TWF vs. THF (Redux)

[Funkyodor]

I was doing some research before making a dual wielding waraxe dwarf fighter, and was a little confused about the benefits. I hear on this forum alot about how THF is better, but my work showed otherwise. Is there a mistake in my math? I don't have a problem with STR or DEX (both are 18's) and I made some assumptions about magic and STR lvls. For 4 out of 12 feats by lvl 12 I don't think it's half bad.

Level 1
Strength 18
Weapon Focus +1
Weapon Spec +0
Magic Weapon Bonus +0
THF
Max Dmg to BBA (High AC Big Bad ***) +6
Max Dmg to Mooks +8
TWF
Max Dmg to BBA +6
Max Dmg to Mooks +8

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{table]THF|Max AC hittable|Dmg|Max Pwr Attk|Dmg
Attk 1|AC 26|+6|AC 25|+8
TWF|Max AC hittable|Dmg|Max Pwr Attk|Dmg
Attk 1|AC 24|+4|AC 23|+5
Attk 1a|AC 24|+2|AC 23|+3[/table]

Level 6
Strength 20
Weapon Focus +1
Weapon Spec +2
Magic Weapon Bonus +2
THF
Max Dmg to BBA +23
Max Dmg to Mooks +37
TWF
Max Dmg to BBA +31
Max Dmg to Mooks +45

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{table]THF|Max AC hittable|Dmg|Max Pwr Attk|Dmg
Attk 1|AC 34|+11.5|AC 28|+23.5
Attk 2|AC 29|+11.5|AC 28|+13.5
TWF|Max AC hittable|Dmg|Max Pwr Attk|Dmg
Attk 1|AC 32|+9|AC 26|+15
Attk 1a|AC 32|+6.5|AC 26|+12.5
Attk 2|AC 27|+9|AC 26|+10
Attk 2a|AC 27|+6.5|AC 26|+7.5[/table]

Level 12
Strength 24
Weapon Focus +2
Weapon Spec +4
Magic Weapon Bonus +3
THF
Max Dmg to BBA +52.5
Max Dmg to Mooks +94.5
TWF
Max Dmg to BBA +73.5
Max Dmg to Mooks +115.5

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{table]THF|Max AC hittable|Dmg|Max Pwr Attk|Dmg
Attk 1|AC 44|+17.5|AC 32|+41.5
Attk 2|AC 39|+17.5|AC 32|+31.5
Attk 3|AC 34|+17.5|AC 32|+21.5
TWF|Max AC hittable|Dmg|Max Pwr Attk|Dmg
Attk 1|AC 42|+14|AC 30|+26
Attk 1a|AC 42|+10.5|AC 30|+22.5
Attk 2|AC 37|+14|AC 30|+21
Attk 2a|AC 37|+10.5|AC 30|+17.5
Attk 3|AC 32|+14|AC 30|+16
Attk 3a|AC 32|+10.5|AC 30|+12.5[/table]

Level 20
Strength 30
Weapon Focus +2
Weapon Spec +4
Magic Weapon Bonus +5
THF
Max Dmg to BBA +96
Max Dmg to Mooks +196
TWF
Max Dmg to BBA +118
Max Dmg to Mooks +213

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{table]THF|Max AC hittable|Dmg|Max Pwr Attk|Dmg
Attk 1|AC 57|+24|AC 37|+64
Attk 2|AC 52|+24|AC 37|+54
Attk 3|AC 47|+24|AC 37|+44
Attk 4|AC 42|+24|AC 37|+34
TWF|Max AC hittable|Dmg|Max Pwr Attk|Dmg
Attk 1|AC 55|+19|AC 35|+39
Attk 1a|AC 55|+14|AC 35|+34
Attk 2|AC 50|+19|AC 35|+34
Attk 2a|AC 50|+14|AC 35|+29
Attk 3|AC 45|+19|AC 35|+29
Attk 3a|AC 45|+14|AC 35|+24
Attk 4|AC 40|+19|AC 35|+24[/table]

[its_all_ogre]

search the forum before staring yet another one of these threads please.
and how is your twf guy doing more damage than the thf guy?
this is impossible, even at level 1.

[Zherog]

It looks like his numbers aren't taking into account hit probabilities and such. He's assuming all attacks hit, and adding up the damage. I think that's the problem...

[Dausuul]

It looks like his numbers aren't taking into account hit probabilities and such. He's assuming all attacks hit, and adding up the damage. I think that's the problem...

Also not accounting for the extra feats you have to spend on TWF.

