Frozen Dwarf Hulk Smash!!!

[Person_Man]

Here's an interesting combo I stumbled across last night:

Fist of the Forest: Con to AC when unarmored. Increased unarmed damage. Ranger Skills and other minor bonuses, including a Ferocity effect that adds an attack and stacks with Rage. And the PrC can be entered early, as soon as ECL 5. Complete Champion.

Deepwarden 2: Replace Dex bonus with Con bonus to AC. Races of Stone.

Frostrager: Increased AC and unarmed damage when in Rage. Healed by Cold damage. Frostburn.


Putting this together:

Barbarian 1/Full BAB class 3/Fist of the Forest 1/Deepwarden 2/Frostrager 3

At ECL 10, you get:

Pounce (using the Complete Champion Barbarian variant).
Con to AC twice.
Healed by Cold damage.
Lots of other minor bonuses and perks.

Then you can finish out Frostrager and Fist of the Forest for other useful abilities, or head into some 10 level PrC (Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries? Frenzied Berserker?)

Have your best arcane caster friend take Energy Substitution (Cold) and dump Cold Fireballs into the middle of the battlefield. Buy some magic bracers or whatnot items to improve your AC even further - it'd be easy to get to 30-40ish by mid levels. A Ring of Evasion is a must if you don't pick it up from class levels somehow. Vow of Poverty is a great idea for this build if your DM is stingy on gold.

And using a Monk's Belt, Superior Unarmed Strike, and Improved Natural Attack, along with your unarmed damage increases from class levels, you can get some very respectable hurt going on.

This is a very interesting Tank build. The full combo kicks in relatively early in the build. You have full BAB, and all of your attacks count for Power Attack/Leap Attack. It's relatively simple and fun to play. All the fluff fits together. And while strong, there's nothing particularly game breaking about it. It's a great build for a new player who wants to punch stuff on the front lines without fear of death.

I'm thinking that 3 levels of Hexblade or Paladin of Slaughter would be the best entry, but thats only if you have a high Cha. Plus there are always wierd Skill requirements to worry about, so you'll probably need at least 1 level of something like Ranger or Dwarf Paragon.

Also, isn't there a PrC that grants you Dwarf as a racial type? With it, all sorts of weird combinations open up (A Shifter with Warshaper mixed in, an Orc with Headlong Rush, a Dragonborn with wings and diving charge attacks).

Thoughts? Ideas for best entry? Best path after ECL 10? Feats? Items?

Discuss.

[Citizen Joe]

Brown Mold (I think... checking... yes). It causes cold damage if you're within 5 feet of it... so constant 3d6 healing.

[AtomicKitKat]

Also, isn't there a PrC that grants you Dwarf as a racial type? With it, all sorts of weird combinations open up (A Shifter with Warshaper mixed in, an Orc with Headlong Rush, a Dragonborn with wings and diving charge attacks).

Thoughts? Ideas for best entry? Best path after ECL 10? Feats? Items?

Discuss.

Stoneblessed. Races of Stone. Conveniently, a 3 level class that can be entered as early as ECL 2.

Go with fleshing out Frostrager. It's only what, 5 levels? One-Two Punch, plus Snap Kick, you now have 3 bonus attacks(with the 1 from the FotF). Take it till you get the Rage, you now have 4 bonus attacks. Find some way to get Flurry(best if you can stack it to Monk 11's Flurry, but even without, 4 bonus attacks for -4 AB? Sign me up!).

[Missing Shoe]

That would be a very good tank build, especially if you are covered in brown mold constantly and/or have an ice mage in the party. I especially like the fact that you can dump dex now and not worry about your AC.

Although I kind of question the idea of CON to AC instead of DEX. Is it that your just so beefy that things cant penetrate your thick skin? Is your CON then limited by your max dex? So could you wear fullplate and have a Con of 20 and have the effects stack?

Sorry if those are answered in the links, my workplace blocks wizards.

[Citizen Joe]

I think it sort of works like natural armour... you beef yourself up and stand strong against an attack. The question really does become what kind of armour bonus is it? And if it stops your dexterity from working, that might be read as allowing sneak attacks. I dunno... I don't have or want the books in question... but that brown mold trick is da bomb! You don't even need a cold mage, a regular fireball will get absorbed by the brown mold causing it to double in size. Cold kills brown mold so ironically you'd have to cure the dwarf to kill the mold.

[JackMage666]

I think they Con to AC thing is kinda like Fast Healing or Damage Reduction. The attack hits, but is deflected cause you tough it out. But, you don't always tough it out, and sometimes take damage.

[Keld Denar]

I like it...talk about a symbiotic relationship. Just keep a couple torches around for care and feeding of your little buddy, and it's better than fast healing. I wonder if you could awaken the mold, and have it talk to you? Or just roleplay like it's talking to you.

"Thog not like you...Mouldy says he don't like you either...Thog smash you for Mouldy, because Mouldy not feeling so good right now"

You'd have to do something about going into cities. The fact that you could wipe out entire cities by carrying the mold around with you, and a whole cities worth of archers couldn't take you down is a bit sick and wrong.

