) minions (eg animate objects) is not that great if action economy is so much against you in the first place. But. If you think you can get enough downtime between adventuring days (so that you could control 4 undead with one 3rd level slot used on animate dead), then having some zombies follow you and make some of the enemies use their attacks on them, wouldn't be a bad idea. That's because 4 zombies for one 3rd level slot is pretty cheap, and also because you wont rely on them for damage, you will just rely on them taking some of the heat away (and zombies can do that well). If you can make it work that way, then I'd say that animate dead (assuming divine soul) is worth picking. Though never bring them into the kind of fights where you want to use a defensive buff like darkness or blur. You want them to be there for the kind of fights where you want to use spirit guardians (so fights where you cannot effectively shut down the enemy's damage, and you just try to kill them faster than they can kill you; in which case, tempting them to spend some of their attacks on zombies would be a good idea).

** You rely a lot on a few spells for winning fights. Dispel magic and counterspell from enemy casters will pose a problem. Normally you will want to prioritize these kind of enemies (smite the heck out of them), cause they can also hurt you very much with debuffs, but there might be cases where you simply cannot for whatever reason. Or there may be more than one of them. Remember that if someone tries to counterspell you, you can try to do the same to their counterspell (as long as you didn't use a bonus action spell during that turn, which is your turn, so be careful about that; avoid quickening important spells on which you rely when you think there is an enemy around who can counterspell you). But as you can counterspell their counterspell, so can they, in say, a scenario where someone casts dispel magic to get rid of your spirit guardians that is winning you the fight. If they cast dispel magic and you try to counter it, they have the option to counter your counterspell. Now, I don't imagine this thing will happen all that often (though it is probable for the DM to do it if you are doing it; and you should), but since you don't really really need any other metamagic aside for quicken (no real use for careful or twinned), you could opt to take subtle, if for nothing else, just so that you can win these counterspelling fights. Extended spell would have been nice used with something like death ward, aid and aura of vitality, but I would probably take subtle first. Cause spellcasting could probably hurt you more than brutes, so having one more edge against casters in subtle would be good.

[Storyteller_Arc]

And stuff like that is why Conan is the best of us here. Covering stuff which I hadn't even considered myself when mulling over the question.

[GoblinGibberish]

@GoblinGibberish:

Spoiler

Show

If you are a one-man party, plan with that primarily in mind. This affects all kind of choices, small and big.

For example, a small choice is the fighting style. I'd go with defense instead of dueling. Cause I am pretty certain that the damage this little +1 to AC will be sparing me on average each round, will be greater than the extra damage I will be inflicting each round with dueling. That's cause the enemies will have no other targets, so all their attacks are aiming at you. 5% of the average damage that all the living enemies deal per round, will be greater than +4 (or +6 even, depending on how you will be using your bonus action) weighted down by hit chance.