[lotofsnow]

Not taking Power Attack into account. Also, he apparently has two +2 weapons at level 6. Maybe my DM is stingy, but I'm lucky to have a single +1 weapon at that level. Wealth by level for 6th is 13,000. Two +2 weapons costs 16,000.

[Tyger]

Exactly. It all comes down to feats taken and the likelihood of hitting. Yes, if every attack hits, and they all do maximum damage, the TWFer will outdamage the THFer. Statistically however, the THFer is hitting a lot more, especially at low levels. That's the main factor.

But there are hundreds, if not thousands of discussions on this exact topic... with lots of math. Enjoy!

EDIT: And the headings "Max AC Hittable" are inaccurate. A natural 20 always hits. So the Max AC Hittable should be 1,000,000. Give or take.

[Arakune]

you didn't take into account Power attack and TWF feat chains.
also, two handed weapons do 1.5 time the damage, and the off hand weapon do 0.5 damage.

and THF and power attack do 2.0 times the damage

----------
you guys are too quick!

[NullAshton]

What you need to do is something like me. Have exactly identical stats for both TWF and THF builds, with different degrees of power attack.

To equalize the chances the attack and get that variable out, have the two-weapon build have 2 points less of power attack. That will prevent you from having to calculate the different average damage due to missing.

EDIT:

Also, the main hand weapon does 1x damage, and the off-hand weapon does no power attack damage due to it usually being a light weapon. Two-weapon fighting is mainly only good if you have a couple of dice or so of bonus damage.

[PinkysBrain]

Even ignoring powerattack TWF just sucks.

Let's take a level 6 fighter with TWF, ITWF and OTWF at level 6 with two dwarven waraxes vs a greatsword wielder. High AC CR6 monsters have around 20 AC.

THF : attack bonus 6 (BAB) + 5 (strength) + 1 (enhancement) + 1 weapon focus = 13. Damage on full attack against AC 20, (0.7 + 0.45) * (2d6 + 7 + 1) =~ 17,25

TWF : attack bonus 11. Damage on a full attack (0.6 + 0.35) * ((1d10 + 5 + 1) + (1d10 + 2 + 1)) =~ 19

3 feats down the hole and an 18 you could have put in con or wisdom for that? A bad trade off.

PS. if you can't take Oversized TWF then TWF sucks even worse ... and if you can take it then you can also take leap attack, which gives the advantage to THF.

[Zherog]

Even ignoring powerattack TWF just sucks...

...unless you have extra damage dice such as sneak attack or sudden strike, or you have a consistent source of extra damage on every attack such as a ranger's favored enemy or a pair of flaming weapons.

[NullAshton]

...unless you have extra damage dice such as sneak attack or sudden strike, or you have a consistent source of extra damage on every attack such as a ranger's favored enemy or a pair of flaming weapons.

Correct. Even 1d6 of extra damage will be enough to tip the scales in the TWF guys favor. Please note though, that it still assumes 2 points of power attack on the THF's part, to ignore the attack penalty.

[Matthew]

Okay, basically, here's some Math:

Level 1

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Fighter 1 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave,
[Base Attack Bonus (1) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (1) + Flanking (2)] = (3 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Power Attack (2)] = (2D6+2, 9.0)

Fighter 1 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave,
[Base Attack Bonus (1) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (1) + Flanking (2)] = (3 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+1, 5.5)

Fighter 1 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (1 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8)] = (1D8, 4.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (1 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8)] = (1D8, 4.5)

Rogue 1 A (Short Sword)
Feats: [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (0) + Flanking (2)] = (2 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (1D6)] = (2D6, 7.0)

Rogue 1 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (0) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (0 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (1D6)] = (2D6, 7.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (0) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (0 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (1D6)] = (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 10

Fighter 1 A 70% (2D6+2, 9.0)
Fighter 1 B 70% (1D8+1, 5.5)
Fighter 1 C 60% (1D8, 4.5) / 60% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 1 A 65% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 1 B 55% (2D6, 7.0) / 55% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 12

Fighter 1 A 60% (2D6+2, 9.0)
Fighter 1 B 60% (1D8+1, 5.5)
Fighter 1 C 50% (1D8, 4.5) / 50% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 1 A 55% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 1 B 45% (2D6, 7.0) / 45% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 14

Fighter 1 A 50% (2D6+2, 9.0)
Fighter 1 B 50% (1D8+1, 5.5)
Fighter 1 C 40% (1D8, 4.5) / 40% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 1 A 45% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 1 B 35% (2D6, 7.0) / 35% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 16

Fighter 1 A 40% (2D6+2, 9.0)
Fighter 1 B 40% (1D8+1, 5.5)
Fighter 1 C 30% (1D8, 4.5) / 30% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 1 A 35% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 1 B 25% (2D6, 7.0) / 25% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 18