As far as the con to AC thing, the way deepwarden works, is that you get the full con to AC, regardless of max dex bonus. That's the whole point of it. Not sure how fist of the forest works, but if it's similar, then you could have insane AC with fullplate and a shield. I'd feel a little wierd about using a shield and then punching with my other hand though. Just feels wierd mechanically.
EDIT: fist of the forest says unarmored only. Oh well. The deepwarden AC still works.

I have a question about the ferocity thing you mentioned in fist of the forest. Is that like boar's ferocity ability? The one that keeps you up even when you are negative? Combine that with delay death and your mold friend, and you could literally leap from the highest mountain into a spikey pit of lava and take a hundred bajjilion damage, and as long as you regen it before the delay death wears off, you are fine and dandy. That's cool (pun intended).

[AtomicKitKat]

I think it sort of works like natural armour... you beef yourself up and stand strong against an attack. The question really does become what kind of armour bonus is it? And if it stops your dexterity from working, that might be read as allowing sneak attacks. I dunno... I don't have or want the books in question... but that brown mold trick is da bomb! You don't even need a cold mage, a regular fireball will get absorbed by the brown mold causing it to double in size. Cold kills brown mold so ironically you'd have to cure the dwarf to kill the mold.

Actually, Fluff might > Crunch in this regard. When you Frostrage, your whole skin becomes icy and stuff, so unless you're keeping the mould uhh, "brown", it's going to die the moment you activate the Frostrage(which, ironically, is the only time cold is allowed to heal you, I think.)

[Person_Man]

WotC has given conflicting answers through Cust Serv as to whether or not the Deepwarden's Con to AC is limited by the Max Dex bonus to armor. On the various discussions about it on the Optimization board, most (but not all) DMs come down on the side of Yes, it is limited. Your Con bonus score replaces your Dex bonus to AC, but it does not circumvent any limits on it. I personally agree with that ruling.

But for this particular build, it doesn't matter, because the Fist of the Forest requires that you be unarmored. It explicitly works exactly like the Monk bonus to AC, but with Con instead of Wis.


The Fist of the Forest's Ferocity thing (I forget exactly what its called) adds +4 Dex (not much help there) and a natural bite attack which can be used at your full BAB when you make a full attack (which is every round, since you have Pounce). It can be used once per day at 1st level, and twice at 3rd (if you bother to take Fist of the Forest 2-3), specifically can be used at the same time as Rage, and lasts Con+3 rounds each time you use it.


Brown Mold is great if you can summon it somehow (or keep it in a Bag of Holding?), but otherwise it wouldn't work. Brown Mold is instantly killed by Cold damage, which means your friends couldn't dump Cold Fireballs on you, a far more efficient way of healing you and damaging your enemies at the same time. And you only heal with Cold damage when you Rage. (The Extra Rage feat is a must for this build).


Stoneblessed sounds like a great idea:

Shifter Barbarian 1/Stoneblessed 3/Fist of the Forest 1/Deepwarden 2/Frostrager 3/Warshaper 3, and now you have an additional +4 Str and Con, +5 reach, improved natural damage, and you're immune to crits!


Also, if you're interested in some weird Monk combo (I wouldn't suggest it, Monks are a trap for various reasons) you could go:

Half-Orc Paragon 3/Stoneblessed 3/Fist of the Forest 1/Deepwarden 2/Frostrager 3, and mix in Monk wherever you like. Half-Orc Paragon grants Rage, but doesn't have any alignment restrictions, which means you could play it while maintaining a Lawful alignment. I've used this trick to play a Paladin that then enters a Barbarian PrC before.

[Arbitrarity]

Hmm... monk's belt, + some duelist, would give CON to AC twice, INT to AC, WIS to AC. Become incoporeal, or be a nymph or somesuch, and add CHA to AC!

[Yechezkiel]

Also, if you're interested in some weird Monk combo (I wouldn't suggest it, Monks are a trap for various reasons) you could go:

Half-Orc Paragon 3/Stoneblessed 3/Fist of the Forest 1/Deepwarden 2/Frostrager 3, and mix in Monk wherever you like. Half-Orc Paragon grants Rage, but doesn't have any alignment restrictions, which means you could play it while maintaining a Lawful alignment. I've used this trick to play a Paladin that then enters a Barbarian PrC before.

Deepwardens have to be Dwarves.

[Arbitrarity]

Stoneblessed makes him effectively a dwarf.

[Yechezkiel]

Stoneblessed makes him effectively a dwarf.

That's madness! And something I did not know.

[Fax Celestis]

Barbarian 1/Wildshape Ranger 2/Stoneblessed 3/Fist of the Forest 1/Deepwarden 2/Frostrager 3/Wildshape Ranger +8 has some merit to it.

So does Dwarven Barbarian 1/Soulborn 4/Fist of the Forest 1/Deepwarden 2/Frostrager 2/Soulborn +10, with or without the Dwarven Soulborn sub levels.

