Traps: A Question of Experience (mostly)

[Serpentine]

There's a couple of trap-laden dungeons I'm working on, but before I use them I need to find out a couple of things about using traps. Specifically:
1. Does the experience from overcoming a trap go entirely to the rogue (or whoever deals with it) or is it divided up among the entire party?
and
2. In terms of granting experience, what does overcoming a trap involve? Does it have to be deliberately broken, stopped or bypassed, or can you just survive its effects?

For 1 I'm leaning towards dividing it up equally, as if the rogue fails to notice it the entire party is likely to suffer the effects. For 2, I'm thinking it might have to be handled on a trap-by-trap basis - I don't know that anyone learns anything from a wall scythe being blocked by their armour, but they probably deserve something if they set off a pit-trap but manage to grab onto the edge.

Anyways, what do you all think?

By the way, any ideas for traps would obviously be appreciated, specifically for (spoilered for Goff)

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a labyrinth built by kobolds for their minotaur master and an ancient temple of a nasty trickster-god.

[Keld Denar]

I agree that xp should be split 100% among the party. Otherwise some characters can feel slighted because they don't have certain class skills or abilities.

Traps are overcome on a case by case basis. Some examples would be jamming a trigger mechanism, disrupting a magical sigil in the correct spot, pinning a deadfall in place to support extra weight.

There are rules on overcoming traps too. If you beat the check DC by a certain number (10) you learn how to bypass a trap without disabling it. This could be useful if you want to use the trap against someone. Since you know where it is, and what triggers it, you might be able to bait someone into the trap to trap them. This usually doesn't work on the builder of the trap, but can get random wandering monsters or mindless creatures.

EDIT: If you are looking for specific traps, the net book of traps (google it)has some good ideas. Some of the material is still set for AD&D 2nd ed, but its easily converted using fair judgement and the 3.5 DMG. The DMG also has rules for setting the ECL of the traps, which is important for figuring out the xp defeating a trap rewards.

Also note, no xp should be given for triggering a trap and surviving. Unless the trap was triggered intentionally (for example, by shooting the trigger with a bow) because the difficulty was higher than the roguetype character was comfortable attempting. (you can appraise the aprox difficulty of a trap with only a DC 10 disable check)

[Spiryt]

If the check succeeds, you disable the device. If it fails by 4 or less, you have failed but can try again. If you fail by 5 or more, something goes wrong. If the device is a trap, you spring it. If you’re attempting some sort of sabotage, you think the device is disabled, but it still works normally.

A rogue who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more can study the trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (along with her companions) without disarming it.

From SRD of course.

[FireSpark]

If you're wanting to reward your rogue for being a good rogue, then I would say to give him a little bonus XP. Not a lot, but just enough to make a difference. Maybe a 5 to 10% bonus to his share of the xp from overcoming the trap. So successfully bypassing a CR 1 trap would get each other player 75 xp, while the rogue got 78 to 82 xp. Obviously not a major increase, but enough for a 'pat on the back'.

However, in all fairness, I would suggest that you do this for your other players as well. If fighter wades into a fight and drops every enemy but one, he should get a slight bonus for being such a good fighter. So on and so forth.

[I'm da Rogue!]

When a rogue uses disable devise, and the roll is successful, I have different results for different kinds of traps.
For example, for a pit trap or a pendulum trap (this reminded me "The Pit And The Pendulum" by E. A. Poe) if the rogue succeeds, the pit or pendulum are blocked (for once, or for as many times as u want).
Some types of traps can be broken as well. A nice Dis.Device roll helps the rogue understand in what ways a trap works,study it, and thus suggest many ways of disarmong it (breaking,blocking,knowing what to do so as not to get trapped etc)
I give the xp only to the rogue, since if s/he fails, s/he is the one to be blamed by the party.
The rogue is also in danger. The dis,device roll is secret, so the rogue doesn't know the result before testing the trap. That's why Reflex (and other saving throws) were invented

[I'm da Rogue!]

Wait a minute, I don't think I've actually given xp for disarming a trap...
Except a couple of times when the trap was really nasty and difficult..

[Serpentine]

From SRD of course.

