Is this a sane encounter for my party?

[Ing]

Yo, Im running a campaign and right now the party's infiltrating a Neogi nest. Got an fun idea for the main boss of this dungeon but I don't know if it's too powered

Truly Horrid Umber Hulk, wielding a Titans Maul, ridden by a level 6 Neogi Sorcerer who cases nigh solely "Hold Person"

The party is a 6 member level 9.

Too touch for them?

[Neon Knight]

Waaaaaayyyyy too much. The Umber Hulk alone is very challenging. With a powerful weapon and a rider, you'll slaughter your party.

[Ing]

Waaaaaayyyyy too much. The Umber Hulk alone is very challenging. With a powerful weapon and a rider, you'll slaughter your party.

The party is fairly powerful. two bards, cleric cohort, paladin, half ogre half dragon barbarian, and a rogue. and they are packing some decent magical heat.

[Ing]

So any ideas on how I can keep the basic premise but make it reasonable?

Perhaps if instead of a TH Umber Hulk I just use one advanced to huge size?

[Neon Knight]

Bards? Excellent faces, but not exactly combat dominating. Still, illusions and bardic music can be helpful boosts.

Cleric cohort? Probably heal bot and buffer and several levels lower than the rest of the party. Adds a bit, but I'm still not seeing this pretty powerful.

Paladin. Hm, okay solid frontliner there.

Half Ogre-Half Dragon? not only is that vaguely disturbing, but that probably means LA, and half dragon is a template usually considered not worth it LA wise. Half Ogre is solid, and he is a Barbarian. A good rage crit can do insane damage. His input is variable.

Rogue. Hm. Use Magic Item, sneak attack, I can see a bit of potential here.

If you want a more accurate estimate, you'll have to start posting builds and such so we can accurately gauge each party member's abilities. I am not, however, seeing stuff that will let them take on a CR14 baddie equipped with a fairly good weapon with a level 6 sorcerer slinging spells from its back.

[Fixer]

For a level 5 party, way too much.

For a level 10 party, probably too much.

For a level 15 party, a fairly simple encounter.

For a level 20 party, a speedbump.

So, for level 9s I'd say probably too much. If the players are very experienced, though, let it happen. At level 9 they have access to Raise Dead.

[Corolinth]

I was wondering what you were smoking, until I read this was the big bad nasty for your adventure.

Make it a regular umber hulk, and tone down the weapon. Then it'll be money. He'll still be brutally tough, but the climactic encounter is supposed to be tough.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The party is fairly powerful. two bards, cleric cohort, paladin, half ogre half dragon barbarian, and a rogue. and they are packing some decent magical heat.

Barbarian and rogue are screwed by the Hold Person... the others will shrug it off.

I fail to see how 'powerful' this group is. Bards are like a 5th wheel... handy secondary characters, but lousy primary, and having more than one in the group is pointless since their bonuses don't stack. And how in the hell can you say they are 'packing serious magical heat' when the ONLY arcane caster they have is a BARD? They don't even have a real Cleric either, it's just a Cohort.

They are going to get TPK'd hardcore if you send that after them.

[Corolinth]

I believe serious magical heat refers to their magical items, which we know nothing about.

[Superglucose]

Well, if your players are powergaming, it should be fine. I once took a level 15 paladin toe to toe with a pair of CL 20 titans, and one handily in like three turns. Of course, I was in a group and we kept helping each other powergame to the max, so we all had AC 50 by that point...

It might be overpowerd, but you do have six members in your party, so... I'd say it's a wash. Maybe make sure they have a good escape plan first. Sometimes its fun to lose a tough battle and escape.

[Ing]

The bards and Paladin buff the party insanely

Together the last major battle they gave the party +8 ac

[Corolinth]

I'm drawing a blank for what spells/abilities they use to accomplish that.

[Ing]

I'm probably exaggerating

Paladin has PROTECTION DEVOTION.

One bard used inspire while the other cast haste

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The bards and Paladin buff the party insanely

Together the last major battle they gave the party +8 ac

Keep in mind bard music bonuses don't stack since they're all morale bonuses.

Pally isn't able to buff the party's AC at all...

I fail to see how they can do this

[Corolinth]

Yeah, I'm leaning towards stacking issues myself.

