PHB & DMG only...

[Guinaur]

I was reading a few optimized build threads and I just wondered, what is the most powerfull build with just the core PHB and DMG?

[Morty]

I'm no expert, but I'd bet on wizard or druid. They don't even have to be heavily optimized in order to be very strong.

[Tengu]

Wizard 20. No matter what books are you using, Wizard 20 is always the most overpowered build, apart from a certain kobold.

[Keld Denar]

I'd say more that wiz10/loremaster10 would be stronger than a wiz20. Loremaster gets some neat stuff, more bonus feats than a straight wizard, and only loses familiar progression.

Straight cleric would be a close 2nd, or maybe straight druid now that natural spell is in the PHB (wasn't in 3.0)

[giblina]

Like anything, it depends on the campaign and what's meant by "most powerful", and what level you're starting at.

In terms of raw ability to inflict mass destruction, yes, a 20th level wizard will outdo everyone else.

But there's also social ability, and utility, and starting at level 1, and everything else. Being a low level wizard can kind of suck, especially if you're in a campaign that makes heavy use of skills.

I'd recommend figuring out what aspect of the game you find most fun (being sneaky, making the toughest tank you can, being sociable, helping your party, burninating kobolds, etc) and then go from there.

Most fun > most powerful any day of the week ;)

[Morty]

I'd say more that wiz10/loremaster10 would be stronger than a wiz20. Loremaster gets some neat stuff, more bonus feats than a straight wizard, and only loses familiar progression.

That's right, but I'd rather say Archmage instead of Loremaster.

[Attilargh]

Old Half-Elven Aristocrat 3 whose foes give him 10 rounds for a Diplomacy check.

[PirateMonk]

Infinite levels in everything, seeing as no level is specified...

[horseboy]

I was reading a few optimized build threads and I just wondered, what is the most powerfull build with just the core PHB and DMG?

Given just how precarious the balance is in 3.x with just a little thought and an actionary instead of a reactionary mindset you can break the system using any class. Just find something you like to play.

[Arbitrarity]

Wizard 7/Loremaster 6/Archmage 3/Loremaster 4 is my favorite.

Divination specialist, banned evocation, took the bonus feat, followed by the save boosters, followed by the extra 2nd level spell slot (from loremaster), took Arcane Reach, Mastery Of Shaping, and Spell Power.

Maxed out UMD because of Loremaster, and so can use a bunch of other things. High INT+Loremaster skill list = decent skill monkey. Since grey elf isn't an option, the human bonus feat is pretty tasty.

[Stephen_E]

Druid 1-10
Wizard + prestige class. probably Wiz 7/Loremaster 8/Archmage 5 for 11-20

If you want to try something that is consistently strong, but never the best, you could try Barb 1/Wiz 5/Eldritch Knight 9/Archmage 5.
The Barb 1 keeps you alive for the 1st couple of levels, the Eldritch Knight gives you slightly superior hp's and you still end up a 18th level Arcane caster.

Straight Cleric is also consistently strong without ever quite been the best.

Of course it should be noted that Wizards take more work to play than any other core class. They have more good spells to choose amongst. If you aren't upto the work level, but still want arcane power, take the sorceror. You won't be as uber, but you only have to make the hard choices when leveling.

"Infinite levels in everything, seeing as no level is specified..."
Above 20 is Epic.
Epic isn't really covered in PHB/DMG (5 pages doesn't count as covered IMHO).

Stephen

[Swooper]

If you want to try something that is consistently strong, but never the best, you could try Barb 1/Wiz 5/Eldritch Knight 9/Archmage 5.
The Barb 1 keeps you alive for the 1st couple of levels, the Eldritch Knight gives you slightly superior hp's and you still end up a 18th level Arcane caster.

This raises the question: How can the illiterate barbarian learn to be a wizard by 2nd level?

(To which the answers would promptly be: A) By taking a level in wizard (by RAW, you don't need to be literate to learn wizardry) B) By putting two of your 1st level skill points into literacy)

[Inyssius Tor]

Y'know, a wizard that can't read or write would be pretty interesting...

[Kurald Galain]

There are several flavors of wiz that don't need to be able to read, such as the anagakok. Makes for an interesting character, yes. He'd probably have something weird like knotted ropes for a spell"book".

[PlatinumJester]

Any class that has hold person, invisibility greater and fly as spells. Cast invisibilty greater and fly. Go find the baron of the land, use hold person and you basically have your own country.

