Demographics Rules

[psychoticbarber]

Does anybody else find the demographics rules in the DMG a bit...odd?

I was rolling my commoners (just numbers, but it's for a post-able campaign setting, so I thought I should do it anyway), and my metropolis apparently has Epic Level Commoners. I just made the epic ones 20th level out of spite.

I don't really have any deep or wise comment to make, I'm just completely agog at the idea of Epic Commoners being anything but a joke made on the forums.

[Dhavaer]

Oh hell yes they're weird. Particularly those damn commoners.

[psychoticbarber]

I have 3 20th Level experts, too. I'll be damned if I ever get around to figuring out what they're all experts at (a total of 10 at 10th or higher)

[Leicontis]

Those 20th level experts would be people like head librarians, master craftsmen, etc.

[Dhavaer]

Moist von Lipwig or Reacher Gilt, too.

[Diggorian]

I agree with the "6th level is super human" view so I cap levels depending on race because non-adventures cant reach those levels living a civilian life IMO.

For generated NPCs I roll the starting age dice x their level (twice level for NPC classes since they should level slower) to weed them out with time. Commoners and warriors use the Barbarian age dice, Aristocrats and experts use the Bard dice, Adepts the cleric dice.

So 20th level Human Commoners start at 115 years old on average ... dead.

[Gralamin]

Hey, if there is a Moist, you have to have a level 20 Aristocrat named Vetinari

Edit: also page 138 under Other NPCs in the community states: "The maximum level for any class is 20th"

[Amiria]

I have no problem with epic commoners. I an metroplis I had a 26th level commoner. I decided that he was a dwarven baker, the only person in the world who was able to make vorpal dwarf bread.

[psychoticbarber]

Those 20th level experts would be people like head librarians, master craftsmen, etc.

Oh I know how to do it. I'm just lazy .

Incidentally, my three 20th level experts are: Weaponsmith (Lancier: Lance Specialist), Stonecutter, and Gemcutter.

In case you were curious.

I have no problem with epic commoners. I an metroplis I had a 26th level commoner. I decided that he was a dwaven baker, the only person in the world who was able to make vorpal dwarf bread.

...I want some vorpal dwarf bread RIGHT NOW. Thanks, now I'm hungry .

[SMDVogrin]

Incidentally, my three 20th level experts are: Weaponsmith (Lancier: Lance Specialist), Stonecutter, and Gemcutter.

In case you were curious.

Hmmm, so if we apply logic to the situation (I know, bad idea)...

Obviously this city has a large mining industry, and supports large numbers of Cavalrymen....

:)

[dr.cello]

Moist, Reacher and Vetinari are far too impressive to be NPC classes (and Vetinari is a trained assassin, remember?). The problem is finding a class which really fits them. Vetinari is probably a rogue/assassin, but what about Moist and Reacher? This merits pondering. Probably in its own thread.

[Dhavaer]

Vetinari is almost certainly a Rogue, but neither Moist nor Reacher show anything other than fantastic interpersonal skills. They could be very accurately represented as high Wisdom, high Charisma Experts with a lot of Skill Focus and similar feats.

[dr.cello]

Moist seems to have an almost supernatural ability about him, though, in terms of being able to stir up a frenzy, his 'gift' of having a completely forgettable appearance, and in being able to read people. The problem is that nearly all classes are focused on combat ability, but I've always read Moist's abilities as being superior to that of a generic NPC con artist. It seems more in keeping with Pterry's writings to have a character be exceptionally gifted not necessarily because of masses of experience but because they have unique abilities that give them an edge.

[Corolinth]

Stuff that appears in blue books isn't so much rules as guidelines.

I'm quite sure that there are real people in the real world who's array of skills, and/or mastery thereof, would require an character level in excess of 20 in order to come up with all of the skill points. It's the d20 concept of BAB and saves that becomes problematic with epic-level commoners.

[Xuincherguixe]

Vorpal bread. On a confirmed critical instantly slays hunger.

[Narmoth]

The only thing you need that rule or an equvalent of is for desiding if a sertain craftsman or sage can be foun in the place. If there are only one 20th level sage in town, and he specialize in poisinons, you can talk to him for any cure you need, but you will not find any sage who knows enough about dragons to tell what diet you should put your newfound gold dragon hatchling on.

[CASTLEMIKE]

I usually make those high level commoners DMG witch and warlock "sorcerers" which justifies their levels.

[psychoticbarber]

Hmmm, so if we apply logic to the situation (I know, bad idea)...

Obviously this city has a large mining industry, and supports large numbers of Cavalrymen....

:)

Actually the mining is huge, but it's a port town. Essentially he's the kind of lance maker you come see if you're a charging General with lots of cash. The Lance Maker lives in a port town because he's just that good. People will come to see him .

[Wraithy]

Those 20th level experts would be people like head librarians, master craftsmen, etc.

trust me I've worked in a library, you could teach a monkey to do it, but the monkey would probably spite you for it. libraries are places for intellectuals to go, not to work.

