Odd problem - Pale Master's cohort

[SadisticFishing]

I honestly have no idea what to do, I know people say "rule 0!" but I'd really rather get some input, since I have time...

Alright, so this is my group:

Me: DM
Warmage 17, CN (no deity)
Crusader 6/Cleric 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10, LN (Wee Jas)
Warlock 13/Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 3, NE (no deity)
Monk 2/Sorceror 6/Pale Master 9, LN (Wee Jas)
Monk 2/Paladin 5/Apostle of Peace 10, LG (custom god, the All-God, one of the major players in the campaign as his high priestess is trying to take over the world and stop all other religions)

Alright, well I realize this party isn't as "good" as some might be, they tend (except the warmage) to do the right thing, mostly because the wrong thing gets them and everything they care about killed. It's also a very lawful party, but they seem to get along anyways.

Now, my problem is that the Pale Master wants his cohort, but I can't think of any way that a Lawful Exalted Good Paladin would be able to deal with having an undead in the group, *especially* if it were a Lich as the player wants.

The two questions are: Can the LG paladin be in the group with a non-evil undead without losing powers? (his actual powers come more from Good than the All God, because of his class)

And what kind of non-evil undead cohort can you think of for a level 17 party that wouldn't make it boring for them or boring for me? No Time Stop, and arcane casters are too complicated and time consuming, I think... Bard is one of our main options.

Thanks!

[Neon Knight]

Per RAW, the Paladin is in trouble because he is in a party with Warlock 13/Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 3 who is Neutral Evil.

Quoth the SRD:

Associates

While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

That Paladin has some explaining to do at the Nevada Falls. Get it? Falls? I'm so witty.

[SadisticFishing]

"Unknowingly" :P The Warlock is very, very good at seeming CG, or at most CN, and the only reason his alignment is NE is that he's willing to do absolutely anything to stay alive, cuz of the whole selling his soul thing. He hasn't given the Apostle any reason to doubt him yet, and probably won't.

[Yechezkiel]

Unless you're worried about someone dying, what's the problem with introducing the cohort as it's supposed to be?

It looks like an entire night's worth of roleplaying to me.

[JackMage666]

Took away the Pally's Detect Evil, eh?

Well, if the Warlock can get by, then you can easily slip a Lich in there as well. Or, most other sorts of undead, for that matter. Just make sure hehas an Amulet that gives a constant Undetectable Alignment effect, and an item that casts Gentle Repose 1/day or so odd. Undetectable Alignment means the undead can be any alignment, undetected. Gentle Repose means he looks the exact same as he did when he died, so long as he used it every day. Mundanely conceal any wounds (or, if he died of poison, no problem). And you're set. Deception is the key.

[Neon Knight]

He's a bloody warlock.A Hellfire one. I thought that there would be some blatantly obvious signs. Heck, hasn't the Paladin cast Detect Evil yet and noticed the evil aura coming from among his party?

Well, whatever. Somehow, the warlock who has sold his soul to demons manages to avoid the watchful eye of the paladin in his group.

Aren't Deathless in the Book of Exalted Deeds? Some kind of good undead? I despise that book (and am beginning to despise the core paladin class) so I wouldn't know, but I have heard them mentioned a couple of times when BoED has come up.

[SadisticFishing]

Hrm. Gentle Repose helps my cause, a lot.

Oh, yeah, he does have Detect Evil, he just doesn't have the same stick up his butt as most pallies - he can't afford two, and has to use one for walking.

Still, any intelligent undead that are by the rules allowed to be neutral?

Hellfire Warlock just looks like he's shooting fireballs from his hands. No one knows every type of magic, and even then warlocks are allowed to be good.

[Dausuul]

Per RAW, the Paladin is in trouble because he is in a party with Warlock 13/Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 3 who is Neutral Evil.

Quoth the SRD:


That Paladin has some explaining to do at the Nevada Falls. Get it? Falls? I'm so witty.

Per RAW, paladins do not fall for associating with evil creatures. Read the section on what triggers a fall--associating with evil isn't in there. They're just not supposed to.

[Neon Knight]

Per RAW, paladins do not fall for associating with evil creatures. Read the section on what triggers a fall--associating with evil isn't in there. They're just not supposed to.

Technically true, but what else are you going to do with a Paladin who insists on hanging out with liches?

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Deathless, perhaps? Perhaps not, though. Since it isn't really in the style of a Pale Master.

[kpenguin]

Per RAW, paladins do not fall for associating with evil creatures. Read the section on what triggers a fall--associating with evil isn't in there. They're just not supposed to.

