What is this "trip build" I keep hearing about?

[Tyger]

Complete git when it comes to optimising, so I am sure that I am missing something here, but what exactly is the trip build that people keep talking about.

I mean, other than: Reach Weapon + Improved Trip + Combat Reflexes + relatively high STR, what else do you really need to effectively utilize trip? Heck, you don't even need Reach or Combat Reflexes, they just make it nicer. :)

[Arbitrarity]

You need something to threaten close squares, extra AOO gathering (Karmic strike, robilar's gabit, defensive sweep, thicket of blades), knockdown, and it's nice to have stand-still. Also nice to have a way of extending reach. And anything that boosts trip checks is gold.

[RTGoodman]

Getting Enlarged via either an item or a friendly spellcaster will help out some.

[Krrth]

Using some of the Oriental Adventures weapons might work as well. I've got a monk using a Kusari-Gama(reach AND up close) working on a trip build, and seems to be doing well.

[Arbitrarity]

A kusari gama is just a light spiked chain with slashing.

TWF one with a whip sounds funny to me.

[Krrth]

A kusari gama is just a light spiked chain with slashing.

TWF one with a whip sounds funny to me.

True, but it works. In this case, since we're using the various feats from OA, as well as the martial form bonuses, it seemd to be more appropriate.

[horseboy]

I went with Str 16/ Dex 14 and Int 13 build. From there you take your ranged trip weapon of choice (mine is guisarme). Take Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Trip. This in and of itself is mean, then at 2nd level you take hold the line and you've got melee locked up. They charge, you trip, they stand back up, you knock them back down. Melee opponents never get to go. Couple this with a nice barbarian/scout/dread commando that can sprint from one end of the board to the other to take down ranged/magic users and you're golden.

Things to watch out for are things bigger than you (make sure the cleric keeps an enlarge person handy) things incorporeal (which are usually undead, and therefor the cleric's job) and 4 legged things. Those the mage hits with a ray of enfeeblement first and you're pretty much guaranteed to win combat.

[Aquillion]

(make sure the cleric keeps an enlarge person handy)

Enlarge person is only 500 xp to permanency. It is even just within the range where you can pay someone to permanency it on you (the spells are cast separately, one after the other, so have them cast enlarge person for 90 gp, then permanency it for 9*50 + 5*500 = 2950 gp, or a total of 3040 gp. Note that this will not work if your DM insists on combining the costs and counting it as a single 'spell', since spells with a cost of above 3000 gp are not generally available, but per RAW it seems pretty clear you wouldn't. And remember to tell them you'll want both spells 24 hours in advance so they can prepare them!)

Sure, it might get dispelled, but it's probably worth it at higher levels.

[horseboy]

Enlarge person is only 500 xp to permanency. It is even just within the range where you can pay someone to permanency it on you (the spells are cast separately, one after the other, so have them cast enlarge person for 90 gp, then permanency it for 9*50 + 5*500 = 2950 gp, or a total of 3040 gp. Note that this will not work if your DM insists on combining the costs and counting it as a single 'spell', since spells with a cost of above 3000 gp are not generally available, but per RAW it seems pretty clear you wouldn't. And remember to tell them you'll want both spells 24 hours in advance so they can prepare them!)

Sure, it might get dispelled, but it's probably worth it at higher levels.

Hmm, it's LG, so I'd have to plow through that 34 pages of errata to make sure.

[Skyserpent]

Okay, I got a build straight from good Ol' Logic Ninja a ways back, but it involved a lot of obscure feats and strange combos, Karmic Strike and a few others so that it goes like this:

If they come within 5 feet? Attack of Oppurtunity, if they hit you in melee, Attack of Oppurtunity, if they MISS you in Melee, Attack of Oppurtunity.

Then use this form to get your first attack of Op a trip attempt, then disarm. Once they're tripped they get some crazy penalties against disarm and such but all in all, they got destroyed. +45 to disarm or somesuch nonsense.

This was all done in order to use a Fighter 10 to beat a Warblade 10. The Warblade ate dirt.

[Prometheus]

Wolf animal companion :P

[Amphimir Míriel]

A kusari gama is just a light spiked chain with slashing.

TWF one with a whip sounds funny to me.

A Kusari-gama is a two handed weapon.

Edit: I know some idiot in WotC typed it as a one handed weapon, but still...

