is it really overpowered? (closed)

[Wraithy]

the DM has decided to keep the school banned anyway, and I genuinly don't want to have my character defiled by ogres over the sake of a single spell.
thread closed

[Arbitrarity]

It's alter self, Polymorph, Polymorph any Object, and shapechange that are problems. Mostly because of war trolls and the like. Baleful polymorph is just like feeblemind, confusion, glitterdust, fear, etc. Save or lose. Actually, less AOE than most of those, but it's a literal lose, not a "suck so badly you WILL lose"

[Anxe]

Banned them? Why? Alter Self is pretty hard to abuse as you still have your own stats. Polymorph you have to have seen the monster you plan to polymorph into, not just know about it. Polymorph Any Object and Shapechange are 8th and 9th level spells. They're supposed to be powerful and useful!

[Arbitrarity]

Yeah, alter self can only get you +6 natural armour, a 60 ft fly speed, etc.

Nothing broken, for a 10mins/level 2'nd level spell.

[Yechezkiel]

Banned them? Why? Alter Self is pretty hard to abuse as you still have your own stats. Polymorph you have to have seen the monster you plan to polymorph into, not just know about it. Polymorph Any Object and Shapechange are 8th and 9th level spells. They're supposed to be powerful and useful!

They are too useful. Search the forums and you'll find enough proof to drown in.

[Kurald Galain]

Although a simple fix for Alter Self would be to let the caster pick two or three alternate shapes (or 1 per 4 levels maybe) that he's limited to, all of which must be creatures common to the game world as approved by the DM.

[Wraithy]

so do people think baleful polymorph is over powered or not?

[Fixer]

No. Your GM is simply 'throwing out the baby with the bath water' as it were.

[Inyssius Tor]

More like "throwing out the shiny rock with the less shiny rocks," I think.

[Douglas]

Pretty much anything that lets you look through the entire Monster Manual plus supplements and say "I want to be that" is overpowered. It's practically impossible to come up with a generic set of restrictions to such a spell that covers every abusable option when there are that many options to choose from, especially when every new supplement adds more options with little or no consideration to the possibility of PC's polymorphing into them. So, Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, and Shapechange are overpowered.

All the new polymorph subschool spells let you change into a specific short list of forms, sometimes even just one, instead of looking through the entire MM for something that fits the restrictions. As such each spell can be balanced on the merits of the specific forms available. In general, these spells are probably balanced.

Baleful Polymorph is just another save-or-lose. There's nothing special about it. If your DM considers Baleful Polymorph overpowered, he should treat all save-or-lose and save-or-die spells the same way.

[PlatinumJester]

Message from our Dm (who has gone to dinner and can't comment): The entire polymorph sub school is banned.

[Kurald Galain]

Out of curiosity, what WAS the WOTC attempt at fixing this, anyway? I know it failed, but what was it?

[PinkysBrain]

Although a simple fix for Alter Self would be to let the caster pick two or three alternate shapes (or 1 per 4 levels maybe) that he's limited to, all of which must be creatures common to the game world as approved by the DM.

So now I have to be on my toes each time I put a monster in just so I don't break the spell? That's entirely the wrong way around IMO. I'll keep the option to include any monsters I like and ditch the spell (or at least as written).

[Counterspin]

I agree with Douglas. It's just a save or die. Unless the lack of the spell is plot important, there's no good reason to ban it.

[PlatinumJester]

WOTC? ten letter limit

[Hyfigh]

Banned them? Why? Alter Self is pretty hard to abuse as you still have your own stats. Polymorph you have to have seen the monster you plan to polymorph into, not just know about it. Polymorph Any Object and Shapechange are 8th and 9th level spells. They're supposed to be powerful and useful!

Emphasis mine. What? The spells description doesn't say anything to that effect at all. Was it a change implemented with the sub-school?

[ZeroNumerous]

Baleful Polymorph:
Primary Caster: "I use Baleful Polymorph on the (Sorcerer, Cleric, or Wizard). I turn him into a Pixie."
Secondary Caster: "I fail my save."
24 Hours Later..
Secondary Caster: "I fail my save again."
*Party fills in the new pixie about what happened. Player makes a new character of the equivalent ECL.*

Thats about the only way to really use Baleful Polymorph effectively.

Personally, I get rid of everything above Alter Self, then make Alter Self a fourth level spell.

[CrazedGoblin]

WOTC? ten letter limit

Wizards of the Coast

[Kurald Galain]

So now I have to be on my toes each time I put a monster in just so I don't break the spell? That's entirely the wrong way around IMO. I'll keep the option to include any monsters I like and ditch the spell (or at least as written).

I said common. Most humanoid monsters I put in anywhere aren't even remotely common (non-humanoids aren't available via alter self). In my campaign this would mean any of the major races, meaning he could turn into such things as an elf (most subraces don't exist here), gnome or lizardman. I think I can handle that.

[Ulzgoroth]

A pixie isn't an animal. Baleful polymorph turns the target into an animal.

...so no, you can't even abuse it that way. Unless you're permitted to play a sub-3 int score creature, and for some reason want to.

[goat]

"What's that Lassie? The evil Lich has taken over the king's summer palace and Norris the bard has fallen down a well?"

"Woof!"

[RedScholarGypsy]

it's not so much he banned the whole sub-school as he provided no in game explanation. I've played games where whole schools were banned, but it was logically and well-written into the lore of the campaign, so our arcanes' rolled with it. It made things more interesting and forced them to be creative, which is what I like about restrictions; this one just seems to be a simple way to avoid some hassle with polymorph, which is fine to an extend. This is a little extreme, but that's not my problem: with no in-game explanation I cry foul.