Fighter 1 A 30% (2D6+2, 9.0)
Fighter 1 B 30% (1D8+1, 5.5)
Fighter 1 C 20% (1D8, 4.5) / 20% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 1 A 25% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 1 B 15% (2D6, 7.0) / 15% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 20

Fighter 1 A 20% (2D6+2, 9.0)
Fighter 1 B 20% (1D8+1, 5.5)
Fighter 1 C 10% (1D8, 4.5) / 10% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 1 A 15% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 1 B 5% (2D6, 7.0) / 5% (2D6, 7.0)

Level 2

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Fighter 2 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = (3 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Power Attack (4)] = (2D6+4, 11.0)

Fighter 2 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = (3 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+2, 6.5)

Fighter 2 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (3 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8)] = (1D8, 4.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (3 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8)] = (1D8, 4.5)

Rogue 2 A (Short Sword)
Feats: [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (1) + Flanking (2)] = (3 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (1D6)] = (2D6, 7.0)

Rogue 2 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (1 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (1D6)] = (2D6, 7.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (1 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (1D6)] = (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 10

Fighter 2 A 70% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 2 B 70% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 2 C 70% (1D8, 4.5) / 70% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 2 A 70% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 2 B 60% (2D6, 7.0) / 60% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 12

Fighter 2 A 60% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 2 B 60% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 2 C 60% (1D8, 4.5) / 60% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 2 A 60% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 2 B 50% (2D6, 7.0) / 50% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 14

Fighter 2 A 50% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 2 B 50% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 2 C 50% (1D8, 4.5) / 50% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 2 A 50% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 2 B 40% (2D6, 7.0) / 40% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 16

Fighter 2 A 40% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 2 B 40% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 2 C 40% (1D8, 4.5) / 40% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 2 A 40% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 2 B 30% (2D6, 7.0) / 30% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 18

Fighter 2 A 30% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 2 B 30% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 2 C 30% (1D8, 4.5) / 30% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 2 A 30% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 2 B 20% (2D6, 7.0) / 20% (2D6, 7.0)

Attacking Armour Class 20

Fighter 2 A 20% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 2 B 20% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 2 C 20% (1D8, 4.5) / 20% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 2 A 20% (2D6, 7.0)
Rogue 2 B 10% (2D6, 7.0) / 10% (2D6, 7.0)

Level 3

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Fighter 3 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = (4 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Power Attack (4)] = (2D6+4, 11.0)

Fighter 3 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = (4 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+2, 6.5)

Fighter 3 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack,
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (0) + Flanking (2)] = (4 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Power Attack (0)] = (1D8, 4.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (0) + Flanking (2)] = (4 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Power Attack (0)] = (1D8, 4.5)

Rogue 3 A (Short Sword)
Feats: [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (2) + Flanking (2)] = (4 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (2D6)] = (3D6, 10.5)

Rogue 3 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse,
[Base Attack Bonus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (2 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (2D6)] = (3D6, 10.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (2 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (2D6)] = (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 10

Fighter 3 A 75% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 3 B 75% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 3 C 75% (1D8, 4.5) / 75% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 3 A 75% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 3 B 65% (3D6, 10.5) / 65% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 12

Fighter 3 A 65% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 3 B 65% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 3 C 65% (1D8, 4.5) / 65% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 3 A 65% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 3 B 55% (3D6, 10.5) / 55% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 14

Fighter 3 A 55% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 3 B 55% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 3 C 55% (1D8, 4.5) / 55% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 3 A 55% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 3 B 45% (3D6, 10.5) / 45% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 16

Fighter 3 A 45% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 3 B 45% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 3 C 45% (1D8, 4.5) / 45% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 3 A 45% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 3 B 35% (3D6, 10.5) / 35% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 18

Fighter 3 A 35% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 3 B 35% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 3 C 35% (1D8, 4.5) / 35% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 3 A 35% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 3 B 25% (3D6, 10.5) / 25% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 20

Fighter 3 A 25% (2D6+4, 11.0)
Fighter 3 B 25% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Fighter 3 C 25% (1D8, 4.5) / 25% (1D8, 4.5)
Rogue 3 A 25% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 3 B 15% (3D6, 10.5) / 15% (3D6, 10.5)

Level 4

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Fighter 4 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (4)] = (2D6+6, 13.0)

Fighter 4 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+4, 8.5)

Fighter 4 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (0) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (0)] = (1D8+2, 6.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (0) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (0)] = (1D8+2, 6.5)