...And Spiked Chain is banned in my games anyway, it just destroys plausibility

[Vieux Vache]

The problem with the whip build is that you don't actually threaten any squares with it, so no AoO. The best way to go witht he trip is with a simple high dex fighter + spiked chain.

Feats: EoP chain, Weapon finesse, combat expertise, improved trip, and hold the line.

Now to fancy it up a notch you could splash levels of cleric for enlarge person. I also recommend using a large race such as the half Orger as presented in the RoD. That + enlarge gives you reach of 40ft. If you really want max it, a wu-jen has a spell that can make you colossal at 17th CL. But does one really need 160ft of reach?

[Tibor]

Most large sized races are not "humanoid" so they can't be enlarged with enlarge person. Also larger size does not improve reach.

Improved trip, Robilar's Gambit, Karmic Strike, Hold the Line, there's a ton of AoO feats that help the tripping build, but it all falls down once you start fighting things that fly without wings and you find yourself in a perdicament.

[Dhavaer]

Also larger size does not improve reach.

Wha? Larger creatures have longer reach.

[Skyserpent]

The problem with the whip build is that you don't actually threaten any squares with it, so no AoO. The best way to go witht he trip is with a simple high dex fighter + spiked chain.

Feats: EoP chain, Weapon finesse, combat expertise, improved trip, and hold the line.

Now to fancy it up a notch you could splash levels of cleric for enlarge person. I also recommend using a large race such as the half Orger as presented in the RoD. That + enlarge gives you reach of 40ft. If you really want max it, a wu-jen has a spell that can make you colossal at 17th CL. But does one really need 160ft of reach?

Not exactly the best set up ye got there...

Tripping is based on STR so Finesse really isn't that great.

And you can get the same effect of Spiked Chains with a Guisarme and Armor Spikes. Exactly the same threatened squares without wasting a feat.

(Then again, multiple enchantments can get pricy but anyway)

[Skyserpent]

Wha? Larger creatures have longer reach.

I think he's mixing that up with "Larger WEAPONS" as a Colossal Greatsword wielded by a Medium Creature will only have 5ft reach...

[Dhavaer]

I think he's mixing that up with "Larger WEAPONS" as a Colossal Greatsword wielded by a Medium Creature will only have 5ft reach...

Good point.

[Tibor]

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I did indeed mean that the weapon size increase does not increase the reach. There was a 40 foot reach mentioned, I assumed some one was taking into account both the character AND weapon reach increasing.

[Vieux Vache]

The 40ft reach mentioned was assuming a huge creature. But you are right on the humanoid thing. maybe animal growth instead? High Dex = more AoOs. And isn't trip stregnth or dex based, I'll look it up later.

[SpikeFightwicky]

I went with Str 16/ Dex 14 and Int 13 build. From there you take your ranged trip weapon of choice (mine is guisarme). Take Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Trip. This in and of itself is mean, then at 2nd level you take hold the line and you've got melee locked up. They charge, you trip, they stand back up, you knock them back down. Melee opponents never get to go. Couple this with a nice barbarian/scout/dread commando that can sprint from one end of the board to the other to take down ranged/magic users and you're golden.

Things to watch out for are things bigger than you (make sure the cleric keeps an enlarge person handy) things incorporeal (which are usually undead, and therefor the cleric's job) and 4 legged things. Those the mage hits with a ray of enfeeblement first and you're pretty much guaranteed to win combat.

Actually, you can't use an AoO to trip someone who has provoked by taking a move action to stand up. AoOs take place before the action, so you get a free hit in, but you can't trip him, since he's still on the ground. Then once you've attacked, he stands up, and can 5-ft. step next to you then attack.

[Droodle]

Enlarge person is only 500 xp to permanency........Sure, it might get dispelled, but it's probably worth it at higher levels.

Actually, Enlarge is a terrible spell to permanency. Cities, dungeons, tunnels, doorways.......are all gonna be a bit of a problem for an enlarged character. Then there are all the equipment problems you'll be running into. You basically have to choose between never, ever taking off your armor or putting down your weapon or becoming utterly useless if someone slaps you with a dispell.

[Arbitrarity]

A Kusari-gama is a two handed weapon.

Edit: I know some idiot in WotC typed it as a one handed weapon, but still...

...And Spiked Chain is banned in my games anyway, it just destroys plausibility

Actually, worse. In the Variant Asian section of DMG, it's a light weapon. Really.

