Elven Sleep Immunity and Sleep-related Plots

[Rusvul]

I'm running a game in which the party falling asleep will be relevant in the way an encounter is set up. (Based on the Fiannaíocht of Irish mythology.) Basically, a ghost-goblin-dragon thing plays music and people fall asleep. The idea is that this happens once, then the PCs prepare for it, and the second time they're immune to the effect. But some of the party consists of elves. This is, clearly, problematic. On the one hand, saying the effect bypasses elven racial immunity seems cheap and railroad-y, but on the other, I'm trying to stay as close to the Fiannaíocht (where possible) while still running a fun adventure. What do I do?

(As a general rule, I avoid invalidating things players have worked to resist or negate. If my story relies on the party getting knocked out, but someone took the Diehard feat, tough, they worked for that ability and it's wrong of me to take it from them because plot. However, the elven sleep immunity isn't something my players worked for- heck, they're mostly newbies, I doubt they even know it's a thing.)

[Trask]

What I would do is make it so the Elf characters can feel themselves becoming drowsy and slowly falling asleep but not instantly like the other characters. They see everyone falling asleep around them and have a little time to react but the power of the sleep magic is too strong even for elven blood to resist.

This way you keep the resistance to sleep intact and dont invalidate someones racial ability but at the same time get to make your mystical monster cool and powerful. I dont think anyone would object to this really, its not too dissimilar from very powerful darkness spells making even races with darkvision blind.

[Geddy2112]

Does it have to be sleep? What about some form of power anesthetic/sedation effect? What if it skips the whole sleep part and just puts them into a comatose state.

I assume that in most settings, sleep magic works on things that have a biological need for sleep, and it just makes the creature's body induce sleep. Elves being immune to sleep could simply mean that magic cannot act on them this way. This effect could render living beings unconscious by other means. Sleep is a very particular form of unconsciousness in biological organisms, but certainly biological organisms can be set into torpor/unconsiousness/coma/hibernation and a multitude of other things that are not formal "sleep".

Obviously this won't help if there is some plot related dream, but they can always have that later when they choose to naturally sleep or whatever rest state their particular biology requires.

[Cernor]

I dont think anyone would object to this really, its not too dissimilar from very powerful darkness spells making even races with darkvision blind.

Erm... It is. It really is. The difference being Elves are specifically called out as being immune to magical sleep, so you're completely invalidating their choice of race: on the other hand, seeing in the dark normally (I won't say always, since I'm not an expert by any means) excludes magical darkness. In my mind, the attitude of "You have a cool thing, which I'll ignore in the only likely scenario it comes up" just seems... Wrong.

That being said, I entirely agree that they should still suffer some effects from it: maybe they need to save vs. being charmed, or dazed, or made drowsy (hefty penalties to rolls rather than complete unconsciousness).

Or even give them nice things and make the elves entirely unaffected, so the Fiannaíocht has to find other means to achieve its goal. Perhaps it has to (gasp!) talk to them, and prevent their interfering through reasonable discourse!
(The horror!)

[gtwucla]

What do you think about splitting the party? It might require a little more work than you want, but you could introduce a scenario where the non-elf party members immediately fall asleep, leaving the elf parties to try and wake their friends. When they can't they follow the music or some visual effect, or combination thereof. Then come up with a hallucinogenic/illusion scenario that gets more and more psychedelic as they near the source of the sleep spell. Ultimately an illusion effect can have the same result as dreams, but you could have two contrasting dreams that play off each other. Could be fun.

caveat: Create your own illusion spell if one doesn't fit.

[Hawkstar]

I'm running a game in which the party falling asleep will be relevant in the way an encounter is set up. (Based on the Fiannaíocht of Irish mythology.) Basically, a ghost-goblin-dragon thing plays music and people fall asleep. The idea is that this happens once, then the PCs prepare for it, and the second time they're immune to the effect. But some of the party consists of elves. This is, clearly, problematic. On the one hand, saying the effect bypasses elven racial immunity seems cheap and railroad-y, but on the other, I'm trying to stay as close to the Fiannaíocht (where possible) while still running a fun adventure. What do I do?

(As a general rule, I avoid invalidating things players have worked to resist or negate. If my story relies on the party getting knocked out, but someone took the Diehard feat, tough, they worked for that ability and it's wrong of me to take it from them because plot. However, the elven sleep immunity isn't something my players worked for- heck, they're mostly newbies, I doubt they even know it's a thing.)