Rogue 4 A (Short Sword)
Feats: None Relevant,
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (2D6)] = (3D6, 10.5)

Rogue 4 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse,
[Base Attack Bonus (3) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (3 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (2D6)] = (3D6, 10.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (3) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = (3 AB)
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (2D6)] = (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 10

Fighter 4 A 80% (2D6+6, 13.0)
Fighter 4 B 80% (1D8+4, 8.5)
Fighter 4 C 80% (1D8+2, 6.5) / 80% (1D8, 6.5)
Rogue 4 A 80% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 4 B 70% (3D6, 10.5) / 70% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 12

Fighter 4 A 70% (2D6+6, 13.0)
Fighter 4 B 70% (1D8+4, 8.5)
Fighter 4 C 70% (1D8+2, 6.5) / 70% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Rogue 4 A 70% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 4 B 60% (3D6, 10.5) / 60% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 14

Fighter 4 A 60% (2D6+6, 13.0)
Fighter 4 B 60% (1D8+4, 8.5)
Fighter 4 C 60% (1D8+2, 6.5) / 60% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Rogue 4 A 60% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 4 B 50% (3D6, 10.5) / 50% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 16

Fighter 4 A 50% (2D6+6, 13.0)
Fighter 4 B 50% (1D8+4, 8.5)
Fighter 4 C 50% (1D8+2, 6.5) / 50% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Rogue 4 A 50% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 4 B 40% (3D6, 10.5) / 40% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 18

Fighter 4 A 40% (2D6+6, 13.0)
Fighter 4 B 40% (1D8+4, 8.5)
Fighter 4 C 40% (1D8+2, 6.5) / 40% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Rogue 4 A 40% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 4 B 30% (3D6, 10.5) / 30% (3D6, 10.5)

Attacking Armour Class 20

Fighter 4 A 30% (2D6+6, 13.0)
Fighter 4 B 30% (1D8+4, 8.5)
Fighter 4 C 30% (1D8+2, 6.5) / 30% (1D8+2, 6.5)
Rogue 4 A 30% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 4 B 20% (3D6, 10.5) / 20% (3D6, 10.5)

Level 5

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Fighter 5 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (6)] = (2D6+6, 15.0)

Fighter 5 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Fighter 5 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1) + Flanking (2)] = (5 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)

Rogue 5 A (Short Sword)
Feats: None Relevant,
[Base Attack Bonus (3) + Flanking (2)] = 5 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (3D6)] = (4D6, 14.0)

Rogue 5 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse,
[Base Attack Bonus (3) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 3 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (3D6)] = (4D6, 14.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (3) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 3 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (3D6)] = (4D6, 14.0)

Attacking Armour Class 10

Fighter 5 A 80% (2D6+8, 15.0)
Fighter 5 B 80% (1D8+5, 9.5)
Fighter 5 C 80% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 80% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Rogue 5 A 80% (4D6, 14.0)
Rogue 5 B 70% (4D6, 14.0) / 70% (4D6, 14.0)

Attacking Armour Class 12

Fighter 5 A 70% (2D6+8, 15.0)
Fighter 5 B 70% (1D8+5, 9.5)
Fighter 5 C 70% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 70% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Rogue 5 A 70% (4D6, 14.0)
Rogue 5 B 60% (4D6, 14.0) / 60% (4D6, 14.0)

Attacking Armour Class 14

Fighter 5 A 60% (2D6+8, 15.0)
Fighter 5 B 60% (1D8+5, 9.5)
Fighter 5 C 60% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 60% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Rogue 5 A 60% (4D6, 14.0)
Rogue 5 B 50% (4D6, 14.0) / 50% (4D6, 14.0)

Attacking Armour Class 16

Fighter 5 A 50% (2D6+8, 15.0)
Fighter 5 B 50% (1D8+5, 9.5)
Fighter 5 C 50% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 50% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Rogue 5 A 50% (4D6, 14.0)
Rogue 5 B 40% (4D6, 14.0) / 40% (4D6, 14.0)

Attacking Armour Class 18

Fighter 5 A 40% (2D6+8, 15.0)
Fighter 5 B 40% (1D8+5, 9.5)
Fighter 5 C 40% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 40% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Rogue 5 A 40% (4D6, 14.0)
Rogue 5 B 30% (4D6, 14.0) / 30% (4D6, 14.0)

Attacking Armour Class 20

Fighter 5 A 30% (2D6+8, 15.0)
Fighter 5 B 30% (1D8+5, 9.5)
Fighter 5 C 30% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 30% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Rogue 5 A 30% (4D6, 14.0)
Rogue 5 B 20% (4D6, 14.0) / 20% (4D6, 14.0)