[goat]

The hold person could be a killer, freedom of movement is a 4th level bard/cleric spell, so even if the cleric has the capability, they're not going to spamming it out willy-nilly.

[brian c]

For a level 5 party, way too much.

For a level 10 party, probably too much.

For a level 15 party, a fairly simple encounter.

For a level 20 party, a speedbump.

So, for level 9s I'd say probably too much. If the players are very experienced, though, let it happen. At level 9 they have access to Raise Dead.

It is a party of 6 members though, so maybe it'd be doable... but then again, two of those party members are Bards. And one is a Ogre/Dragon with a +5 LA and only 4 actual Barbarian levels, although with any knowledge of what he's doing he has at least 33 strength right now (+6 Half-Ogre, +8 Half-Dragon, 4th class level, start at 18). Man, that guy should take levels in War Hulk- he could max out at like 56 str without magic items.

[PinkysBrain]

The hold person is the least of the troubles. None of them have more than a 50% chance of saving against the Umber Hulk's confusion effect and they have no buffs which can protect against it, the bards can use break enchantment to remove it ... but odds are it would be back next round. They can't even use battlefield control against the thing ... he can just burrow around it.

His only weak save is his reflex save ... and since his hp are sky high that's hardly relevant.

Perhaps if they have advance warning of the encounter and it's nature and the cleric can buff them with the Blind Sight spell they stand a remote chance.

[Koji]

A standard umber hulk will just die too quickly. Try advancing him a few HD and giving him a slightly weaker weapon. He doesn't need to deal incredible damage if the characters are paralyzed anyway.

Remember that hulks can create pitfalls with their tunneling. Throwing traps into the mix might make the fight a lot tougher.

[Corolinth]

A standard umber hulk will just die too quickly.

No he won't. I had a standard umber hulk last four rounds against a party of six level 13 adventurers. If the wrong people fail those will saves against his confusion gaze, the umber hulk lives a lot longer.

The hold person is the least of the troubles. None of them have more than a 50% chance of saving against the Umber Hulk's confusion effect and they have no buffs which can protect against it, the bards can use break enchantment to remove it ... but odds are it would be back next round. They can't even use battlefield control against the thing ... he can just burrow around it.

This doesn't at all make it unfair for a Big Bad encounter. There are nonmagical ways to protect against a gaze attack. If the PCs don't use them (like mine didn't in the above example) that's their fault.

[Koji]

No he won't. I had a standard umber hulk last four rounds against a party of six level 13 adventurers. If the wrong people fail those will saves against his confusion gaze, the umber hulk lives a lot longer.

I guess this varies from party to party, but my group of six guys (average level 4) defeated a standard umber hulk in about four rounds.

One of them almost died in one hit, but he got healed fairly quickly and was back in the action in time to crit it and take it out.

[Corolinth]

I had the cleric, the paladin, and the ranger/fighter all fail their will saves against the DC15 confusion gaze in the first round. They had to have the confusion effect dispelled, and by that time they had run to the other side of the battlefield. They were invading a dragon's lair, and the spellcasters didn't want to waste spells on the very first encounter. Then on the way back into the fray, the ranger/fighter fails his will save again.

They made quick work of the thing once they finally got into the fray (hence why the spellcasters weren't going to waste spells). The problem was getting that first hit in.

[Thinker]

Well, if your players are powergaming, it should be fine. I once took a level 15 paladin toe to toe with a pair of CL 20 titans, and one handily in like three turns. Of course, I was in a group and we kept helping each other powergame to the max, so we all had AC 50 by that point...

It might be overpowerd, but you do have six members in your party, so... I'd say it's a wash. Maybe make sure they have a good escape plan first. Sometimes its fun to lose a tough battle and escape.

How do you help "each other powergame to the max"? Do you just point out errors in other people's builds? What party has 50 AC at level 15 on every character? I'd like to see the play-by-play with the Titan fight. The spell-like abilities are pretty good, especially against a level 15 foe.

[JellyPooga]

Barbarian and rogue are screwed by the Hold Person... the others will shrug it off.

Just a point of note...the Barbarian will be completely unaffected by Hold Person...he's a Dragon remember? If it was Hold Monster on the other hand...