[Ulzgoroth]

Er, do we have lore IRL about how there aren't any Ilithids? You don't need an in-game explanation for something not existing if it simply never existed.

No one has ever been able to cast Polymorph, no one ever will, no one wrote about it because all it is is a few arcane experiments that didn't pay off.

[ByeLindgren]

Yeah, I was about to say, maybe he banned Baleful because it would be weird to have just that kind of Polymorph. Makes more sense if everything's out. I'm able to suspend my disbelief for a just-Baleful campaign, though. It's much harder to believe that Polymorph-allowed wizards haven't already killed you and everything else.

[RedScholarGypsy]

When you can change the fabric of reality in how many different ways? Plus, he just banned this subschool: not shapechanging altogether. Why can a Druid shapeshift and not a Wizard? Or some monsters? I agree that with a lot of things you can get away without an explanation when making a setting, but such arbitrariness puts me off.

Also, please realize I never said he was WRONG to do so. He's DM, and as long as it doesn't really hurt the fun, it doesn't matter. I just said I didn't like it. My opinion.

[Jack_Simth]

Although a simple fix for Alter Self would be to let the caster pick two or three alternate shapes (or 1 per 4 levels maybe) that he's limited to, all of which must be creatures common to the game world as approved by the DM.

There are a handful of basic ways to fix the polymorph line of spells (Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, and Shapechange) fairly successfully:

1) It's a variation on a Summon spell - you replace the target with a version of the creature that shares the target's alignment and goals; the creature minus the stuff the particular version of the spell wouldn't give, not you+. Thus, if you turn your buffed-to-the-gills Fighter buddy into a Troll, he's a troll for the duration, minus a few things (but not plus the corresponding stuff from his original self). Gear's gone, any buffs that were on him are gone, he can't use that level of barbarian to Rage at the moment, can't use his Fighter Bonus Feats, and so on. He's Str 23, Dex 14, Con 23, Int 6, Wis 9, Cha 6, 6d8+36 (63) hp, 2 claws +9 melee (1d6+6) and bite +4 melee (1d6+3), and so on - but doesn't have Regeneration, Darkvision (and if he had Darkvision from having been a dwarf, he loses it!), and so on, as you only used Polymorph, which doesn't grant special qualities, just Ex special attacks. When the "summon" runs out of HP, the Fighter reverts with that amount of damage (which might kill him, potentially). Likewise, if the Wizard turns into a Troglodyte for the +6 natural armor, the Wizard is Str 10, Dex 9, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 10 for the duration (and couldn't cast spells, even putting a Headband of Intellect on after the change - as the MM Troglodyte can't cast spells) - and that +4 Armor bonus from the Mage Armor cast earlier? Gone.

2) Most of it is effectively illusion - the spell gives a "buff" from a list appropriate to the "new form" based on caster level (and limited based on the spell level), and the caster makes a Disguise check to make the target seem to be a member of that species - so the Wizard-3 using Alter Self to be a Troglodyte for the next half hour would get to pick between a claw attack, a bite attack, and +1 Natural Armor (such bonuses being capped by caster level). The Wizard using Alter Self to become a Merfolk would have to choose between Swim-30 (maximum speed being chained to caster level), and... well, okay - Merfolk don't have much in the way of special abilities.

3) Specific forms only. Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, and Shapechange are replaced with individually researched spells, each of which turns the target into a highly specific form with a specific set of abilities and potentially different spell levels - so Polymorph(Dog) would have a different level from Polymorph(Riding Dog) and Polymorph(Hydra) -

4) Some variant on one or more of the above.

5) The line is removed from the game entire.

6) Stuff I haven't really thought of.

Most, though, will agree that when the Wizard can turn the Rogue into a N headed Hydra at Nth level (where N is between 5 and 12), and the Rogue can go to town on his turn with N sneak attacks, each equipped with floor((n+1)/2) Sneak Attack dice due to the Fighter's Flanking, that something is a little more powerful than it ought to be. Especially if the Rogue is also getting full iterative attacks in by way of Improved Unarmed Strike. And that's a simple, core-only use of the spell.

[Gavin Sage]

it's not so much he banned the whole sub-school as he provided no in game explanation.

Are you using an established campaign setting? Since if not then there's no need for it an explanation, the magic doesn't exist. Bang over and done with. The is no in game explanation because there is nothing to explain. Magic simply doesn't work like that.

[Ulzgoroth]

Well, wizards also can't heal, or command plants. At least, not using spells I'm aware of. There are lots of things wizards can do, but there are a fair number their magic just doesn't seem to cover.

I think it would most like be clunkier if there were an attempted explanation. It has to be well written (so the players don't look at it 5 minutes and come up with a logical refutation) and somehow be known in-game...it's both easier and cleaner to just remove the spells from the set of discovered magic. This also leaves open the possibility of introducing some sort of balanced polymorph-type magic at a later date (if you can come up with a balanced polymorph spell).

[Inyssius Tor]

"Creatures' shapes are intrinsically tied to their souls, and changing either is extraordinarily difficult. It takes a powerful mage to even try, and the results are always monstrosities: permanently twisted, half-insane creatures like owlbears, minotaurs, and chimeras. Druids approach the transformation in a different way; using years of training and a heartfelt connection with nature, they can temporarily reshape their very souls."

Eh?

[Ulzgoroth]

Sample 5 minute (or second, actually) response:

What about Dragons and such with alternate form?

Ooh, another one:

What about reincarnation?

EDIT: By which I'm not trying to say that that's a bad explanation. But if your players have any desire to follow the threads, you need to think out all the implications of your explanation to a lot of depth. Or be ready to play dodge-logic at a later point when you've actually unwittingly contradicted your metaphysics, and a PC notices.