Level 6

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Fighter 6 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (6 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (6)] = (2D6+6, 15.0)

Fighter 6 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (6 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Fighter 6 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1) + Flanking (2)] = (6 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1) + Flanking (2)] = (6 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)

Rogue 6 A (Short Sword)
Feats: None Relevant,
[Base Attack Bonus (4) + Flanking (2)] = 6 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (3D6)] = (4D6, 14.0)

Rogue 6 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (4) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 4 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (3D6)] = (4D6, 14.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (4) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 4 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (3D6)] = (4D6, 14.0)

Level 7

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Fighter 7 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (7 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (6)] = (2D6+6, 15.0)

Fighter 7 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Weapon Focus (1) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (7 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+5, 9.5)

Fighter 7 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-]
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1) + Flanking (2)] = (7 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Weapon Focus (1) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (1) + Flanking (2)] = (7 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (1)] = (1D8+3, 7.5)

Rogue 7 A (Short Sword)
Feats: None Relevant,
[Base Attack Bonus (5) + Flanking (2)] = 7 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (4D6)] = (5D6, 17.5)

Rogue 7 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (5) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 5 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (4D6)] = (5D6, 17.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (5) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 5 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (4D6)] = (5D6, 17.5)

Level 8

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Fighter 8 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword)
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = (8 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (8)] = (2D6+10, 17.0)

Fighter 8 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = (8 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+6, 10.5)

Fighter 8 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword),
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = (8 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+4, 8.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (2) + Flanking (2)] = (8 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (2)] = (1D8+4, 8.5)

Rogue 8 A (Short Sword)
Feats: None Relevant,
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Flanking (2)] = 8 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (4D6)] = (5D6, 17.5)

Rogue 8 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (6) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 6 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (4D6)] = (5D6, 17.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (6) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 6 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (4D6)] = (5D6, 17.5)

Level 9

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Fighter 9 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = (8 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (10)] = (2D6+12, 19.0)

Fighter 9 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = (8 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)

Fighter 9 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (9 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+4, 9.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (9 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+4, 9.5)

Rogue 9 A (Short Sword)
Feats: [-], [-], [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (6) + Flanking (2)] = 8 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)

Rogue 9 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (6) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 6 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (6) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 6 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)

Level 10

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Fighter 10 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = (9 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (10)] = (2D6+12, 19.0)

Fighter 10 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = (9 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)

Fighter 10 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (9 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+4, 9.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (9 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+4, 9.5)

Rogue 10 A (Short Sword)
Feats: [-], [-], [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (7) + Flanking (2)] = 9 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)

Rogue 10 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (7) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 7 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (7) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 7 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (5D6)] = (6D6, 21.0)

Level 11

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Fighter 11 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (11) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = (10 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (10)] = (2D6+12, 19.0)

Fighter 11 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (11) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = (10 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)

Fighter 11 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (11) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (10 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+4, 9.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (11) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (10 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (2) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+4, 9.5)

Rogue 11 A (Short Sword)
Feats: [-], [-], [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (8) + Flanking (2)] = 10 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5.0)

Rogue 11 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (8) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 8 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (8) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 8 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5)

Level 12

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Fighter 12 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (12) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = (11 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (10)] = (2D6+14, 21.0)

Fighter 12 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (12) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (5) + Flanking (2)] = (11 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (5)] = (1D8+9, 13.5)

Fighter 12 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Greater Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (12) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (11 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (12) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (3) + Flanking (2)] = (11 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (3)] = (1D8+7, 11.5)

Rogue 12 A (Short Sword)
Feats: [-], [-], [-], [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Flanking (2)] = 11 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5)

Rogue 12 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 9 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (9) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 9 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (6D6)] = (7D6, 24.5)

Level 13

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Fighter 13 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (13) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = (11 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (12)] = (2D6+16, 23.0)

Fighter 13 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (13) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = (11 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)

Fighter 13 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation, Greater Two Weapon Fighting,
[Base Attack Bonus (13) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = (11 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+8, 12.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (13) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = (11 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+8, 12.5)

Rogue 13 A (Short Sword)
Feats: [-], [-], [-], [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) + Flanking (2)] = 11 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)

Rogue 13 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (9) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 9 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (9) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 9 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)

Level 14

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Fighter 14 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (14) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = (12 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (12)] = (2D6+16, 23.0)

Fighter 14 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (14) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = (12 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)

Fighter 14 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (14) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = (12 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+8, 12.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (14) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = (12 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+8, 12.5)