[Superglucose]

How do you help "each other powergame to the max"? Do you just point out errors in other people's builds? What party has 50 AC at level 15 on every character? I'd like to see the play-by-play with the Titan fight. The spell-like abilities are pretty good, especially against a level 15 foe.

I charged the titan with my heavy lance, flew away out of range (240'), then turned around and did it again, then focused on the other one. See, my dragon had haste, so my DM let me take two move actions and a standard action... and the move speed of my dragon was 240'.

And secondly, yes. We spent hours trying to make our characters as tough as possible. All in all it wasn't very fun after the initial "Look at this character" and I will never powergame intentionally again.

Though my current character almost accidently is the best DPS in our party.

[goat]

Just a point of note...the Barbarian will be completely unaffected by Hold Person...he's a Dragon remember? If it was Hold Monster on the other hand...

But is he? Or is he a humanoid Dragon? Anyway the rogue certainly isn't and can fail his save, and the paladin could certainly fail his.

As almost all of the damage in this encounter will probably be coming from the barb/pali/rogue team, stopping two of them in their tracks will effectively render the team helpless. The cleric is probably an optimised cohort healer, and the bards are likely to be buffing specialists with low level wizard capabilities. I.e lots of grease and other low level battlefield control spells, but not much in the way of damage.

Once the other two are stopped, the Barbarian on his own could easily be crunched, and the rest followed up. It would all depend on a few rolls. If the early rolls from the BBEG are low, the party could find it easy with some average rolls. If the early party rolls are low, it could be all over in a few rounds.

I think it's a dangerous encounter, and could result in a TPK. But it's not a certainty, and a few luck re-rolls could make it easy.

[Ing]

Honestly, the battle is probalby going to be too hard now that I think about it.

Even removing the confusion and Titan Maul, the Barbarian has horrible will save due to his ECL. In the last battle against a regular Neogi grunt he almost killed the Paladin.

I forgot to mention that there is also a halfling Swordsage. His abilities are the closest thing the party has to an actual arcane spell caster.

So I'm thinking of using a regular Umber Hulk advanced to be about halfway between a TH Umber and a regular, lower the weapon to a nerfed version of the Titan maul and use just an advanced Neogi boss (probably make him frail and elderly since his back story is that he rules the other Neogi through his Umber's strength) as his master.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

But is he? Or is he a humanoid Dragon? Anyway the rogue certainly isn't and can fail his save, and the paladin could certainly fail his.

As a half-dragon, he has the Dragon subtype and immune to Hold Person... good catch. The paladin couldn't fail his save unless Cha was his ditch stat. Cha bonus to saves + high Wis for spells + good Will save = no chance in hell of landing it on him. The Rogue is still sunk.

As almost all of the damage in this encounter will probably be coming from the barb/pali/rogue team, stopping two of them in their tracks will effectively render the team helpless. The cleric is probably an optimised cohort healer, and the bards are likely to be buffing specialists with low level wizard capabilities. I.e lots of grease and other low level battlefield control spells, but not much in the way of damage.

battlefield control isn't such a bad option in this case. Drop a Darkness on it's head so no one gets hit by the durn gaze, grease to keep it prone since it's reflex save is probably abysmal at best.

Once the other two are stopped, the Barbarian on his own could easily be crunched, and the rest followed up. It would all depend on a few rolls. If the early rolls from the BBEG are low, the party could find it easy with some average rolls. If the early party rolls are low, it could be all over in a few rounds.

I think it's a dangerous encounter, and could result in a TPK. But it's not a certainty, and a few luck re-rolls could make it easy.

No, first round with a charge and a smack will hurt the Barb, with the gaze attack to shut him down the rest away. Rogue gets shut down by Hold Person. Then while the paladin tries to go stand in front, he gets side-stepped to smack the Cleric cohort down to keep the pally from being healed so much. Bards are singing their little hearts out, but really can't meaningfully contribute. Once the cleric is down, he'll finish off the barbarian, then the paladin, then go for the bards. Last, but not least, the still held rogue will be lunch.

EDIT: The Swordsage will rock and roll... and will be the savior of the party, depending on what he has. With high will save, he'll be difficult to lock down. As a halfling, however, he's got less damage output, since he's a small race. Also can't move as far. Depending on which maneuvers he took, he can either solo the fight... or be completely worthless.