[Keld Denar]

Most of the archmage tricks are kind of dumb (see arcane fire). The only ones that are worth giving up the spell slots are master of shaping, arcane reach, and spell power, and even spell power can be achieved other ways (although having as much as possible is also good). Spell-like ability would be sooooo worth it if you got the right spell. Like forcecage. Because of the costly component, you'd burn 15,000 xp and a 5th and 7th level slot, but from that point ever after, you'd get forcecage 2x per day as a spell-like. I could see that as worth it :) The counterspell one would only be good with reactive counterspell from one of the FR books. That would give you spell reflection as an immediate ability, but otherwise not worth it.

Just some rambling muses....

[adanedhel9]

Druid 1-10

Technically speaking, a Druid wouldn't be that great with the PHB and DMG only. But I doubt that's what the OP meant.

I suggest a diplomancer... take Leadership and get a cleric cohort as a bodyguard, and there's not much that can stand in your way.

[Korias]

Wizard 20, Wizard 11 Archmage 9.

If for Consistency, The Cleric, Fighter (If Equipped Correctly. Thats a big issue.), and Sorc.

The Bard can be VERY effective, but requires a bit of forethought. Positioning, and # of Allies is crucial.

[Starsinger]

This raises the question: How can the illiterate barbarian learn to be a wizard by 2nd level?

(To which the answers would promptly be: A) By taking a level in wizard (by RAW, you don't need to be literate to learn wizardry) B) By putting two of your 1st level skill points into literacy)

Don't you magically learn to read the moment you take a level in non-barbarian? Or was that a hangover from 3E that I've yet to forget.

[Keld Denar]

Wizard 20, Wizard 11 Archmage 9.

Archmage is only a 5 level pclass......

[Dhavaer]

Y'know, a wizard that can't read or write would be pretty interesting...

Dragon once had a class that was more or less exactly that.

[Drider]

Don't you magically learn to read the moment you take a level in non-barbarian? Or was that a hangover from 3E that I've yet to forget.

barbarian + frenzied berserker= can read, its still like that

[karmuno]

Y'know, a wizard that can't read or write would be pretty interesting...

Actually, a Wizard by RAW probably doesn't need to be literate. This is because a wizard's spellbook is not written in any common language, it is mainly runes and diagrams that mostly illustrate (at least that's how I interpret it). With this description, a wizard would not need to be able to read/write, say, common, but he'd only need to know how to interpret the different runes. This is not the same as "reading." If it was, the wizard wouldn't lose spells after he casts them because he would retain the information longer. Rather there is some magical property in the symbols that basically writes the spells in your mind for a limited duration, if you know how to make them do that. It is assumed that when somebody takes a level in wizard, they learn how to read these (probably from the same people from whom they received their first spellbook and/or spells).

But yeah, wizards pwn (although I prefer clerical/paladin types myself).

[Corolinth]

Strictly by the RAW, there's very little a wizard can do that a level 20 rogue can't, with sufficient money to purchase scrolls.

[Stephen_E]

Most of the archmage tricks are kind of dumb (see arcane fire). The only ones that are worth giving up the spell slots are master of shaping, arcane reach, and spell power, and even spell power can be achieved other ways (although having as much as possible is also good). Spell-like ability would be sooooo worth it if you got the right spell. Like forcecage. Because of the costly component, you'd burn 15,000 xp and a 5th and 7th level slot, but from that point ever after, you'd get forcecage 2x per day as a spell-like. I could see that as worth it :) The counterspell one would only be good with reactive counterspell from one of the FR books. That would give you spell reflection as an immediate ability, but otherwise not worth it.

Just some rambling muses....

You don't think Mastery of Elements is any good?
It's an Energy Substitution x5. Sure, I know that blasting is ussually a weaker option, but sometimes it's still necessary, and been able to convert all your energy spells to whatever energy they're vunerable to is awfully nice (it's unfortunate that changing the energy type doesn't change the save, like Psionics does).

Stephen

[Corolinth]

Now now, you should know that blasting is never necessary. Our enemies always fail all of their requisite saving throw, and we always succeed all of ours.

[Dausuul]

Spell-like ability would be sooooo worth it if you got the right spell. Like forcecage. Because of the costly component, you'd burn 15,000 xp and a 5th and 7th level slot, but from that point ever after, you'd get forcecage 2x per day as a spell-like. I could see that as worth it :)

Uh, as I read it, the SLA ability under archmage requires you to pay XP equal to 10 x the gold cost every time you use the SLA:

The archmage does not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so and a spell with a costly material component instead costs her 10 times that amount in XP. This ability costs one 5th-level spell slot.

Which is pretty much never worth doing.

[Superglucose]

If you have another one in your party, I like a 20 rogue who dual-wields short swords.

With the other rogue you get massive flanking. No good against creatures immune to sneak attack, but there's something special about 7 attacks, each doing 11d6 damage before you add the shock/flaming/frost... so a total off 98d6 damage. Plus you make it +5, and you have two slots left for enchantments. My DM made me take average damage