Rogue 14 A (Short Sword)
Feats: [-], [-], [-], [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (10) + Flanking (2)] = 12 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)

Rogue 14 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (10) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 10 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)
[Base Attack Bonus (10) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 10 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (7D6)] = (8D6, 28.0)

Level 15

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Fighter 15 A (Great Sword)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Great Sword), [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (15) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = (13 AB)
[Great Sword (2D6) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (12)] = (2D6+16, 23.0)

Fighter 15 B (Long Sword and Heavy Shield)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Power Attack, Cleave, [-], [-], Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (15) + Weapon Focus (2) – Power Attack (6) + Flanking (2)] = (13 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (6)] = (1D8+10, 14.5)

Fighter 15 C (Two Long Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Long Sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], Greater Weapon Focus (Long Sword), [-], [-], Greater Weapon Specialisation, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (15) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = (13 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+8, 12.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (15) + Weapon Focus (2) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) – Power Attack (4) + Flanking (2)] = (13 AB)
[Long Sword (1D8) + Weapon Specialisation (4) + Power Attack (4)] = (1D8+8, 12.5)

Rogue 15 A (Short Sword)
Feats: [-], [-], [-], [-], [-], [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (11) + Flanking (2)] = 13 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (8D6)] = (9D6, 31.5)

Rogue 15 B (Two Short Swords)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, [-], Improved Two Weapon Fighting, [-], [-],
[Base Attack Bonus (11) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 11 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (8D6)] = (9D6, 31.5)
[Base Attack Bonus (11) – Two Weapon Fighting (2) + Flanking (2)] = 11 AB
[Short Sword (1D6) + Sneak Attack (8D6)] = (9D6, 31.5)

You should be able to pretty much see what's going on from there (also, remember, these are Full Attacks and not Standard Attacks or Charges, where Two Weapon Fighting is useless).

[Elana]

Actually what is better mainly comes down to 2 things.

What kind of opponents do you face (If they are all AC 10 power attack really rules, if you always need a 20 to hit, anything that gives you more attacks is better)

The 2nd thing is your character, if you have a str of 10 and a low BAB you are probably better off with TWF, as THF don't get you that much. (And of course weapon finesse to give you some to hit chance)

[the_tick_rules]

two weapon fighting does take more investment, but if people on this forum were in charge everyone would either be spellcasters or thf people so just do whatever you want.

[Matthew]

Really? That doesn't sound right. I would have thought if people on this Forum were in charge then, Spell Casters would be 'powered down', Non Spell Casters would be 'powered up' or a bit of both. Anyway, this was quite evidently a question about the wheres and whyfores of of the mechanics, so I don't think "do what you like" qualifies as a constructive contribution.

[Funkyodor]

Thanks for the responses. Yeah I realize now my charts assumed 100% hit rate for all attacks. But reading that the TWF -2 to hit is balanced by a +4 Dmg THF power attack is flawed. For every +1 weapon enchantment the TWF gets an extra +1 dmg, and for every Weapon Specialization the TWF gets +2 Dmg. So with normal Weapon Spec and a +2 weapon the TWF should be even with the TWF. But if there is no Power Attack due to needing a 16-17 to hit the TWF does creep ahead due to enchantments and specialization.

[Corolinth]

Not taking Power Attack into account. Also, he apparently has two +2 weapons at level 6. Maybe my DM is stingy, but I'm lucky to have a single +1 weapon at that level. Wealth by level for 6th is 13,000. Two +2 weapons costs 16,000.

This is one of the hidden benefits of two-weapon fighting. One-handed weapons are the most commonly rolled random magical weapons. Longswords and short swords, typically. Wealth by level doesn't mean a damn thing after character creation, because you're going to have whatever wealth the DM has placed in his campaign (and some of it, you might have missed).

Scythes and spiked chains are extremely popular for optimized builds, but they overlook the fact that people don't use those weapons.

[Matthew]

That's true, except that Default D&D assumes the existence of the (much hated) custom builder Magic Shop, so you can upgrade and improve your weapons. Here's why Two Weapon Fighting once again loses out. The Two Handed Fighter only has to enchant one weapon and every enchantment ahead he gains +2 (or more on a charge) Damage from Power Attack. Add in that Speed enhancements don't stack and Two Handed Fighters are making a mockery of their Two Weapon Fighting buddies.

[Spiryt]

take leap attack, which gives the advantage to THF.

Not at all.

Notice that

you can double the extra damage dealt by your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.

So if you can attack with Two weapons , you deal overally quadruple damage from Power attack . Improved power attack of Frenzied berserker or Favored Power attack feat would only make advantage of TWF bigger.
Of course, there is problem with getting pounce...