Let's talk about a big choice. Such as what feat you should look to take. Getting surprised will be pretty nasty, for sure. Cause action economy wont be on your side already, so losing more actions (by getting surprised) makes it even worse. So yes, alert is a good feat to take. I think there is something even worse than getting surprised though. Because if you get surprised and assuming you don't fall in one round (btw, you definitely want death ward on this character eventually; it's the illusion of safety, and it works definitely better if you are part of a party than in solo play, but I would still get it, because if you are playing solo then you need every contingency you can get your hands on), you could heal up with lay on hands and quicken some defensive buff that will help you win the fight. So, there is a way to get back into the fight, and possibly with good odds even (or you could just try to dimension door away and run). Do you know what is even worse? Failing a crucial save. Such as a save against a hold person, or against something that will restrain you. Even fear and poison wont be easy to deal with, as being affected by one of those (admittedly not that terrible conditions), it essentially means that the whole party's damage attacking capabilities are halved. Remember, you are the whole party. Any debuff hat sticks, hurts you a lot more than it would if you had allies. I guess you could always count on a quickened lesser restoration/ dispel magic to deal with some of the lesser effects (so that you don't lose your main action; anything that takes actions away from killing enemies will be very tough on you). But it's not only how much debuffs will hurt you. The problem is that against some such effects you wont have a way to reverse them, other than rolling a save at the end of each lost turn. There are no allies there to help you. So, boost your defenses. Especially your saves. Not with resilient. You want to boost all of your saves. I'd take the lucky feat. And I would also pick divine soul as my sorcerous origin (which helps with saves), though I would do that for other reasons (mainly for spirit guardians; don't worry about lacking darkvision, you can get it through warlock levels, which I would get, but more on that later; strength of the grave is nice, but not as nice as spirit guardians). That's not to say, don't take alert. I'd take alert too. And sooner than lucky. Getting surprised at lower levels is more of a danger than failing a crucial save imo. So, I'd take aler t first, then lucky. And warcaster before both of them. Vhuman helps with getting all those feats soon. Charisma boosts would be delayed, unfortunately, but I think it's worth it. If you are not worried too much about getting jumped by enemies, then skip alert completely (you could always ask your DM about that, so that you don't waste a whole feat on it; the initiative bonus is better during team play, for example when you want to throw an AoE before everyone gets in the way; it's not that great on playing solo; yes, losing turns is not good, but the outcome of your encounters will rely a lot more on using the right spells and tactics than on going as quickly as possible on the first round), or take it at the high levels (16 or 19), after warcaster, lucky and maxing your charisma. I want to emphasize this. Alert will be super useful if your DM goes hard on you. Don't prioritize it if getting surprised is not one of your biggest concerns, and in my metagaming opinion this depends a lot more on DM playstyle than on the fact that you are playing solo. (The DM's decision of having monsters surprise you is by far a more conscious one than just having monsters target weak points like your saves; which are not actually weak numerically, but solo play does make them a weak point; there will be saves that you simply cannot afford to fail.)

Build for defense. Similarly to why I would prefer defense over dueling, I would prefer anything that halves the enemies' attacking capabilities than something that boosts my own damage. That's because in all likelihood (ie unless you are fighting duels), the enemies' collective damage output will outperform yours (possible exception to that is spirit guardians, that's why I would definitely look to take it in this character, either by going with the divine soul sorcerer's archtype -which has other boons as well- or by taking the crown oath -which does not have anything else major going in its favor for a solo game). So don't use bless, or haste or stuff like that. Use blur, or better yet, darkness (if you pick something like devil's sight that will allow you to see through it you will also get advantage on your own attacks, but that's the smaller of the two benefits that darkness will give you; warlock levels are good for a few more reasons). Remember that every enemy attacks targets you. And if the enemy damage is greater the one you can produce on your own single turn, then the best way to avoid it in a fair fight, is to tank it. So, build up your effective AC (remember that the shield spell is more useful the higher your effective AC is, in other words, using the shield spell plays well with imposing disadvantage on enemies' attacks). And build your concentration, since the base of your winning tactics (whether it will be through tanking or through continuous AoE damage from spirit guardians) rely on maintaining your concentration.

What if the enemies can see through blur/darkness? Or what if they can counter it by gaining advantage in some other way? In this case, your best bet, is to try to out damage the enemies. Here is where your spirit guardians comes in. You could really use this spell. And you could use it sooner rather than later (and anyway, divine soul offers more stuff than going crown paladin). Remember to dodge if necessary on subsequent turns. Don't risk your hp and concentration against several enemies (that collectively can strike hard), if spirit guardians is doing a good job for you.

Ranged attackers will be a problem. That's the main reason I would recommend taking 2 warlock levels (and definitely no more than 5, cause you need the aura improvements and the 9th level spells). Upgrading your ranged attack is very important, when you are the whole party. No allies to take care of annoying archers or flying enemies while you are focusing on the melee ones. You need to be able to do that too. Kiting could also be useful too when you get the chance to do it. I wouldn't discount teleports though. I would for sure grab dimension door. Cause if you are up against some spellcasting monster, and since you have nova in smite, which is a good way to deal with casters, and since you want to avoid taking the chance to fail a save if you can, getting dimension door, even if it was only for quickening it and following it up with an attack action and smites on top, would be reason enough for me to get it. Meaning, sometimes you will really need to prioritize which enemies you want to take out. Smite alone is not enough for this. You need to pair it with mobility. Ideally in one turn too, which you can thankfully due because of quicken. But it's not only that. Dimension door is also good for retreat. Don't discount that.

