Opinions, can this work?

[CyberWyld]

Hello there, I'm new to the forums and glad that I was directed here. This seems to be a nice collection of fellow geeks. :) I have been playing D&D with my current group for 3 years now and we are really a lucky group. We all get along very good. Okay so on to the thread purpose.


I pride myself on making "cool characters" over ones that are amazingly powerful or hell...even useful. :P My current idea for a character is that of a Divine archer. (Same thing as an Arcane Archer but uses Divine spells) Initially I had decided I was going to use a longbow...but here recently I've been looking at dual wielding pistol style repeater crossbows. The inspiration for this would be an old west gunfighter. I've spoken with my DM about it and he's even suggested tweaking the crossbows a bit so that the support front side of the crossbow collapses and fights into a hip holster. Combine with the divine archer abilities I think this character would not only be "cool" but very useful in combat. Any suggestions on the build...or feats I should take? I've got a rough idea, but I'm curious as to what other D&D folks think. I'm sure most of you are far more noligable then myself. Thanks for your help in advance.



hasta

[Magi_Ring_O]

Where did you even find a Divine Archer PrC?

[Borogove]

All repeating crossbows need two hands to load, unfortunately. So you should probably talk to your gm about that, too.

Edit: actually, scratch that. The core rules don't contain repeating hand crossbows, so either they're in a supplement, in which case I have no idea what the rules for them are, or they're going to be completely home-brewed, in which case it doesn't matter.

[CyberWyld]

Well in NWN's I kind of made it up with the addition of the Zen Archery feat. Basically I took cleric lvl's then one lvl of bard, then Arcane Archer lvl's. This resulted in a character that needed a high str, wis. for spells and +hit (Zen Archery) and the one lvl of bard to fill the *must be able to cast 1st lvl arcane spells requirement for the class. For whatever reason the *magic domain would not fullfil this in the game engine. Once I got going in PnP D&D again I have always wanted to try this build in some form or fashion.

That being said, I found a write up for the Arcane Archer with some folks over at seculargames.com and they had some very nice "spin-offs" of the Arcane Archer, to include the Divine Archer. They even did a write up for a very balanced Arcane Archer Core Class. My plan is to play a Divine Archer Core Class with the dual weilding of the Repeaters. Hopefully that answers your question.



hasta

[CyberWyld]

All repeating crossbows need two hands to load, unfortunately. So you should probably talk to your gm about that, too.

Edit: actually, scratch that. The core rules don't contain repeating hand crossbows, so either they're in a supplement, in which case I have no idea what the rules for them are, or they're going to be completely home-brewed, in which case it doesn't matter.

I dont' have my books with me atm because I'm at work. But I was pretty sure there was a smaller version of the repeater X-bow. I do know that in the description of the weapon it says that it can be fired one handed, but requires 2h's to reload. Which is basically what you just said. But I'm sure you're right, we'll have to "homebrew" some of this to a small extent. The basic idea though you think is solid?



hasta

[brian c]

the one lvl of bard to fill the *must be able to cast 1st lvl arcane spells requirement for the class. For whatever reason the *magic domain would not fullfil this in the game engine.

That's actually a very smart game engine. Even though the spells may be from the Sorc/Wiz spell list, they're technically Divine spells because they're being cast as Cleric spells.

Arcane/Divine classification of spells is based on the class used to cast it not on some inherent property of the spell itself.

[CyberWyld]

That's actually a very smart game engine. Even though the spells may be from the Sorc/Wiz spell list, they're technically Divine spells because they're being cast as Cleric spells.

Arcane/Divine classification of spells is based on the class used to cast it not on some inherent property of the spell itself.

Good to know, guess those kids at Bioware know what they're doing. :) Greatest game of all time at any rate. :P Back to the build questions!!! Thanks for the post Brian.



Hasta

[Quietus]

That's actually a very smart game engine. Even though the spells may be from the Sorc/Wiz spell list, they're technically Divine spells because they're being cast as Cleric spells.

Arcane/Divine classification of spells is based on the class used to cast it not on some inherent property of the spell itself.

Actually it has more to do with NWN not actually giving the "Imbue Arrow" ability. Instead, it gives you an arrow-fireball 3/day. Thus, by taking a single level of an arcane caster class you fulfill the requirements of "casting arcane spells".

[Borogove]

In terms of viability, there are two main things to bear in mind.

1. Arcane Archer is a remarkably weak class. As in, not actually better than taking fighter levels instead. Almost all of its abilities are both not very good, and are 1/day. The exception to this is the enhancement bonus on arrows, which is instead more or less completely useless, given the existence of the greater magic weapon spell.