Q:"How do I railroad my players without feeling like I'm railroading my players?"
A: "Don't railroad your players."

Re-work the encounter with YOUR knowledge that the ghost/goblin/dragon's trick will not work on the elves. How would the monster react to its prey being already immune?

Your player's characters may not have worked for that immunity, but their parents did (And anyone who chose to play as an Elf gets the immunity because they sacrificed other racial features. Would you eliminate the "Diehard" feat from a player for an encounter because it's his Human Bonus Feat?)

[SethoMarkus]

Ignoring the notion others seem to have that you are looking to railroad without feeling guilty, I think there are several ways you can accomplish what you want without railroading. Some if them take a while to come into effect, though, so bare with me.

First, as others have suggested, have Aillén use more than just magical sleep. Music is the key here, so perhaps treat it like a Bardic music use of Fascinate. The suggestion the beast uses is "go to sleep", which won't work on the Elves, but they are still fascinated and can be incapacitated with some other means.

Second, perhaps the magic spear Finn uses to stay awake imparts the same magical aura that Elves naturally have. In this case, the Elves will not be incapacitated by Aillén, in fight alongside the keeper of the spear. I don't know exactly how you are planning on implementing this encounter, so this may or may not be an answer you seek, but at least it might help reconcile the plot-mechanic discrepancy.

Third, and this one takes time, introduce magical sleep effects earlier in the campaign. Have the PCs fight against enemies that attempt to magically put the characters to sleep, but the Elves are immune. Show that normally Elves DO enjoy the benefit of this racial feature. That will make it all the more ominous when Aillén renders them helpless. You'll need to make sure your players enjoy a cinematic approach and trust you, however.

Anyway, I hope this helps some. Best of luck! And please let us know how things turn out! I'm currently running a campaign heavily influenced by Celtic/Irish/Scottish/Welsh myths as well, and would love to see how the Fenian Cycle plays out for you!

[TheFamilarRaven]

While I'll admit that it could be considered a sleep effect, instead of the monster having a magical sleep effect, it instead could use something akin to the Suggestion spell, which compels creatures to sleep (or trance) "naturally". The above suggestion [heh], of treating the monster as having the Bard's ability to fascinate works well for this, as they can then combo up with a Suggestion.

EDIT: It should be important to note, that the PC's should still receive a chance to save versus the effect. Otherwise, no matter how you play this out, you will be railroading. Your monster should have contingencies if it's main ploy fails. This is DnD land, not folklore, so the monster should not be totally helpless when its main schitck doesn't work.

[VoxRationis]

What I would do is make it so the Elf characters can feel themselves becoming drowsy and slowly falling asleep but not instantly like the other characters. They see everyone falling asleep around them and have a little time to react but the power of the sleep magic is too strong even for elven blood to resist.

This way you keep the resistance to sleep intact and dont invalidate someones racial ability but at the same time get to make your mystical monster cool and powerful. I dont think anyone would object to this really, its not too dissimilar from very powerful darkness spells making even races with darkvision blind.

Having a period of resistance to the sleep that is large enough to mention but not long enough for them to do anything is essentially railroading, but diverting them to a slightly longer track that takes a scenic route. If I pick a race whose features include an out-and-out immunity to something (not resistance, not +2 to saves vs., not "immune to non-magical X," but a blanket immunity to an effect) and my DM says that I suffer it just like the rest of the party, I'd feel rather cheated.

[Grim Portent]

You could just have the creature realize one of it's victims isn't going to fall asleep as a result of it's music and try to knock them out with a sap, dropping a tree branch on their head or similar sources of blunt trauma to the skull. It introduces more chances for the monster's plan to fail, but avoids just subverting the elves' sleep immunity.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Re-work the encounter with YOUR knowledge that the ghost/goblin/dragon's trick will not work on the elves. How would the monster react to its prey being already immune?

That thing's still awake? Omnomnomnom...

One way to do it might be to have the PCs make saves every so often, they fall asleep when they've failed a certain number, and suffer penalties for each save they fail up until then. Elves get a bonus, but sooner or later they'll fail enough to pass out, possibly having seen whatever's causing it.

