Help With Deity-Free Divine Magic Lore

[Enyo]

I've been cutting my teeth in making my first homebrew campaign setting, only to have hit a roadblock: how divine magic works.

The "believe and worship the god of x, receive bacon spells" simply doesn't fit with the more "grounded" world.

What I've worked on so far is that all knowledge of it from every civilized group from the smallest tribe to the biggest empire leads to a common source called the Akashic Realm, where the thoughts, feelings, experiences, souls, etc. reverberate ever since life began.

Recurring patterns of belief within the collective consciousness create nexuses that form domains similar to a patron deity's.

When one channels the force of the Akashic Realm through practices such as meditation, it forms an entity out of them, not unlike a thoughtform, but can become a spritual extension of the person that gives them the ability to cast spells.

The only thing I have a problem is in how the thoughtform gains the "domains". All I could think of is that the specialized abilities are imprinted on, but it's a pretty vague explanation.

[NichG]

What if it's basically that these accumulated beliefs, bits of knowledge, etc define a large interlocking system of relations - a fabric or a network or a flow or whatever analogy you like. However, there are places where something is needed for stuff to mesh up correctly - snarls in the weave, whirlpools in the flow, etc. These places can be understood through comparative study of the sources of knowledge, and if a divine caster is able to identify them they are able to turn themselves into the 'missing piece' which causes everything related to that knot to ground itself out through the caster in the way that they've directed.

It'd be sort of like if there's a prophecy that specifies a chosen one and there are a bunch of indirect conditions that have to be met to identify that person, but instead of just waiting for that to happen by accident someone goes and contrives a way to let themselves qualify for all of the conditions.

So in that context, domains would represent semi-exclusive regions of that pattern. If you satisfy the conditions for the stuff happening within one domain, you can't necessarily satisfy the conditions for other domains. Through careful selection and cleverness, generally you can pick two and get them to work with each-other (but those who spend a life in study, e.g. Contemplatives, can find obscure exceptions and tricks that let them stretch this to three).

[Enyo]

So like a circuit board or blueprints?

Another thing I thought of is that the thoughtforms are parts of a cluster, but it may contradict the concept of the realm being a swirling stream or a cloud-like repository. Or I could be wrong.

[NichG]

If you force me to use a modern analogy, I'd say it'd be something like an SQL database query or a join across tables.

In terms of stuff like prophecies, I think it's easier to explain.

For example, maybe one culture had a myth about a figure bearing a mistletoe crown and a bear pelt who at one point caused the trees of a forest to move out of his way with the wave of a branch. But another culture had a myth about someone wearing the furs of wolves, wielding a spear decked in holly that would cause oceans to part. And another culture might have medicinal traditions about how the oils of plants when floated on the surface of water and applied to a wound could be used to separate out evil influences.

A divine caster would figure out some way to make their mode of dress and action resonate as much as possible with all three of those myths at once - basically putting themselves forth as the 'true figure' that all the various stories were actually talking about before they got confused and diverged from each-other. They might say that the story about separating trees and separating oceans using mistletoe and holly was tied to the power of the oils of those plants to separate out different spirits, and use a flask of plant extract as a material component to focus that explanation. They might dress in leather garb made of bear pelts, but with a wolf's head cloak, thus explaining that the two myths about the bear and the wolf were actually the same. They might carry a spear with a twisted haft, trying to simultaneously be the 'branch' of the first legend while at the same time still being possible as a spear.

It's not that these explanations would be true, but it's that if they were true, suddenly the caster proposes a way for the world to be simpler and for the Akashic Realm to shrink a bit. That releases a sort of tension in the Akasha, letting the story of the world simplify itself a little bit and become a bit more coherent because of the caster's action. As a result, there's some release of energy or some minor re-alignments of the world which the caster can make use of to, e.g., cast Control Plants.

[Pauly]

Step 1. Magic is, by definition, magical and outside of physical rules of the world, whatever that world is.

Step 2. Realize that detailed explanations of how magic works will always fall apart under close examination.

Step 3. Handwave the technical details.

Then you just need to crate a plausible in world explanation.
Star wars uses the force.
Harry Potter needs a correct set of words/thoughts plus an apprpriate gesture with a magic wand.

Ask yourself what is important for a character to make the magic function.
The person's innate attunement to this type of magic?
Using the correct technical form?
The person's level of belief in their diety?
Midichlorians?
Deals with celestial/diabolical beings?
Once you have decided what is important, reverse engineer it until it makes sense. If you try to forward engineer it you'll find yourself disappearing down rabbitholes.

[raspberrybadger]

Hmm. Access to that stuff in general could require enlightenment, and the different domains might then represent different paths to enlightenment - resulting in certain specialties, certain pieces it is easier for a particular person to understand and use.