2. One of the biggest advantages of being a cleric archer is using divine power and righteous might to boost your strength, which helps make up for archery's low base damage. Unfortunately, this doesn't work with crossbows.

Other than that? Cleric archers work, and dual wielding crossbows looks cool, even if it isn't exactly mechanically efficient.

[Damionte]

With a custom built PRC I think the idea has a bit of merit.

At the same time though you could go the same route with a combination Cleric/Ranger. dual class the cleric and ranger for a bit and then use the "spell casting levels" of ranger as if they were a prestige class.

Or you coul djust be a ranger, they cast devine spells and shoot bows all on thier own without having to make anything up.

Are you going to be required to hodl down the clerics role in a party?
I'm asking because it may be easier to help if we know which aspect will be more important mechanically to the character.

Making an archer is easy. 2-4 feats and boom you're all done. Making an effective cleric though is not that easy. If you want the clasic feel of a cleric but as an archer, you just play a straight cleric and take a couple archery feats. "Personally I'd go crossbow with a cleric."

Oh here's an idea. Isn't there a sneaky like cleric and palladin prestige class in Complete Adventurer? Dang what's that class called... (flips through books)

SHADOWBANE STALKER

It's a cleric rogue hybrid, that maintains full cleric casting progression. :) One good feature of the class is that it doesn't require any feats to get into, just ranks in religion, sense motive, and I think search. So you can use your precious and rare feats on archery stuff. Lots of synergy. would make for a good X-Bow sniper class. Or a close in hand X-bow chow-yun-fat wanna be. :)

Hmmm.

If you're human.
3 lvl's of cleric and two rogue and you're into the class @ lvl 6. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload. I'm not sure but I believe rogues get Hand X-Bows as a weapon for free.

You're all set. A very simply build into an effective mechanical build, that does what you want. "Archery" while still holding it's own in the cleric role. Plus give you that roguish flavor.

Hmmm this may not be a bad idea. I never took this prestige class seriously before now. May have to study this one.

[CyberWyld]

WoW Damionite, thanks dude! I'll have to take a look at that class for sure. That definately sounds like something I'd enjoy. I like the idea of keeping my spells and still being able to do what I want. The divine archer doesn't have a spell list made up. So my DM would have to make one, that is similiar to that of the arcane archer. But with this build I could just keep ALL the cleric spells I had access too and still pew, pew stuff to death. Thanks again, I'll give it some more attention and tweak it still. Thanks alot.



Hasta

[Tallis]

If you're going to have imbue arrows (or bolts) make some of yours blunt. That way you can imbue them with heals and heal your allies from a distance by shooting them. You should only have to hit their touch AC.

[Damionte]

WoW Damionite, thanks dude! I'll have to take a look at that class for sure. That definately sounds like something I'd enjoy. I like the idea of keeping my spells and still being able to do what I want. The divine archer doesn't have a spell list made up. So my DM would have to make one, that is similiar to that of the arcane archer. But with this build I could just keep ALL the cleric spells I had access too and still pew, pew stuff to death. Thanks again, I'll give it some more attention and tweak it still. Thanks alot.



Hasta

I Live To Serve !

[JackMage666]

For one, you have to remember this isn't Neverwinter Nights. There is a HUGE difference between the two systems, so you kinda have to start thinking differently.
Second, the idea isn't really solid, for a number of reasons -
1. Bard doesn't grant you first level spells at 1st level. At 1st level, a bard only gets 0-level spells.
2. Arcane Archer is Elf or Half-Elf only. The idea of a crossbow weilding Elf or Half-Elf is strange, at best, due to the superiority of bows.
3. Arcane Archer enhances Arrows, not bolts.
4. Lack of repeating hand crossbows (for a good reason). These items are kinda really cheesy. Considering you can dual-weild them, that's double the shots of a character if you use two-weapon fighting. If a rogue got a hold of this, they get double the sneak attacks and can stay safely 30 ft away while doing so. Also, the automatic system in this would be so precise and tiny, it could not properly be created, I think. I mean, a Hand Crossbow itself is an exotic weapon, so what would a repeating hand crossbow be? A Super-mega exotic weapon?

Basically, you'd need to change a whole lot of things to make this character concept possible, some of it harmless, some of it really cheesy (the repeating hand crossbows). I think you should re-think the concept a bit. Remember, Arcane Archer may sound cool, but a Battle Sorcerer with a Longbow seems a better Arcane Archer than someone who actually takes the Arcane Archer prestige class.