The other reason why I like the warlock levels, is because they will get you two 1st level slots that will recover on a short rest. Now, depending on how many short rests you take, this could be 4, 6, or even 8 more castings of shield per day. Fighting solo, you are definitely going to need these extra castings. I feel very confident in saying that. And of course, if you grab the warlock levels, no reason not to make them hexblade for the boost in melee attacks. I'd take agonizing blast and devil's sight as invocations. You need the boost in your ranged attacks, and darkness you can see through is a very nice upgrade on blur. I'd postpone the warlock levels at least until after getting 6 levels in paladin (extra attack and the aura), and 5 levels in sorcerer (spirit guardians; you can use blur instead of darkness till you get devil's sight). If you start with a 15 (or lower) str score, it's tempting to grab the first warlock level instead of sorcerer 5 (and thus delay sprit guardians by 1 level), when you will have also gained the extra attack; more importantly, when GFB gets a boost. Maybe do that if you think that blur is carrying you fine at these levels (it most likely will), so you wouldn't mind accessing a good AoE for just another level. No need to rush the 2nd warlock level though.

I am debating stealth. Being stealthy would be all kind of awesome (mostly for out of combat stuff, but not bad in combat, if having a decent stealth means that you can get a surprise round at least against some of the enemies, or better yet, if it means that you can start a fight from a distance if that seems like a good idea; remember to use cover or concealment in this case). But I don't think dropping your AC by 2 points is worth it, and I really don't think MAM is worth taking before warcaster, lucky and cha bumps. It might be, though there is perhaps another way to go about it. Enhance ability. Normally I don't like this spell and I wouldn't take it. But since I wouldn't like to lower my AC, and since I think that having a decent stealth could be of use (especially after you get devil's sight), I would try to see if I could fit enhance ability into my list of sorcerer spells. This means that you'll have to train stealth (prioritize dex to wisdom), and basically all that enhance ability does is that it cancels the disadvantage from wearing a heavy armor. Not sure about this one, but mentioning it as an idea.

Regarding stats. First of all you have to decide if you want to rely on a str item for being able to wear a heavy armor without any movement penalties, or if you wouldn't mind taking the speed penalty. Personally, I'd put a 15 (instead of a 16) on str (since I would be planning for the hexblade dip for other reasons anyway), so that I could save more points for my other stats (con, dex, wis; dex and wis might be tertiary stats for you, but they are pretty good stats as they affect important saves, important skills and initiative). I wouldn't go any lower than that, cause I don't want the speed penalty, and I don't like relying on items at all (also, athletics will be an important skill, cause remember, if an enemy gets to knock you prone, then every enemy attacking you from 5' is getting advantage; that's an easy way to cancel all of your defensive build up; btw, this is when you might actually want to use a spirit guardians and just dodge with every other action). But I don't it would be much worse if you went with a 13 in str. In fact, if you can count on getting and holding a str boosting item, this is the way to go. But in the end, this is entirely your decision to make, as you know the DM and thus you know better than anyone how risky it would be to depend on an item (that you might not get, or that might get stolen).

So, given vhuman (cause we want some feats fast, and also we don't want to delay our cha bumps for more than necessary; lack of darkvision is nicely solved by devil's sight, and getting devil's sight is not much of an issue since there is already a good reason to take 2 warlock levels, for agonizing blast and for the extra slots), I'll just propose two arrays. One with a str of 15 (as I would probably do it), and one with a str of 13 (as one should probably do it if they can count on a str boosting item). Remember, we pretty much know which feats we want to take (at least until level 15), so I am not counting on half feats to round out stats (this might be something I might consider doing once I get to level 16 or 19; probably 19, cause even in a game where I wouldn't prioritize alert, I would still take it at level 16 with this solo character).

STR 14 + 1 = 15 (7 points)
DEX 10
CON 14 (7 points)
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 15 + 1 = 16 (9 points)

I do value a +1 to both dex and wis more than a +1 to just con.
I am not sure how it would be best to split the points between dex and wis (leaning to valuing dex a little more, especially if I pick stealth, in which case passive perception might matter less), so I made them even.