I think that hanging out liches and demons counts as grossly violating the Code of Conduct.

[Dausuul]

I think that hanging out liches and demons counts as grossly violating the Code of Conduct.

Technically, that would only be the case if they harm or threaten innocents... but you could make a solid argument that such a creature by its very existence threatens innocents.

Anyway, whether or not it would result in an actual fall, it's definitely not paladin-kosher.

[Xuincherguixe]

I think the best solution is for the Paladin to fall, and pick up blackguard levels. To the best of my knowledge, Black Guard aren't necessarily always dedicated to evil. They just get their power from evil sources.

So he could you know, still kill other evil stuff that isn't as reasonable as the evil people in the party.

This should not suddenly happen to the player :P

[JackMage666]

The Paladin falling is probably not a very likely situation, though....

Oh, and Blackguards are evil. Very Evil.

[Xuincherguixe]

Well if there's Paladin's that are jerks, why not nice Black Guard? Heh.

[Naga-Darmag]

If you have access to Complete Scoundrel try going gray guard. Not as shingling white as paladins, and not black as night like black guards just a bit gray. The dirty Harry of the paladins.

[lord_khaine]

what about giving the pale master a ghost?
ghosts can as souch have any aligment, and if its a good or nonevil ghost on some attonement mission or such, then the paladin should have no problem with it. (even if the ghost isnt on such a mission, noone says the paladin has to know)

[Leon]

I think that the paladin part is of a lesser interest that the AoP part - how does that work out for all involved (assuming your not always battling Undead or constructs)

Paladin Issues: if you can find a non evil undead that is suitible or in lieu of the other evil party member have a normal one but keep it disgused as something else

[Lapak]

Pretty much the only way that the Paladin could justify remaining in the party with a Hellfire Warlock who (just to confirm it) pings as Evil would be if he was actively working to reform him, and making sure that he kept him from doing anything outright evil even at the cost of his own effort. It would be a noble thing to be trying to keep him on the straight and narrow, making up the losses of those that might end up suffering at his hands, and so on.

But having another player adding an undead cohort would be enough of a step in the wrong direction that if I were DMing I would make the point to the paladin's player that things have come to a head, and he can't just stand by while remaining inside his code. I am usually pretty forgiving about paladins associating with non-good folks so long as they have reasons and work to amend any evils that the others inflict - but that's just too far beyond the pale, especially for an Exalted paladin. Most methods of creating undead I'm familiar with explicitly carry the Evil descriptor and create Evil creatures, so while a Deathless being may be one thing, an undead creature is pretty sure to be a problem. If he finds out, he has to consider whether he's letting the group influence him more than his example is influencing them - whether he's being tainted by Evil more than they're being swayed by Good - and it's likely that he'll have to either object or fall. The thing about deceptions within a party is that they're really hard to maintain, especially with spells - the first area dispel that wipes out Gentle Repose is going to create a sudden crisis.

Now, if he managed to convince the Warlock of the error of his ways and swung his alignment to N or (even better) NG, then he could take on the Pale Master's issue of consorting with undead as his next project and maybe I'd give him some slack if I was DMing. But with the party balance as it is, it's just not going to work as it stands unless there's more to the story.

[Citizen Joe]

OH this is remarkably easy to fix. The All-God simply isn't a god, instead its a deceiver type devil/demon who has fooled all these followers. A little loyalty oath and the paladin inadvertently becomes Blackguard. In fact, it could easily be the same entity to which the warlock swore a pact. Now the Pale Master's cohort could be an 'Angel' sent by the All-God to assist, but is really a disguised Erinyes or other creature sent to do the devil's bidding.

[Dark Knight Renee]

Somehow I don't think the OP was looking for a strict, in-depth discussion of what Paladins Can't Do. In his game, it's quite possible that paladin restrictions are handled just a bit more losely than the strict, RAW friendly interpretations usually seen on this board. Try to keep that in mind, consider pushing the limits of the code/exalted thing, and make suggestions that don't involve telling the OP to make the paladin into a blackgaurd.


Ghosts are intelligent and can be of any alignment. I do believe that there is a Neutral (it was either CN or LN, I believe, not TN) undead in Faerun's Monster Compendium, but I can't remember anything else about it. Of course, Faerun has a number of strange stuff like that, but at least this thing has an actual monster listing.

Edit: The only other undead I can think of that isn't Always Evil is a Lich, which technically doesn't have Always listed in it's description, meaning that a Lich could concievably change alignment. However, as has been discussed to death in another thread, this is extremely unlikely, as well as being a rules interpretation.