I also like SethoMarkus's idea of having other sleep effects before that the Elves can ignore - think of V back at the end of #107 http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html where he's got Elven immunity to paralysis from Ghouls, but winds up surrounded by Ghasts instead. Maybe the Fiannaíocht sees the Elves still awake and has to change tunes to something that will affect them.

Or you could just go with it as it is, but have the Fiannaíocht something the Elves can't hurt without the rest of the party, or makes them feel they have to retreat and try and get the rest of the party out of there as well.

[Hamste]

Sleep immunity comes up maybe once a campaign due to how rare sleep effects are. I say just let the elves get away with being immune to it if at all possible. I second trying another way to knock them out either using poison or a non-lethal weapon if you want them to adventure in dream space.

It should be noted as well that they have spent resources on getting immunity. They essentially traded a feat and extra skill points for elven traits one of which is immunity to sleep. It may not have played a large part in their decision making but it was a factor.

[SethoMarkus]

Just as a note here, the Fiannaíocht is not a creature, it is a collection of stories of Celtic/Irish myth; the "Fenian Cycle".

The specific myth in question here is most likely the tale of Fionn and Aillén. Aillén mac Midgna is a phantom/beast similar to Grendel in Beowulf (in purpose, not appearance). Every Samhain (Halloween), Aillén would come to hall of a group of warriors of the High King as they were feasting, using magical music from a harp to put them to sleep, making them helpless. The beast would then kill some/all of the warriors.

Fionn, utilizing a magic spear that rendered him immune to the music, killed the phantom beast and became the new leader of a fabled group of warriors, starting his career as an Irish hero similar to King Arthur or Beowulf.


If the OP is wanting to stick close to this, some of the suggestions, while good in their own right, don't really fit. Aillén is cowardly, and does not directly attack. So using a sap or some other means won't work (as far as fitting the theme of the myth). Magical sleep won't work without railroading the players, although some players may be alright with that if they see it as good enough of a story. Adding in secondary effects may work, like a Suggestion rather than magical Sleep, which is neither supported nor denied by the myth (which plays it out similar to Bardic Music anyway). Depending on if there is going to be a Fionn NPC/DMPC or not (which I suggest against), that role can always be filled by the Elves instead of a human with a magic spear. They would have to choose one of that group to be the leader, then, but could work.

[Hamste]

So the solution to the myth was a magical spear and not ear plugs? Was hearing the song not the thing that caused the sleep but just the song itself? I have to ask as I would probably try ear plugs over a magical spear as the solution to music from magic harp causing me to sleep.

[Vinyadan]

So the solution to the myth was a magical spear and not ear plugs? Was hearing the song not the thing that caused the sleep but just the song itself? I have to ask as I would probably try ear plugs over a magical spear as the solution to music from magic harp causing me to sleep.

That was Odysseus facing the sirens. Be Greek in Greece, and Irish in Ireland: different people find different solutions. ;)

I think that the problem is: "how important to the plot are people falling asleep?". You don't need sleep to cause unconsciousness and incapacitation. Dreams are, in a certain way, a prolonged hallucination. So you could just pull off a large illusion with a side dish of hold person. People see things that aren't there, each isolated in their own illusion (/dream) and they believe they can move themselves in this dreamworld, while they actually are lying paralysed on the floor.

[LibraryOgre]

Options as I see them:

1) Change the effect. Instead of Sleep, make it a Hold/Paralysis effect. Or a helpless dancing effect. They're not immune to that, so you're not cheating. It does change some of it (since everyone is awake for it), but that can be part of the fun.

2) Specific overrides general. Elves are immune to sleep effects. This sleep effect overcomes their immunity. Says so, right on the tin. A bit cheap, but within the general rules.

3) Monster starts with sleep, changes tactics when those don't work. So, everyone but elves goes to sleep. Elves are trying to figure out what's going on, when the monster comes in and Paralyzes them, or makes them dance, or whatever.

4) KILL ALL ELVES.

Also, though, consider if you have a bard in the group. Depending on your system, the bard might be able to countersong any magical effect built on music.

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

Elves are presumably a lot less exotic than ghost-goblin-dragons, right? This creature has probably seen elves before, and there are other races in D&D with even harder sleep immunity, so the best angles would involve it being prepared to deal with a few non-sleeping stragglers. Letting him sing a follow-up verse specifically for the elves in the audience could constitute a reward without taking you too far off the rails. The second verse might require that he reveal himself, expend an interesting material component, or leave the elves conscious but immobile as he robs them blind.