STR 13 (5 points)
DEX 10
CON 15 + 1 = 16 (9 points)
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 15 + 1 = 16 (9 points)


* I think that relying on (expensive) minions (eg animate objects) is not that great if action economy is so much against you in the first place. But. If you think you can get enough downtime between adventuring days (so that you could control 4 undead with one 3rd level slot used on animate dead), then having some zombies follow you and make some of the enemies use their attacks on them, wouldn't be a bad idea. That's because 4 zombies for one 3rd level slot is pretty cheap, and also because you wont rely on them for damage, you will just rely on them taking some of the heat away (and zombies can do that well). If you can make it work that way, then I'd say that animate dead (assuming divine soul) is worth picking. Though never bring them into the kind of fights where you want to use a defensive buff like darkness or blur. You want them to be there for the kind of fights where you want to use spirit guardians (so fights where you cannot effectively shut down the enemy's damage, and you just try to kill them faster than they can kill you; in which case, tempting them to spend some of their attacks on zombies would be a good idea).

** You rely a lot on a few spells for winning fights. Dispel magic and counterspell from enemy casters will pose a problem. Normally you will want to prioritize these kind of enemies (smite the heck out of them), cause they can also hurt you very much with debuffs, but there might be cases where you simply cannot for whatever reason. Or there may be more than one of them. Remember that if someone tries to counterspell you, you can try to do the same to their counterspell (as long as you didn't use a bonus action spell during that turn, which is your turn, so be careful about that; avoid quickening important spells on which you rely when you think there is an enemy around who can counterspell you). But as you can counterspell their counterspell, so can they, in say, a scenario where someone casts dispel magic to get rid of your spirit guardians that is winning you the fight. If they cast dispel magic and you try to counter it, they have the option to counter your counterspell. Now, I don't imagine this thing will happen all that often (though it is probable for the DM to do it if you are doing it; and you should), but since you don't really really need any other metamagic aside for quicken (no real use for careful or twinned), you could opt to take subtle, if for nothing else, just so that you can win these counterspelling fights. Extended spell would have been nice used with something like death ward, aid and aura of vitality, but I would probably take subtle first. Cause spellcasting could probably hurt you more than brutes, so having one more edge against casters in subtle would be good.

Wow. You absolutely deserve your coffee! To be honest I didn't expect any response, and when I've read it today, I actually playtested some fights to avoid to write a "top of my head" reply.

What I have to say, is that you are right. Basically in all your points. The switch from Shadow Sorcerer to Divine Soul hurt a bit, but after I did further character planning, I found it reasonable RP wise. Also Lucky is simply amazing, don't know why I skipped it initially. Eldritch Blast on level 8 also opens up some early level issues with ranged fight, but unless every battle happens to occur on empty fields in broad daylight, with some battlefield / movement action control I should be covered on that regard. For a variant I was playing with the level 3 and 4 warlock dip, which would both cover early game ranged fights and the ominous Darkness / Devil's Sight combo, but also depletes spell slots pretty fast. Smite is just too damn fine to use slots on.

This is the result I have come up with: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19pmypSX4NINNRofeayE4g3lnaBG3UH5tOs05sBKmQoc/edit?usp=sharing

[Corran]

This is the result I have come up with: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19pmypSX4NINNRofeayE4g3lnaBG3UH5tOs05sBKmQoc/edit?usp=sharing

Looks good. Reverse gravity will be very fun once you get a flying speed (wings or mount). I'd keep absorb elements and dimension door till the end, cause they remain useful at later levels. I'd also look at heal. Your spell selection for the higher level slots is a bit crowded, so I'd probably look first there to remove something to make room for these spells. Mirror image will probably burn very fast (better on skirmishers and casters, not great on anyone directly engaging the enemies), so if you see it isn't working for you don't be afraid to retrain it (it will be best for when you are up against one tough brute, but you already have smite/ wrathful smite and vow of enmity for these occasions).

Something I forgot to mention about darkness. The main benefit it has over blur (which I'd prefer to mirror image, though I would eventually retrain it to darkness; keep in mind, with alert in play you are already being attacked with disadvantage, even if you cannot yet see through your own darkness, so don't be afraid delaying your 2nd warlock level if you want), is that it does not allow you to be targeted by spells that require of the caster to see the target. That includes some very scary spells, but it will also work great if say, you are fighting several cultists who use sacred flame instead of weapon attacks.