[Driderman]

I with, er whoever it was. My commoners cap around lvls 4-8, depending on how awesome they are. I mean, a dwarf expert can create masterwork items at lvl 1 with the proper equipment (Artisan tools, forge, Apprentice, etc, can't remember the details but read it in the Analyzing Aragorn article) so why would he be epic level?
I cases like this, the DMG can go suck an elf. I prefer a more sensible approach than having epic level commoners

[Dhavaer]

trust me I've worked in a library, you could teach a monkey to do it, but the monkey would probably spite you for it. libraries are places for intellectuals to go, not to work.

Really? You need a whole heap of qualifications to be a librarian here.

[paigeoliver]

Yes, they have crazy qualifications simply because they CAN. The number of people wanting the full time positions at the library is massive compared to the number of actual positions.

But, plenty of people meet those qualifications without being particularly intelligent or competent, while many others got their jobs years or decades before they started wanting those qualifications.

Really? You need a whole heap of qualifications to be a librarian here.

[BRC]

Moist, Reacher and Vetinari are far too impressive to be NPC classes (and Vetinari is a trained assassin, remember?). The problem is finding a class which really fits them. Vetinari is probably a rogue/assassin, but what about Moist and Reacher? This merits pondering. Probably in its own thread.

Moist and Reacher are both Con-men, somaybe Rogue/Bard, or a homebrewed class. Vetinari would proably be Aristocrat 20/assasin10 or somthing (yes that puts him at level 30, but he's Havlock friggen Vetinari). Ridcully would be an epic level wizard (Obviously), Vimes would be a fighter with maybe a homebrewed PrC. The Band With Rocks in would proably be 2 7th level Bards (cliff and Glod) and one 15th or 20th level bard (Imp).

Oh yeah, Epic Level Merchant: C.M.O.T Dibbler

EDIT: also, 100 points for whoever Homebrews the stats for the Peicemaker

[Inyssius Tor]

Oh god, it's the "everyone-is-crazy-high-level" viewpoint back from the grave...

If we really want to do that, I would say that Moist and Reacher are probably Experts with levels of Exemplar (Complete Adventurer).

[bosssmiley]

I have no problem with epic commoners. I an metroplis I had a 26th level commoner. I decided that he was a dwarven baker, the only person in the world who was able to make vorpal dwarf bread.

"T' bread wi' t' keen edge." (after Pratchett's "Fifth Elephant")

I take a leaf out of K's book: anyone with more than 5 NPC class levels gets to PrC into a *real* PC class, just as PCs get to PrC into prestige classes. I mean, now many levels of commoner or expert do you need?

To cite another Discworld example: Young Vimes (as seen in "Night Watch") and Drunken Vimes (as seen in "Guards! Guards!") may have started out as a simple warrior, but he's developed and interesting enough to be PC-level by the later guard's books. I'd give him a couple of rogue levels ('the infamous Vimes Elbow' and his street knowledge), some barb' ("WHERE'S MY COW???") and either fighter or marshall to taste.

Colour characters like CMOT Dibbler, All Jolson, or Gimlet of the Hole Food Delicatessen though. They're level 1-5 NPC classes...

[Golthur]

Yes, they have crazy qualifications simply because they CAN. The number of people wanting the full time positions at the library is massive compared to the number of actual positions.

But, plenty of people meet those qualifications without being particularly intelligent or competent, while many others got their jobs years or decades before they started wanting those qualifications.

Well, I have to say that the librarians here are almost all uniformly intelligent and competent.

They make excellent recommendations, are helpful with researching various topics, and, very frequently, when I have specific questions about a book, some staff member in the library at that moment has actually read that book, and can discuss it intelligently in a great amount of detail. There is the occasional belligerent misanthrope librarian (particularly at the largest library in the city), but they're fairly rare.

Back on topic, I'd say that epic level experts/warriors/commoners would be the creme-de-la-creme of the land; people who are known far and wide, and are sought out by the powers that be for their astonishing expertise and skill.

I have no problem with it - PCs aren't the only special ones, you know

[Karsh]

People come from far and wide to see this epic commoner's farming prowess. His skill with a plow is unparalleled. Most importantly, he has one feat which puts him a cut above the others: Grow Epic Rutabaga.

[horseboy]

People come from far and wide to see this epic commoner's farming prowess. His skill with a plow is unparalleled. Most importantly, he has one feat which puts him a cut above the others: Grow Epic Rutabaga.

Hey, somebody's gotta grow that 300# pumpkin.

[Elana]

I with, er whoever it was. My commoners cap around lvls 4-8, depending on how awesome they are. I mean, a dwarf expert can create masterwork items at lvl 1 with the proper equipment (Artisan tools, forge, Apprentice, etc, can't remember the details but read it in the Analyzing Aragorn article) so why would he be epic level?
I cases like this, the DMG can go suck an elf. I prefer a more sensible approach than having epic level commoners

He can't be epic level, but there is a good reason to be of higher level.

He can push up the craft DC by 10 so he can finish the masterwork items faster.

And of course those high level commoners and experts are only found in a metropolis.
Since nowhere else they could get enough customers for masterwork items that it would matter.