I am aware of this. I had a good look in the DMG and feel pretty comfortable with Disable Device (though I didn't know about appraising the difficulty of it... is that official?), but there's nothing in there about allocating experience, which is what I'm specifically asking about.

I'm steering away from giving the rogue all the experience because, well, they still get a share in a confrontation with a golem to which they do absolutely no damage. I suppose they do offer an additional target, though...

[JEntropy]

If you want a better response on trap ideas, you'll need to give us a party level so we know what the encounter level the traps should be.

This being said, some of my favorite traps came out of a pre-constructed module I ran, and here is a basic rundown on a few of them:

- A crude rope snare lies within clear view of the PC's, with the words "Put Fut Heer" written on the ground inside the loop. The PC's will avoid the obvious trap, but if they aren't careful, will fall into the pit trap directly beside it.

- In the midst of dealing with said trap, several kobolds come out and hurl spears or javelins at the party. If the party chases after them, they are caught and entangled in nets lined with fishhooks (which the kobolds pass under because of their smaller size).

- Several of the traps involved riddles, which are an interesting variation and an opportunity for wordplay, to unlock doors or avoid traps entirely.

- One of the best traps, which actually forced the group to work together, was basically a recreation of minesweeper. The ground was laid out in a grid, and a being communicated with them telepathically to let them know how many squares around them were trapped. The traps employed were paralyzing traps, and rendered the ally useless for an hour - except as a trap-finder. My players actually used paralyzed comrades when they weren't sure. Still, though it did take them a while to figure it out, they did enjoy all sitting around the sheet of grid paper and working out a safe passage. If you run a similar trap, I definitely recommend you give them a grid to draw things out on.

Note: all of these traps were designed for ECL 1 characters, so they won't really be challenging for a higher level party, unless they're modified to be a little more menacing.

[Serpentine]

If you want a better response on trap ideas, you'll need to give us a party level so we know what the encounter level the traps should be.

Good point. Average 10, I believe (something like 1 9, 3 10 and 1 11).

[quote- A crude rope snare lies within clear view of the PC's, with the words "Put Fut Heer" written on the ground inside the loop. The PC's will avoid the obvious trap, but if they aren't careful, will fall into the pit trap directly beside it.[/QUOTE]
Awesome Something like this would be very good for the temple, I think. I've already had one idea like this for it...
(spoilered for Goff)

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The continent we're on is basically South America, so most of the writing is in complex pictograms. The rogue is a self-confessed "lever-puller and button-presser". So. I'm thinking of having, well, a lever sticking out of the wall. Over it will be a large pictogram of those boxy looking humanoid figures with his hand on a line (ie. pulling a lever), with either a bold line striking through it (ie. Do Not Pull This Lever) or some highly misleading illustration depicting what happens when it is pulled - say, what appears to be a shower of gold in fact being the roof collapsing. I have no idea at this stage what would happen...

[Spiryt]

I am aware of this.

Well, i just though it is good answer for your second question.

[Citizen Joe]

You need to be careful with defining overcoming a trap and giving experience for it. For example, lets say the group finds a pit, maybe by one person falling in and taking some damage. That person manages to get out and the party stretches some boards across the pit trap and proceed across. Does the whole party get XP for that? If they do, shouldn't they get it again when they cross back over? Now what's to stop them from crossing the pit all day long?

To that end, I'd likely give XP for surviving an activated trap or successfuly disarming it. So, you'd get xp for falling into the pit, but not for just crossing it. You'd get experience for permanently disabling it (maybe a warning sign or lid atop it).

The point is to be careful about giving a group an XP treadmill. I think some DM (and I'd suggest ALL) give out experience only at the end of the adventure (or some significant break point). So the party won't be hearing the XP counter wrack up as they pass said pit, thus less likely to keep ringing up the xp. Of course a similar comparison would be subduing a monster, capturing it, lock it in a cell and then repeated beat it unconscious to get experience that way. In all those cases, you should only get experience for defeating it the first time (or until it resets).

[Swooper]

I suppose I should spoiler this if one of your players reads this forum...