[Darrin]

Brown Mold is great if you can summon it somehow (or keep it in a Bag of Holding?), but otherwise it wouldn't work. Brown Mold is instantly killed by Cold damage, which means your friends couldn't dump Cold Fireballs on you, a far more efficient way of healing you and damaging your enemies at the same time. And you only heal with Cold damage when you Rage. (The Extra Rage feat is a must for this build).

Could you cast "Awaken Ooze" on the Brown Mold and then give it some Elemental Savant levels so it gains resistance to frost damage?

[Citizen Joe]

You know, if you use some prestidigitation to turn the brown mold green... then slap on some growth so the dwarf (normally medium sized) becomes Large... maybe cast a warm fireshield on the brown mold... needs to be a familiar I think... Now you really do look like the Hulk.

[Hyfigh]

Shaolin Monk from Unapproachable East is 5 levels 5BAB and would give another flurry (I think, I'm AFB).

Something handy could be either figuring a way to get the cold Reserve feat (I have no idea what its called) or have your magic friend take it. Thats free cold healing all day long.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Pounce (using the Complete Champion Barbarian variant)

Sorry, fell asleap there.

[Khantalas]

Sorry, fell asleap there.

Well, Complete Champion has a variant that trades fast movement for pounce. Hopefully you didn't know what it was about and I am not a fool for telling you something you already knew.

[Wabbajack]

Cast "Awake Ooze" on the mold and let it take levels in Favored Soul, with level 17 it even gets wings which "he/her" can use to lift you in the air^^

[brian c]

Vow of Poverty is a great idea

I'm thinking about putting this in my sig.

[AtomicKitKat]

Ok, so I looked it up just now. 5 levels of Frostrager would give you the equivalent of 3 bonus attacks a round, for a total -2, cos the Rend would count as 2 attacks' worth of damage(less 1/2 Str Mod). Definitely worth taking all the way. If healing is a concern, get Race Uldra, Improved Frosty Touch Feat, and you should be able to heal yourself for as many HP as your DM will let you touch yourself in 6 seconds(while kicking ass with One-Two Kick).

[Person_Man]

I'm thinking about putting this in my sig.

lol

Sigh. Why am I always being misquoted by the media!

If you're an unarmored, unarmed build, AND your DM is stingy about handing out treasure, then Vow of Poverty is a great idea. Otherwise, like always, it sucks.


Also, for some reason I have the desire to have a brown mold animal companion for my next PC. I just have to resist the urge to name him "Mulder."

[AtomicKitKat]

Still got to find some way to make the Brown Mould avoid dying the moment you activate Frostrage. Of course, if you can find some way to keep yourself immersed in cold, that could work.

Well duh, I just remembered.

Blue Ice(or maybe Stygian Ice) armour does damage to you every round. Find some way to make say, a crown out of the stuff, and you will be fine(well, out of combat at least).

[PinkysBrain]

Barbarian 1

Don't underestimate the value of uncanny dodge.

[AtomicKitKat]

Ok, so I read it up again, and it seems if you can find a way to wield a weapon of Stygian Ice, then find a way to keep it cold all the time(otherwise, it starts falling apart), you should be taking 1d6 damage a round, which would be roughly equivalent to Fast Healing 1.75 while in the Frostrage.

[nooblade]

Don't underestimate the value of uncanny dodge.

But having Dex bonus to ac doesn't matter when the bonus is due to Con, or does it? Being flatfooted and unable to do the fortitude thing might make sense. Con to AC at all times would be worth another level, methinks.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (or at least a lot of progression in a class with it) might prevent healing cheese with a UMD Rogue sneak attacking with a wand or two with Ray of Frost.

[Keld Denar]

One big downfall about carrying around brown mold, is that you only heal from cold while raging. Therefore, the other 23.8 hours of the day that you arn't raging, you are going to be taking some serious frost damage unless you have somewhere to hide the mold (which would probably make it difficult to pull out when you want to rage). Unless you could get immunity to cold outside of rage, it's not really viable. Even with a ring or resist cold 10, 3d6 would still hit you for an average of a couple points per round. Cold resist 15 wouldn't even make you fully immune, and if you have to roll the damage over a day of travel, you'd still be taking enough damage that you'd either have to heal a couple times, or rage to fill your hp back up, or risk being at low hp if you happen to meet a random encounter.

If you could get immunity to cold, however, it would be a really neat concept!

In related news, I've heard of some smart liches covering themselves and their corporial undead minions with various mold such as brown or yellow. Yellow in particular is very nasty.

[Funkyodor]

Reading this I'm not sure which are PrC levels and which are normal Class levels. Because you might want to look at your exp penalty for multi-class level disparity. Unsure what it would be from the above posted builds. (Ex. Unless Wildshape Ranger +8 is a PrC then just that and Barbarian 1 is gonna give you a high exp loss.)

[Kurald Galain]

This needs the "obtain familiar" feat (or, I suppose, a level in sorcerer). The familiar is, of course, your Mold.