[Stealth Marmot]

You are not the only one to go for deity-free divine magic. My world has 5 aspects that are not deities, but instead more like a pantheistic concept closer to the Force than any deity. They have wills but are not sentient or personal.

The short of it is that the essence of divine magic is that it is granted through faith and meditation, not through personal power, will, or intelligent use of existing power. If you have a realm that has the collected energy and power of life, then the person is channeling it through the faith and meditation, allowing himself to be a conduit of the energy they are in tune of. Think of the energy of the realm as having a certain mindset that it reverberates with. Healing magic only comes from a mental state of care and nurturing. Protective magic spells come from a mindset of wanting to protect or shield others. Damaging magic comes from righteous fury or wrath. Your cleric is more or less fishing the right spells out from that realm.

It can make for some interesting roleplay or storytelling as you can say if certain feelings or ideas are not felt as much, it can be harder to get certain spells. If the people have lost their caring nature for one another, healing becomes harder to find and use. This allows for a concept of a connected world, holistic in its feelings.

As for cleric domains, they represent the form that the cleric takes when they meditate and enter the domain mentally. When they are fishing their spells out, what form do they take, and what does that form pick up and end up feeling as a bonus?

If your divine magic is a realm, then perhaps it can be like the Matrix in Shadowrun, and the clerics venture there mentally when praying and finding their spells. The domains represent their "avatars" in this world, and how they are manifested within. It could be that other clerics actually see and meet them and see their avatars. The domains represent what their avatars may look like. A sun and healing cleric would have a kind glowing angel for an avatar, while a strength and war cleric would have a tall imposing knight clad in armor for an avatar. An air and trael cleric could be a bird like a crane.

Then again I'm just throwing ideas out here, use and discard as desired.

[cobaltstarfire]

It sounds like you've already got enough to justify deity free divine magic.

Become connected with the source and understand it, and the various domains can simply be a representation of that clerics focus/interests/intentions. Those on their own would easily guide and shape what a Cleric looks for and then takes from that special realm.

[Enyo]

What if it's basically that these accumulated beliefs, bits of knowledge, etc define a large interlocking system of relations - a fabric or a network or a flow or whatever analogy you like.

So in that context, domains would represent semi-exclusive regions of that pattern. If you satisfy the conditions for the stuff happening within one domain, you can't necessarily satisfy the conditions for other domains.

That's what I was trying to go with having a cleric's domain be, but the methods of it getting one are something that keeps leading me into repeatedly drawing serious blanks on the process.

It seems odd for someone to voluntarily seek out a domain to attune with, but involuntarily would leave just as big a plothole. Perhaps both methods are valid?

What if the thoughtform spirit gets has a certain amount of material that aligns to a domain, but is it something that's permanently fixed or easily removed and the caster could fish out again?

Maybe it's more like the thoughtforms are a mini-amalgamation of the realm itself that the caster picks up?

If your divine magic is a realm, then perhaps it can be like the Matrix in Shadowrun, and the clerics venture there mentally when praying and finding their spells.

What Stealth Marmot said describes what the place is like, The Matrix coupled with the Force, but with magic stuff, but the domains are more like a way to classify of a given unit of Akashic Realm-stuff (e.g. a memory from someone who reveled in violence would be labeled in either War or Death).

[Knaight]

You could just strip out divine magic entirely.

[Enyo]

A simplified take on what's been worked out so far, just need to fill out the missing step.

1)Entering the Akashic Realm.

2)A thoughtform is created from journeying.

3) Something something divine domain????????

4)The person is now a lv 1 divine caster.

[GungHo]

You could just strip out divine magic entirely.

Or call it something else, like "white magic", "earth magic", "space magic" or, in your case, Akashism. As written, divine magic, is tied to religion and has religious themes, but you can deconstruct a lot of that stuff and ultimately Flame Strike doesn't have to be granted to you by a deity, it can just be the power of Heart. For things which are harder to back out like domains, you can re-flavor those into thematically operating like schools work for wizards, for example. Holy and unholy channeling can pull on light or dark Askashic energies, or unholy can be a perversion of that energy, depending on how you swing it. You can even bring arcane magic into line with it and say that it's a more direct manipulation of Akashic energies.

Personally, I just deal with Dark and Light or the Sun, Moon, Stars, and Earth in my games, or a sort of elemental animism at most. I don't usually do pantheons, so I understand what you're trying to do.