[LightningStrike]

Hello! As someone starting out in D&D itself (though I've been reading around it for the part couple of years), I've been using this thread to guide the build of my paladin to-be-sorcadin, Brigid, as my first character. (Yes, I know. I like to throw myself in at the deep end with these things.) It has been immensely helpful; thank you to Gastronomie for creating it! However, I now have a couple of questions and so have emerged from my lurking state to assume my true accounted form! To the points, then:

- Reading through the first few pages of the thread, the consensus for the main trade-off between Paladin 2-3/Sorcerer 17-18 and Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14 seems to be access to Level 8 and 9 Sorcerer spells (Wish) vs. Extra Attack and Aura of Protection; of the two, I currently intend to go for the former (Phoenix Sorcerer is pretty anti-synergistic with Aura of Protection...). Looking through my Player's Handbook, though, seems to suggest to my eyes that this limitation shouldn't exist. From the multiclassing spell slot table, a Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14 would reach a spell level of 17, giving them access to a Level 8 and a Level 9 spell slot. Meanwhile, the Sorcerer's 'Spellcasting' section reads that 'when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which also must be a level for which you have spell slots'. Though one isn't learning new spells by that point, I'm not sure why it wouldn't be possible to learn a redundant lower-level spell beforehand and then exchange it for a desired 8th or 9th Level spell upon reaching the multiclass spell level to give you a spell slot for it. Assuming that I, somebody with all of a few weeks of D&D experience, haven't made a major breakthrough in sorcadin builds missed by countless experienced players, could somebody explain to me why this doesn't work?

- How do people tend to roleplay the need for a free hand to use material components? I understand how this works mechanically - drop weapon for free, use material component as part of spellcasting action/bonus action, pick up weapon again as item interaction - but constantly dropping your weapon and then leaning over to pick it back up feels a bit silly in-universe, especially in the middle of close combat. For Brigid, I've been thinking of having her attach her warhammer's haft to her gauntlet by a fine chain so it doesn't fall all the way to the ground each time but I'm curious about how other people have done it in the past!

[Gignere]

Hello! As someone starting out in D&D itself (though I've been reading around it for the part couple of years), I've been using this thread to guide the build of my paladin to-be-sorcadin, Brigid, as my first character. (Yes, I know. I like to throw myself in at the deep end with these things.) It has been immensely helpful; thank you to Gastronomie for creating it! However, I now have a couple of questions and so have emerged from my lurking state to assume my true accounted form! To the points, then:

- Reading through the first few pages of the thread, the consensus for the main trade-off between Paladin 2-3/Sorcerer 17-18 and Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14 seems to be access to Level 8 and 9 Sorcerer spells (Wish) vs. Extra Attack and Aura of Protection; of the two, I currently intend to go for the former (Phoenix Sorcerer is pretty anti-synergistic with Aura of Protection...). Looking through my Player's Handbook, though, seems to suggest to my eyes that this limitation shouldn't exist. From the multiclassing spell slot table, a Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14 would reach a spell level of 17, giving them access to a Level 8 and a Level 9 spell slot. Meanwhile, the Sorcerer's 'Spellcasting' section reads that 'when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the sorcerer spells you know and replace it with another spell from the sorcerer spell list, which also must be a level for which you have spell slots'. Though one isn't learning new spells by that point, I'm not sure why it wouldn't be possible to learn a redundant lower-level spell beforehand and then exchange it for a desired 8th or 9th Level spell upon reaching the multiclass spell level to give you a spell slot for it. Assuming that I, somebody with all of a few weeks of D&D experience, haven't made a major breakthrough in sorcadin builds missed by countless experienced players, could somebody explain to me why this doesn't work?

- How do people tend to roleplay the need for a free hand to use material components? I understand how this works mechanically - drop weapon for free, use material component as part of spellcasting action/bonus action, pick up weapon again as item interaction - but constantly dropping your weapon and then leaning over to pick it back up feels a bit silly in-universe, especially in the middle of close combat. For Brigid, I've been thinking of having her attach her warhammer's haft to her gauntlet by a fine chain so it doesn't fall all the way to the ground each time but I'm curious about how other people have done it in the past!

Spells known is based on class levels not character levels. It’s right there in the multiclass section that you treat your spell casting classes separately when learning spells. To be clear you have higher level slots as MC character so you can upcast spells but you would not have any higher level spells known.

As for free hand use a two hander, get warcaster, subtle meta, get gem on weapon from Xanathars, or cast then draw weapon.