[Aquillion]

That's actually a very smart game engine. Even though the spells may be from the Sorc/Wiz spell list, they're technically Divine spells because they're being cast as Cleric spells.

Arcane/Divine classification of spells is based on the class used to cast it not on some inherent property of the spell itself.

But the Spell domain would work, since Anyspell, which it grants, explictly allows you to prepare arcane spells in domain slots (2nd or lower in 3rd level domain slots with anyspell, 5th or lower in 6th level slots with greater anyspell.)

Don't think it's in that game, though.

[Dhavaer]

Out of curiousity, has anyone ever seen a justification of why hand crossbows are exotic?

[Behold_the_Void]

You could try the Duskblade bow variant on this site. A friend of mine actually made a Divine Variant of the Duskblade, the Dawnblade.

A Dawnblade modified for the archery variant would be a much sounder version of what you're going for.

Well, maybe. I'd really have to see the class you're operating off of. But it might work.

As far as the repeating crossbows, I remember hearing of a way to have there be an extradimensional storage space on your repeating crossbow so that you can fire up to 100 bolts or something before reloading. Can't remember where it was though.

[Dervag]

All repeating crossbows need two hands to load, unfortunately. So you should probably talk to your gm about that, too.

Edit: actually, scratch that. The core rules don't contain repeating hand crossbows, so either they're in a supplement, in which case I have no idea what the rules for them are, or they're going to be completely home-brewed, in which case it doesn't matter.

Well, real-world revolvers need two hands to load in any sane amount of time, too.

For that matter, virtually all ranged weapons in all time periods require two hands to reload quickly, because you have to hold the weapon with one hand and insert the projectiles with the other.

Out of curiousity, has anyone ever seen a justification of why hand crossbows are exotic?

Off the top of my head I'd say it's because they're hard to aim without practice. Crossbows are quite heavy; there's a lot of metal and wood in them. Even miniaturizing a crossbow will make a fairly heavy weapon, which makes firing it in one hand difficult.

Moreover, the hand crossbow, like the repeating crossbow, must use mechanisms different from the ones found in 'normal' crossbows, and more difficult to become comfortable with.

At least, I think those are the rationales.

[Borogove]

All repeating crossbows need two hands to load, unfortunately. So you should probably talk to your gm about that, too.

Well, real-world revolvers need two hands to load in any sane amount of time, too.

For that matter, virtually all ranged weapons in all time periods require two hands to reload quickly, because you have to hold the weapon with one hand and insert the projectiles with the other.

Specifically, they need two hands to reload between each shot, not just when they run out of bolts. So, more like a bolt action rifle than a revolver.

[CyberWyld]

For one, you have to remember this isn't Neverwinter Nights. There is a HUGE difference between the two systems, so you kinda have to start thinking differently.

Thanks for the reply Jack, I realize this is not NWN and I have no trouble seperating the 2 systems. I simply mentioned the game to express where the idea for the character came from. Some things that work on paper don't translate well into game medium so it requires some tweaking. My motivation for the character was an old western gun slinger, as I've said before. But I've always loved the idea of the "Divine Archer" as well. I thought it would be really nice to combine the two.

I realize it doesn't make a ton of sense to make an Elf with a set of repeater x-bows. But how many of the elven longbow archers have you played with do you recall? I bet you'd remember the one that used dual repeater x-bows. :) Like I said, I'm more about a "cool" character then one that "makes sense" in the traditional sense of the word. RP can make ANYTHING make sense. At least that's the case in my experiences playing this game.

As far as the repeating crossbows, I remember hearing of a way to have there be an extradimensional storage space on your repeating crossbow so that you can fire up to 100 bolts or something before reloading. Can't remember where it was though.

Behold thank you for bringing this up. I was told from someone else about this option for the repeater, but no one can seem to remember where it's at. In which book I mean? Thanks in advance for any assistance in this.



Hasta

[Matthew]

Off the top of my head I'd say it's because they're hard to aim without practice. Crossbows are quite heavy; there's a lot of metal and wood in them. Even miniaturizing a crossbow will make a fairly heavy weapon, which makes firing it in one hand difficult.

Moreover, the hand crossbow, like the repeating crossbow, must use mechanisms different from the ones found in 'normal' crossbows, and more difficult to become comfortable with.

At least, I think those are the rationales.

I would suggest that it's one of these cases where it is 'more rarely encountered', rather than difficult to master.