But ranger can always use spell Lions Pounce, (effect - completely powerful charge, but only 5 times a day. And even this only if you are 19th level and have 20 wis...) and Fighter can always spend bonus feat on Two weapon pounce feat.

[Matthew]

Yes, indeed, and Pounce is something that helps out the Two Weapon Fighter no end, but it's still not enough to compensate from its other shortcomings. Unless you have a source of Bonus Damage, you are almost always better off with a Two Handed Weapon.

[Tyger]

Thanks for the responses. Yeah I realize now my charts assumed 100% hit rate for all attacks. But reading that the TWF -2 to hit is balanced by a +4 Dmg THF power attack is flawed. For every +1 weapon enchantment the TWF gets an extra +1 dmg, and for every Weapon Specialization the TWF gets +2 Dmg. So with normal Weapon Spec and a +2 weapon the TWF should be even with the TWF. But if there is no Power Attack due to needing a 16-17 to hit the TWF does creep ahead due to enchantments and specialization.

This assumes then that you have two magical weapons (twice the price). So, three more feats, twice the price, and less likely to hit. There's your answer.

At the end of the day it does come down, mechanically, that THF is numerically superior. There's really no contest there. But as was said above, that doesn't mean that its not cool! :) And there are exceptions to the costs. Rangers for example, get the feats for free... thus obviating a chunk of the argument against TWFers.

[Thinker]

Actually what is better mainly comes down to 2 things.

What kind of opponents do you face (If they are all AC 10 power attack really rules, if you always need a 20 to hit, anything that gives you more attacks is better)

The 2nd thing is your character, if you have a str of 10 and a low BAB you are probably better off with TWF, as THF don't get you that much. (And of course weapon finesse to give you some to hit chance)

Or with Leap Attack + Shock Trooper you can obliterate your opponent in round 1 with negligible miss chance.

Thanks for the responses. Yeah I realize now my charts assumed 100% hit rate for all attacks. But reading that the TWF -2 to hit is balanced by a +4 Dmg THF power attack is flawed. For every +1 weapon enchantment the TWF gets an extra +1 dmg, and for every Weapon Specialization the TWF gets +2 Dmg. So with normal Weapon Spec and a +2 weapon the TWF should be even with the TWF. But if there is no Power Attack due to needing a 16-17 to hit the TWF does creep ahead due to enchantments and specialization.

How are you affording multiple enchantments on each weapon? It gets very expensive very quickly. With Shock Trooper the high AC becomes irrelevant.

[NullAshton]

Two-weapon fighting isn't equal to THF, though. At level 20, you get four main hand attacks, and three off hand attacks. It's really made for medium BAB classes like the rogue, I think, because of that.

I laugh at the fool who uses shock trooper and leap attack combo, then realizes a little too late that the rogue he just attacked has elusive target...

[Corolinth]

"Default D&D" assumes quite the opposite. In fact, the ability to create magical items has been a footnote at the bottom of the wizard class description throughout older editions of D&D. The wizard gained the capability to do so at level 9. The rules for doing so wasn't very well defined, because it was assumed the PCs would be relying primarily on the treasure they discover. In fact, the wizard received the ability to create magical items as a means to explain why the magical items exist that you find as treasure. Incidentally, this is why the craft skill and the item creation feats exist: to explain why your treasure exists. You may take them as a PC, just the same as you could take Profession (Teamster), but they exist primarily for NPCs. This is reflected in the rules for creating and enchanting items. It's one day per thousand gold pieces. This means that adding the keen ability to your +4 greatsword takes you two and a half weeks. The rules are written to discourage PCs from customizing their equipment, whereas nonadventuring NPCs have ample time for such endeavors.

You're only able to go to Bob's Magic Shop to get the weapons customized when the DM is giving you time to do so (and has made available an NPC capable of performing said customization). Secondly, you have to use money to get said weapons customized. Now, a lot of the stuff you find, you're going to hang on to instead of sell, because potions, wands, and scrolls can be very useful. And don't forget, you typically sell magical items for half of their market value.

It is still a benefit (and a fairly significant one) to the two weapon fighter. It just rarely gets discussed.

[Thinker]

Two-weapon fighting isn't equal to THF, though. At level 20, you get four main hand attacks, and three off hand attacks. It's really made for medium BAB classes like the rogue, I think, because of that.

I laugh at the fool who uses shock trooper and leap attack combo, then realizes a little too late that the rogue he just attacked has elusive target...

Fortunately, DnD isn't PvP. Also, you can't expect any player to know an opponent's build. I'm not saying PA is the best around, but it is certainly better than TWF in most circumstances.