If the creature doesn't necessarily work alone, you could even have a few lackeys lead the elves away ahead of time. Elves are notoriously elitist, so nobody will bat an eyelash at all of them having a private club meeting away from the human victims.

[Beneath]

So you're running an adventure based on a myth where the solution is to get a magic item that gives you immunity to sleep spells, and your problem is that some of the people are magic elves who have immunity to sleep spells built in, is that correct?

Like, if you inserted a sidhe hero who was immune to magic sleep effects into the myth, what would he do?

So what you're trying to do here is take away elves' weird elfy powers and make them humans with pointy ears so that a distinctly human plot can work for them, rather than adapting the plot to the characters. Maybe the monster hates elves, or avoids them. Maybe the adventure is tracking it down.

I probably wouldn't use the idea unless I was running for a group of new players, to whom "wait, my elf can stand watch since he's immune to sleep spells" is a clever plan, where the problem is happening to a bunch of all-human NPCs. That, or run it in a game where I've banned elves, or time it for a session where the elf player can't make. Otherwise, cute plot, doesn't work for a game where magic elves with built-in sleep immunity are a standard player character.

[Katrina]

Tangent: Does the Suggestion spell (or a similar effect such as Bardic Music), gain the "Sleep" Descriptor and thus trigger immunity, or would would need Immunity to Mind Effects (or Enchantment) to be immune to the Suggestion effect? I can see arguments both ways, and in my own games I would probably err in favor of the player, since that's the way I roll. But I am curious to hear what my fellow gamers would say.

[TheFamilarRaven]

Spoiler: Answer to Tangent

Show

It's the difference between forcing the elf to sleep (which they are immune to) via Sleep spell.

And giving them an irresistible, (well, if they fail their saving throw), suggestion to go to sleep. The magic is in the suggestion, not in the slumber. They same if the elf was under the effects of Dominate Person. The magic is in the command, not in the slumber.

I would say they are not immune to the latter.

[Herobizkit]

Does the ghost-goblin-dragon thing KNOW that Elves are immune to sleep? Is it intelligent enough to come up with a solution for dealing with pesky Seelie?

Sleeping Poison works. ^_^

[Hamste]

Spoiler: Answer to Tangent

Show

It's the difference between forcing the elf to sleep (which they are immune to) via Sleep spell.

And giving them an irresistible, (well, if they fail their saving throw), suggestion to go to sleep. The magic is in the suggestion, not in the slumber. They same if the elf was under the effects of Dominate Person. The magic is in the command, not in the slumber.

I would say they are not immune to the latter.

A suggestion to go to sleep would fail on the grounds that it isn't reasonable. They don't sleep, trancing instead and that is why they are immune to sleep effects. That would be like giving a human the suggestion to fly. Unless they have a magical way to it would be an unreasonable suggestion.

Similarly, an elf under a Dominate Person wouldn't be able to carry out the order as it is outside the limit of its abilities in a similar way that a human ordered to trance like an elf would not be able to carry out the order.

Now if the suggestion/order given was to trance the elves could try to do that but they can't sleep (assuming 3.5 elves)

[Vizzerdrix]

Yes. Do invalidate your players choices because nothing makes players feel relivent to a game like not mattering.

Find a way to get the story to take a direction you want. (1)Either give the elves a good reason to not be around when the humans get sleeped, (2)give them a reason to not follow the creatire, (3)or drop them into a trap if they do follow it.

1- have them follow some clues to an old grainery at night. The elves would have to be the ones to go because a tourch could ignite the grain dust.

2-their allies are unprotected and helpless. If the elves give chase, no one will be able to keep the tourches alight, and that is the only thing keeping the hungry rats in the shadows at bay.

3-the creature drops poisoned caltrops in narrow corradors as it flees. Dex or str 0 means you cant move, and most players will stop chase when they get stat damaged.

There ya go. Easy peasy.

[Segev]

Find a way to get the story to take a direction you want. (1)Either give the elves a good reason to not be around when the humans get sleeped, (2)give them a reason to not follow the creatire, (3)or drop them into a trap if they do follow it.