[PinkysBrain]

I pride myself on making "cool characters" over ones that are amazingly powerful or hell...even useful. :P

The problem with your concept is that imbue arrow is the only worthwhile ability of the divine archer, that reducing the range of your attacks by using a hand crossbow reduces it's usefulness and that imbue arrow is also incompatible with TWF.

TWFing sucks unless you have bonus damage, divine archer sucks ... pick your poison, combining too many things which suck won't magically transform into coolness no matter how you roleplay it. You need a modicum of competence to pull of playing him as cool instead of just looking like a buffoon who can not realize his own incompetence.

The divine archer is simply an arcane archer knock off with divine prerequisites. As such it's a 2 level prestige class. If you have your heart set on it try cleric 8/divine archer 2/cleric X and use a composite longbow.

If you have your heart set on dual crossbows just forget about the divine archer. Instead try rogue 1/cleric 4/shadowbane stalker X (from complete adventurer). Not great, but playable.

PS. Quick-Loading from the Arms and Equipment Guide allows you to get free action reloading from an extradimensional space.

[CyberWyld]

You need a modicum of competence to pull of playing him as cool instead of just looking like a buffoon who can not realize his own incompetence.

Incompetence was probably the best choice of words there. I appreciate that. Thanks for your input in the matter. I'm looking at the Shadowbane Stalker as we speak. It doesn't really fit the RP background for the character, but it is a very cool class. When I make a character, I build who they are before I look at lvl's or feats or classes. Maybe that's "incompetent" but in my experience it's always made for a session that's alot more fun. And characters that people remember and are a little more believable. Initially the character was planned as a 4cleric/1fighter/divine archer/cleric build with the logbow as you stated. But after talking to my DM we decided that it would be really easy to just make a Divine Core Class modeled after the Arcane Archer core class that secular games had done. Which I would post, but I have no affliation with them, and I'm not sure they'd appreciate it. www.seculargames.com will direct you though I think. But as you're quite knowledgable I'm sure you can easily figure out the jist of the lvl breakdown.

As someone said earlier alot of this will have to be homebrewed I'm sure. But it's not going to overpower the character and he's still going to be a tool that's able to be utalized in combat. So we'll figure it out. I do appreciate the response and thanks for directing me to

PS. Quick-Loading from the Arms and Equipment Guide allows you to get free action reloading from an extradimensional space.

I will take a look at that and get it straight. Thanks again.



hasta

[PinkysBrain]

Actually I can't guess ... the problem is that the arcane archer is a supremely poorly developed PrC, so it's hard to guess what a core class based on it would look like.

Ideally it would be an adaption of the Duskblade from the PHB2 with some of the better archery spells from complete adventurer (and/or spell compendium).

Regardless though, the basic contradiction between having single shots which can do a lot of damage (imbue arrow) and dual wielding in a way which does nearly no damage (because of lack of bonus damage) remains. It simply doesn't make much sense to dual wield crossbows if you are wasting your time doing so, it doesn't matter how much you spin it ...

[CyberWyld]

You make some very good points pinky. I'm going to send you a PM so you can go over some stuff a bit and tell me what you think. Thanks again in advance for your input here, it's helped.



Hasta

[CASTLEMIKE]

Hello there, I'm new to the forums and glad that I was directed here. This seems to be a nice collection of fellow geeks. :)
I pride myself on making "cool characters" over ones that are amazingly powerful or hell...even useful. :P My current idea for a character is that of a Divine archer. (Same thing as an Arcane Archer but uses Divine spells) Initially I had decided I was going to use a longbow...but here recently I've been looking at dual wielding pistol style repeater crossbows.

The inspiration for this would be an old west gunfighter. I've spoken with my DM about it and he's even suggested tweaking the crossbows a bit so that the support front side of the crossbow collapses and fights into a hip holster.

Combine with the divine archer abilities I think this character would not only be "cool" but very useful in combat. Any suggestions on the build...or feats I should take? I've got a rough idea, but I'm curious as to what other D&D folks think. I'm sure most of you are far more noligable then myself. Thanks for your help in advance.



hasta

Carrying a weapon that you have to put together everytime you need to use it just seems like a really bad idea to me. Try wearing a hand crossbow much less a regular crossbow at your side with the bow already strung with a quarrel loaded and just walking around without any other encumberance.

Try putting a colapsible crossbow together and loading and drawing it for combat it still takes time.

The Archers don't normally restring their bows before each combat it is already strung and usually in hand or a quiver of ehlohnna which also might work for your concept.