[tainsouvra]

Funkyodor, you are looking at the maximum AC you can hit, but not your probability of hitting a CR-appropriate AC. That pretty much invalidates the whole thing.

If you want to get serious about the whole thing, it helps to look at feat expenditures (and the resulting opportunity cost), as well as checking out the amount of gold you're spending on weapons compared to the standard for your level (and thus what other equipment you can't afford). Also good is comparing the damage you can output during a standard action (and thus accounting for mobility) as opposed to only full actions. Looking at attacks of opportunity is handy too.

Correct. Even 1d6 of extra damage will be enough to tip the scales in the TWF guys favor. Please note though, that it still assumes 2 points of power attack on the THF's part, to ignore the attack penalty.

...an assumption which often unfairly biases the comparison in favor of TWF. Once your average damage on a successful hit is 20+, you should only be doing a "power attack for 2" if your opponent's AC is so abysmally low that you can still have a 95% chance to hit while doing so.

[NullAshton]

Funkyodor, you are looking at the maximum AC you can hit, but not your probability of hitting a CR-appropriate AC. That pretty much invalidates the whole thing.

If you want to get serious about the whole thing, it helps to look at feat expenditures (and the resulting opportunity cost), as well as checking out the amount of gold you're spending on weapons compared to the standard for your level (and thus what other equipment you can't afford). Also good is comparing the damage you can output during a standard action (and thus accounting for mobility) as opposed to only full actions. Looking at attacks of opportunity is handy too.

...an assumption which often unfairly biases the comparison in favor of TWF. Once your average damage on a successful hit is 20+, you should only be doing a "power attack for 2" if your opponent's AC is so abysmally low that you can still have a 95% chance to hit while doing so.

Er, tests that I've done with several optimal power attack calculators say otherwise... it's usually always good to have a LITTLE power attack.

[Matthew]

*Stuff*

Corolinth, I know how it worked in previous editions, I prefer to play them for consistant campaign worlds, but sadly that is not how Default D&D works. I don't have anything against people playing D&D 3.x like that, but it isn't how the game is assumed to operate. Frankly you had no chance of a Player Character Wizard making a magical item in previous editions because of the Constitution cost, that is assuming you ever got high enough to do such a thing.
Basically, in 3.x if you can find a settlement with the appropriate GP limit [i.e. Waterdeep, Greyhawk, Sigil] you can buy whatever the hell you want. If you have no 'downtime', then fair enough, you won't be able to upgrade your magical gear and you won't have gear appropriate for the challeneges you are assumed to be able to face. If you look at the NPC examples and their Wealth by level, you will notice that their gear does indeed get upgraded (or at least traded in).
Magic shops are the normal state of affairs.

[tainsouvra]

Er, tests that I've done with several optimal power attack calculators say otherwise... it's usually always good to have a LITTLE power attack.

I'd like to see them, a simple/rounded-off comparison of a 10% increased chance to miss against your average damage comes out with it being less effective than a straight attack once those 2 points per hit are less than 10% of your average. I haven't done any more in-depth than that with Power Attack in several years, though, and I do realize there's more to it than that...so convince me

I'll give an example of what I'm talking about, it isn't what my previous number came from, but just as an example...
If we take a baseline standard attack against a foe that you have a 50% chance of hitting as a base, when you do 20 damage per hit:
Average without power attack is 10. (20*.5)
Average with power attack (1) is 9.45. (21*.45)
Average with power attack (2) is 8.8. (22*.4)

Once over 95% chance to hit or under 5% chance to hit are in effect, Power Attack shines, but in that middle range it's only better when PA's increased damage outweighs your increased miss chance. Full attacks are a little trickier to find where that breakoff occurs, as the first swing might have attack bonus to spare or the last swing might only hit on a 20 either way, but that doesn't make a breakoff cease to exist.

[NullAshton]

Assume a BAB of 20, additional modifiers of +10, against an AC of 30.

From this power attack calculator, assuming a standard 19-20/x2 critical, you do an average of 20.90 damage without power attack. WITH 2 points of power attack, you're apparently doing an average of 22.99 damage apparently... the extra damage is due to criticals.

This is assuming a one handed weapon. With a two handed weapon, it changes drastically. Optimal power attack is at 5 points, for a total of 26.40 average damage.

http://direpress.bin.sh/tools/power.html

There's the calculator I used.

EDIT: Doh, me stupid. It's supposed to be 40 AC, not 30... ah well. At 40 exactly, it is optimal to use no power attack, but even going as low as 39, you still benefit from one point of power attack. By 0.10 of a point of damage, but still...