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For the 'temple of the trickster god' - shouldn't those traps be of the non-lethal kind? Traps that aim more to humiliate the party and scare them, rather than wall blades that cut them to bits and poisoned pit traps. Play with their minds. Shut down their light sources, via Gust of Wind or Dispell Magic traps. Collapsing ceilings/walls that stop just before they'd crush the party. Stuff like that.

[Serpentine]

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I did say he's a particularly nasty trickster god. But you make a good point, I'll definitely have to throw those sorts of things in. Actually, much of the point of the labyrinth is to mess with people's heads until they get to the minotaur who can then have his fun with them, so that sort of thing could be good for that, too.

Thanks for that, btw.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

1. Does the experience from overcoming a trap go entirely to the rogue (or whoever deals with it) or is it divided up among the entire party?

Divided evenly among the party.

2. What does overcoming a trap involve? Does it have to be deliberately broken, stopped or bypassed, or can you just survive its effects?

It has to be encountered and either disarmed, avoided or survived. (DMG page 39)

[Ashtar]

Game masters are not computers...

The spirit of the rule is Reward Challenge... A monster defeated, kept in storage, with your mates ready to pull you out, etc... is not challenging.

Going over a plank over a pit is not a challenge.

Going over a plank covered in grease, running from a rolling rock, fumbling with a huge number of keys trying to remember which one opens the locked door at the end of the corridor, is a challenge.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Going over a plank over a pit is not a challenge.

It is not even a trap.

Encountering a camouflaged pit trap and bypassing it by balancing over it using a plank is certainly a way to overcome a challenge.

Going over a plank covered in grease, running from a rolling rock, fumbling with a huge number of keys trying to remember which one opens the locked door at the end of the corridor, is a challenge.

Less of a challenge if the rock fails the balance check though.

[JEntropy]

It is not even a trap.
Less of a challenge if the rock fails the balance check though.

Depends. If a rock fails a balance check, does it stop? If its on an incline, does the rock lose control of its balance and simply bounce around at the whims of the lesser god of gravity? Does it all rewind when the DM decides the rock should have made a tumble check in the first place?

[Kurald Galain]

WRT the experience, in my opinion "regular" experience should be split among the party, such as when the rogue goes "I detect traps [roll] I remove traps [roll]". However, if any character, rogue or not, has a clever idea (preferably one that works ) to counteract or bypass some trap, that character should get bonus exp.

[Ethdred]

Also note, no xp should be given for triggering a trap and surviving.

Yes it should be - it's an encounter that has risk and (potentially) reduced party 'resources'. And since you're a sensible DM you aren't likely to give them repeat XP for throwing themselves into the pit over and over again.

[Keld Denar]

Yes it should be - it's an encounter that has risk and (potentially) reduced party 'resources'. And since you're a sensible DM you aren't likely to give them repeat XP for throwing themselves into the pit over and over again.

WEEEEEEE!!!!!
SPLAT!!!
OWWWW!!!!
Ok guys, we only need to throw ourselves into this pit 40 more times to level up! Hurray for grinding!

[Runolfr]

2. What does overcoming a trap involve? Does it have to be deliberately broken, stopped or bypassed, or can you just survive its effects?

As far as I'm concerned, anything that involves getting to what the trap protected without suffering the full effects of the trap itself qualifies as overcoming it.

For instance, if there's a trap on a door that shoots darts at the space in front of it when you try to open it, tying a rope to the handle so you can open it from a distance would overcome the trap, even if no one in the party actually detects or disables the trap.

If the trap goes off and gets to launch its attack against someone, you didn't overcome it, even if the attack fails because of a missed attack roll, successful save, or the like.

If you deliberately set the trap off in such a way that the only person it affects is immune, I would accept that as overcoming the trap. For instance, if you know there's a firetrap on a container and you cast Resist Fire on someone before they open it so it doesn't hurt them, that would be successfully overcoming the trap.

Basically, intentional action by the party that avoids or mitigates the trap overcomes it; lucky accidents don't.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

WEEEEEEE!!!!!
SPLAT!!!
OWWWW!!!!
Ok guys, we only need to throw ourselves into this pit 40 more times to level up! Hurray for grinding!

A hole in the ground is not a trap.