It's an interesting concept. Something like a magical or psionic crossbow that launches a bolt (FRCS cantrip that launches a crossbow bolt or arrow to med range) with an equivalent create bolt like the psionic Bolt from EPH creates short lived arrows and quarrels.

Your side weapon wouldn't need a bow, could be hand cbow sized or pistol sized and could be easily worn like a pistol and pulling the trigger would create and launch a bolt without needing to be loaded. It could be your unique Bolt Weapon.

Effectively this would be a + 1 or a 1&1/2 magic item which would proably need at least a +1 enchantment so lets say it's a +2 weapon. Double enchantment to make it a Dual Weapon.

It is probably also an exotic weapon you need a exotic weapon proficiency for unless it is treated as a rod.

One option could be something like Zen crossbowery (Is that a word?) with the Ancestral Relic Feat to make and upgrade the weapon as you level instead of requiring an exotic weapon feat.

[CyberWyld]

Carrying a weapon that you have to put together everytime you need to use it just seems like a really bad idea to me. Try wearing a hand crossbow much less a regular crossbow at your side with a bow or putting it together and drawing for combat. The Archers don't normally restring their bows before each combat it is already strung and usually in hand.

Maybe with something like a magical or psionic crossbow with launch bolt a FRCS cantrip that launches a crossbow bolt to med range with an equivalent create bolt like the psionic Bolt from EPH.

Your weapon wouldn't need a bow and could be easily worn like a pistol and pulling a trigger would create and launch a bolt.

Effectively this would be a + 1 or a 1&1/2 magic item which would proably need at least a +1 enchantment so say it's a +2 weapon.

trapping a couple of crossbows to your side

DM and I spoke again today about the crossbows. The backstory of the character in brief was that he lost his brothers in a battle that I won't go into great detail about. They were both younger then he was and twins at that. Through some work at the temple of Kossuth (diety he follows) the clerics were able to fuse each of the twins souls with one of the crossbows. They were unable to ressurect them, but through the combined efforts at the temple the joining of the young elves and the weapons was possible. We've not worked out every detail of it, but they will both be intelligent weapons. I know off the cuff that sounds overly powerful, but we've decided to keep them on par with the weapons in the rest of the party. They will lvl with my character and the only advantage I really gain is the fact that I don't have to replace them for a "better" weapon found in a treasure chest or whatever. The downside of this of course is that they are different alignments from eachother and my character. So I will have to make ego checks against them for certain things. If one or the other ever gets destroyed they loose all magical abilites and become a regular crossbow. Same goes for if they were ever to be seperated from my character or each other. They would loose all magical abilities and properties until all 3 were reunited.


Thoughts?



Hasta

[CASTLEMIKE]

That sounded good. I prefer things that model or mimic in game mechanics. A Variant Ancestral Relic (BoED general feat (Normally a Master work item which belonged to a member of your family (Souls are good enough for me or maybe the remants of their staves or swords or maces or rods of office or their Spiked Chains the favored weapon of Kossuth) you pay to improve the items in a temple in your case a temple of Kossuth up to 1,000 GP a day (It increases as you level up. At Level 3 1,350 GP, at Level 8 13,500 GP at level 12 44,000 GP )) or Legacy weapon can do the things I mentioned in my earlier post and can be improved as you level up.

Since they are already DM approved magical weapons perhaps divine legacy weapons of a sort with ties to the church of Kossuth that implies a Flame theme.

I would make them Special +0 Twinned Variant "Ancestral Relic" or Legacy Magical Fire rods/sticks/crossbows with the Flaming Feat (+1) which create and launch Magical Fire Composite Long Bow Arrows (Better range and damage) to mid range as per the FRCS cantrip which are equivalent to Daggers for the purposes of TWF.

If the campaign is really low level right now you just get Fire Splash (1D3) a +1/2 mechanic or a freebie since it is a Kossuth Weapon only you can use.

As an Ancestral Relic weapon only your PC can use it and only you can improve it and they can be improved as you level up without having any other crafting feat.

It could be a Double Twin Souled Single Weapon that would do the similar things 1 or 2 attacks against the same target but targeting another target is a different attack but you wouldn't get hung up on the TWF rules, feats and tactics.

[CyberWyld]

I'll talk to him about those also Mike. Never thought of Divine Legacy Weps.



Hasta

[CASTLEMIKE]

There are so many source books in game now almost anything you want to do has some kind of comparable mechanic.

There is always Smoke Powder Pistols since you are in FRCS or at least Kossuth is knowledgeable of them if on other worlds.

Haasta