[Keld Denar]

Hmm, it's LG, so I'd have to plow through that 34 pages of errata to make sure.

As a vet LG player, I can assure you that permanancy is straight up banned from being castable. It is learnable, but only under the caveat that it only be cast during magic item creation. So, no permanant enlarge in LG, sorry.

Tripping builds are pretty hard to pull off in LG anyway, due to the somewhat limited access to magic items, and the overwelming prelavance of large sized or larger creatures written into most mods. I have a level 11 LG spiked chain guy who is on the verge of retraining imp trip into melee weapon mastery so I can power attack for more damage, because when you drop someone that way, they don't get back up.

[Aquillion]

Most large sized races are not "humanoid" so they can't be enlarged with enlarge person. Also larger size does not improve reach.

Er... let's see. The only large sized humanoids printed, according to http://www.imarvintpa.com, are werebears, weretigers, and werewolf lords, all in their animal or hybrid form (yes, they still count as humanoids even in hybrid or animal form.) You'd want to use hybrid form to combine the size with your reach weapon. Naturally the LA is a bit of an issue there, but as a werebear you'd get a totally absurd +16 strength bonus when in hybrid form, which would help the build a lot. Advantages to this include the fact that you can have large size whenever you need it while avoiding the issues of squeezing into small areas; it can't be dispelled; and you can stack it with enlarge person when you want to get really sick.

[Nightblade]

If you want to be really nasty, the Spiked Chain Fighter -> Master of Chains is really nasty. Spiked Chain Fighter and Power Attacking Barbarian with a Greatsword can spell trouble really quickly for any opponents within their range

[Callix]

If you want to be really nasty, the Spiked Chain Fighter -> Master of Chains is really nasty. Spiked Chain Fighter and Power Attacking Barbarian with a Greatsword can spell trouble really quickly for any opponents within their range

So does Batman, and he has a bigger range What gets really insane is when you get to use Shock Trooper and Weapon Finesse in the one build. And three attacks on an ubercharger, and no charge to boot, has really ruined his day. Chuck in a readied attack, and they are in one helluva mess. The trip build is :
1. Improved Trip
2. Spiked Chain feats (Weapon Focus is slightly useful here)
3. Feats that generate AoO's (Combat Reflexes, Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades))

[Skyserpent]

Actually, you can't use an AoO to trip someone who has provoked by taking a move action to stand up. AoOs take place before the action, so you get a free hit in, but you can't trip him, since he's still on the ground. Then once you've attacked, he stands up, and can 5-ft. step next to you then attack.

Which is why you DISARM.

The tripping combo works best with Disarming because not only are their melee combatants on the floor, they are also functionally weakened by their lack of a weapon. Nonetheless, Monks, Flyers and beasties with multiple legs/no weapons/both are a bit more trouble.

[Citizen Joe]

The Permanent-Enlarge also has a minor problem with your equipment. Although it does grow with you, as soon as it leaves your possession it shrinks back down to normal size. I'm going to assume you won't always have all your equipment equipped... like when sleeping... so you'd need to get actual large sized equipment, which isn't readily available. Now if it gets dispelled, you shrink but your gear doesn't. I think your best route would be enlarge person potions or a command word activated item. That allows you to be big when you need to be and normal when that's best... You could even pull double duty with a reduce person combined with it. Should probably be a cape or belt or something...

EDIT: looks like the Enlarging cloak would cost about 4000 gp (+4000 gp to add the shrinking effect).
Yes, that's right. For a mere 4000 gp, you too can become Bane and go up against the Batman wizard.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Which is why you DISARM.

The tripping combo works best with Disarming because not only are their melee combatants on the floor, they are also functionally weakened by their lack of a weapon. Nonetheless, Monks, Flyers and beasties with multiple legs/no weapons/both are a bit more trouble.

I very much agree (was just stating that Horseboy's idea of a 'trip-lock' maneuver doesn't work). Personally, I prefer disarm. It 'should' easier to disarm than to trip anyways (plus the spiked chain gives a bonus to disarm) since BaB goes up faster than strength, and you can use dex to disarm. One of my funest characters was a bard who used a whip to disarm opponents (improved disarm and weapon finesse gave me a +12 disarm roll at level 4, +14 while inspiring.... not too bad considering an ogre has a disarm check of +16), plus was a very able caster/healer.

Of course, you can trip more enemies than you can disarm, so both maneuvers are useful.