1- have them follow some clues to an old grainery at night. The elves would have to be the ones to go because a tourch could ignite the grain dust.

2-their allies are unprotected and helpless. If the elves give chase, no one will be able to keep the tourches alight, and that is the only thing keeping the hungry rats in the shadows at bay.

3-the creature drops poisoned caltrops in narrow corradors as it flees. Dex or str 0 means you cant move, and most players will stop chase when they get stat damaged.

There ya go. Easy peasy.

This is good advice. Don't try to force everyone to fall victim. The elves don't sleep? Great! This lets you pass more information to the players. But it also means the elves have a choice: do they take on this threat on their own? Or do they stay with their friends (and protect them, in case there's hostiles about)?

Or have the fey themselves be smart about it, if they do any scouting. They could notice the elves, and plan to spring while the elves are trancing. Put the non-elves on watch to sleep, and now the elves come out of trance to find their companions have fallen asleep on watch.

[TheFamilarRaven]

Now if the suggestion/order given was to trance the elves could try to do that but they can't sleep (assuming 3.5 elves)

Fair enough. However, where a direct command/suggestion to sleep may fail, I believe the suggestion could be worded in a reasonable way without directly saying "sleep".

"Y'know, you're getting really drowsy right now. Perhaps you should close your eyes, and drift into a peaceful dream..."

2 sentences. Worded to sound reasonable. No rules saying that elves DON'T get "sleepy", and 3.5 RAW supports the fact that elves do dream when they trance, (different kind of dreaming but still). This kind of suggestion would also work on a creature that sleeps normally.

Whether or not the creature would know they need to word it that way is another matter.... If they deal with elves frequently, then they probably would.

[Katrina]

Now if the suggestion/order given was to trance the elves could try to do that but they can't sleep (assuming 3.5 elves)

Valid ruling that I didn't consider due to the fact that my group has moved on to Pathfinder since almost immediately after it came out. Pathfinder Elves retain immunity to sleep effects and spells but are not listed to Trance or have the reduced need for sleep that it granted anywhere in their description. I believe that Dream effects are defeated by Sleep immunities in Pathfinder though, for what it is worth.

But yes, that seems valid for 3.5

And TheFamiliarRaven has a point, in that Suggestion specifically works differently based on wording.

[Talakeal]

Elves can supress their immunity to sleep. Just find a way to command or trick them into doing this and you are golden.

[Rusvul]

Thanks, everyone, for your input. I agree with most of your points, though applicability varies. (The carefully-worded Suggestion idea in particular is very clever, though at the end of the day the goal is to provide a fun experience for my players, not justify my encounters with RAW.)

I think what I'll do is have a non-sleep incapacitating effect (something akin to hold person + vivid hallucinations) with a saving throw of middling difficulty every round- against which I will grant Elves advantage (game is 5e) because, though not directly a sleep effect, it's similar enough that I think a bonus ought to apply. The idea is that the PCs (elves in particular) get a chance stay conscious a while, observe Allen the Burner living up to his name, and then wake later with a reason to hunt him down.

The difficulty I'm having is this. I'm used to running games for players who will take initiative, have goals, and move the story along. There, of course, the objective is to provide as open a game as possible, so that the players can do whatever interests them the most. However, this game is for a number of younger, less experienced players who aren't likely to do that. The expectation is that I run them through a fun story with ties to mythology and folklore, rather than provide a world for them to wander through. (I also have only a few months before another DM takes up the mantle- I'm running an adventure, not a campaign.) I'm trying to balance freedom with structure- trying to avoid both the railroad and the open field. Six-lane highway might be my objective here- one general direction to go in, lots of options in terms of how you go about it. (Any ideas on how to make that work would be greatly appreciated, since I'm kinda lost on that one.) I think the hold + hallucinations is a decent middle ground, so thanks once again! :)

[TheFamilarRaven]

If your players aren't motivated to go and kill the creepy thing that paralyzes people after they are witnesses to it, then have the local lord put out a call for heroes and mention a reward. If that still doesn't work then really there's not much you can do if you wanna keep them off railroad tracks while still continuing your plot.

[Rusvul]

In the past they've been cooperative enough when the plot hook is obvious- the desire to adventure, fight things, and (sometimes) be a hero is there- it's the knowing what to do part that might be tricky. I'm trying to stick to obvious hooks, but those can also come across as rather railroady.