Generally traps should not award xp more than once for encountering it.


I already cited the RAW above.

[Mike_Lemmer]

I would treat surviving a trap like surviving an encounter; they still get XP since they lived, but since they really didn't defeat the trap, they only get partial XP.

[Keld Denar]

A hole in the ground is not a trap.

Generally traps should not award xp more than once for encountering it.


I already cited the RAW above.

I was posting that in jest. I apologize to anyone who misunderstood it as anything but. I was trying to poke fun at the fact that in most MMORPGs, you typically do do something that mindless and repetative and seemingly idiotic over and over and over again, often counting down the number of runs/kills/widgets created until level.

/signed
WoW free for almost 2 years now

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I was posting that in jest. I apologize to anyone who misunderstood it as anything but. I was trying to poke fun at the fact that in most MMORPGs, you typically do do something that mindless and repetative and seemingly idiotic over and over and over again, often counting down the number of runs/kills/widgets created until level.

/signed

Your previous post made me doubt whether you were being sarcastic or making a joke.

WoW free for almost 2 years now

So you never tried the expansion?

I have heard good things about it... are you sure you don't want to try? I mean just one time... One won't hurt I am sure...

[Corolinth]

I am aware of this. I had a good look in the DMG and feel pretty comfortable with Disable Device (though I didn't know about appraising the difficulty of it... is that official?), but there's nothing in there about allocating experience, which is what I'm specifically asking about.

Traps have CRs, just like monsters.

[Thexare Blademoon]

- A crude rope snare lies within clear view of the PC's, with the words "Put Fut Heer" written on the ground inside the loop. The PC's will avoid the obvious trap, but if they aren't careful, will fall into the pit trap directly beside it.

Just for the fun of it, I tried this one in AIM.

[17:15] Jake: You enter the hallway.
[17:16] Jake: Straight ahead of you is a crude rope snare with the phrase "put fut hear" scrawled hastily inside it. There is enough room to walk around the rope on the left side, but not on the right. What do you do?
[17:17] Mark: ... ...
[17:17] Mark: I am strangely enticed by the rope snare...
[17:17] Mark: Curiosity gets the better of me, and I simply wonder if the damn thing works. I put my foot in it.
[17:18] Jake: ...
[17:18] Jake: *headdesk*
[17:18] Jake: it grabs you, jerks you upward, and slams your head into the ceiling.

[Serpentine]

Traps have CRs, just like monsters.

For monsters, you generally get experience for slaughtering them, or sometimes for getting past them. This is what "overcoming the encounter" usually means. My question is, what is the equivalent for traps?
I don't remember the "survived" bit in DMG p. 35, I'll have to go have another look.
I'll edit the original question to make it a bit clearer.

[JEntropy]

Just for the fun of it, I tried this one in AIM.

[17:15] Jake: You enter the hallway.
[17:16] Jake: Straight ahead of you is a crude rope snare with the phrase "put fut hear" scrawled hastily inside it. There is enough room to walk around the rope on the left side, but not on the right. What do you do?
[17:17] Mark: ... ...
[17:17] Mark: I am strangely enticed by the rope snare...
[17:17] Mark: Curiosity gets the better of me, and I simply wonder if the damn thing works. I put my foot in it.
[17:18] Jake: ...
[17:18] Jake: *headdesk*
[17:18] Jake: it grabs you, jerks you upward, and slams your head into the ceiling.

My PC's fell into the pit. Thats the funny thing about being a DM, sometimes the players come up with incredibly complex answers that work as perfect solutions to simple problems, the rest of the time they fall for the stupidest things.

[Golthur]

For monsters, you generally get experience for slaughtering them, or sometimes for getting past them. This is what "overcoming the encounter" usually means. My question is, what is the equivalent for traps?
I don't remember the "survived" bit in DMG p. 35, I'll have to go have another look.
I'll edit the original question to make it a bit clearer.

Personally, I'd say "overcoming" in this case means "getting past it and surviving" - whether it's through disarming it, running as fast as you can through it, cleverly avoiding the whole thing, or just setting it off but still surviving. Regardless of how you get past it, it's still a danger, and thus XP-worthy.