[Joe the Rat]

So the Akashic Realm is sort of the Ur-space from which all ideas arise.
That would suggest that within that space there is an idealized version of an item, concept, force, etc. - Think Plato.
When you are creating your Akashic Soul-Self for casting, as it's sort of a meta-extension of the self, it's going to draw on elements that resonate with the individual. The Domains are the Ideals of concepts or materials or forces that, at some level, the character has a primal connection. So someone who rather likes fire would gain Fire/Light/Whatever the fireball option is in your version Domain. Someone exceedingly clever might get Knowledge, or Trickery, or Creation/Invention/crafting, depending on their focus.
Sometimes the connection isn't one the character would expect (for players that like irony), like the hyperviolent cleric with the Life domain.

[Enyo]

When you are creating your Akashic Soul-Self for casting, as it's sort of a meta-extension of the self, it's going to draw on elements that resonate with the individual. The Domains are the Ideals of concepts or materials or forces that, at some level, the character has a primal connection.

So someone who rather likes fire would gain Fire/Light/Whatever the fireball option is in your version Domain. Someone exceedingly clever might get Knowledge, or Trickery, or Creation/Invention/crafting, depending on their focus.
Sometimes the connection isn't one the character would expect (for players that like irony), like the hyperviolent cleric with the Life domain.

That's what I'm stuck on. Are the domains something the person consciously or unconsciously gravitates to?

Elemental domains like Light and Tempest are what I'm having the hardest time trying to extrapolate on aside from liking beams of light or plasma. The others are much easier due to them being more relateable humanistic concepts.

[Max_Killjoy]

I've been cutting my teeth in making my first homebrew campaign setting, only to have hit a roadblock: how divine magic works.

The "believe and worship the god of x, receive bacon spells" simply doesn't fit with the more "grounded" world.

What I've worked on so far is that all knowledge of it from every civilized group from the smallest tribe to the biggest empire leads to a common source called the Akashic Realm, where the thoughts, feelings, experiences, souls, etc. reverberate ever since life began.

Recurring patterns of belief within the collective consciousness create nexuses that form domains similar to a patron deity's.

When one channels the force of the Akashic Realm through practices such as meditation, it forms an entity out of them, not unlike a thoughtform, but can become a spritual extension of the person that gives them the ability to cast spells.

The only thing I have a problem is in how the thoughtform gains the "domains". All I could think of is that the specialized abilities are imprinted on, but it's a pretty vague explanation.

Are all forms of magic variations on tapping into the Akashic Realm, or are wizardry and sorcery completely distinct?


For the domains, I'd suggest that it's a reflection of the character's personality, or an inversion of it (as previously suggested, cosmic irony). Perhaps provide a way for these casters to add domains to their list.

Or, given the history of the Akashic Records as a concept in real life, perhaps those are the "pages" that the character has been able to "find" in the Realm.

Given the quasi-Eastern origin of the concept, perhaps a new character class/archetype that blends the Cleric and the Monk?

[Max_Killjoy]

So the Akashic Realm is sort of the Ur-space from which all ideas arise.
That would suggest that within that space there is an idealized version of an item, concept, force, etc. - Think Plato.

When looking at the concept as it's seen by its real-world adherents, it's more the space in which all ideas and thoughts are "recorded", rather than the origin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akashic_records

[Enyo]

Are all forms of magic variations on tapping into the Akashic Realm, or are wizardry and sorcery completely distinct?

The Akashic Realm encompasses all magic, but Bards, Clerics, Druids, Paladins, and Warlocks have a much stronger association with it than Wizards and Sorcerers would in comparison.

And having it be a reflection of the caster's personality wouldn't be a constant, given you and Joe the Rat mentioned the possibility of a violent cleric with the Life Domain.

When looking at the concept as it's seen by its real-world adherents, it's more the space in which all ideas and thoughts are "recorded", rather than the origin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akashic_records

Yep, that's what it's based off of, albeit with more creative liberties like combining The Force, The Matrix, and Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. It's a collection of sorts that one "reads".

[Max_Killjoy]

The Akashic Realm encompasses all magic, but Bards, Clerics, Druids, Paladins, and Warlocks have a much stronger association with it than Wizards and Sorcerers would in comparison.

Ok, brainstorming...

Cleric - communes with an "ideal self" in the Akashic Realm

Paladin - same

Druid - communes with the "animal and plant" forms that are sort of a combined projection of human concepts and myths of those species and the collected experiences from actual members of those species

Bard - experiences the records as music and poetry

Warlock - communes with a "darker self"

Wizard - must learn to read the words and formulas of the records, and literally "find" the pages... explains the need for years of study

Sorcerer - draws on a more instinctive connection with the raw energies and impressions

[wardeng]

In my own game system, I rely on explaining magic, in all its forms through extreme emotion. Things which make the character feel extraordinarily strongly can release amazing effects.

For this reason, the 5e trinkets I give my players give them minute magical effects, for no other reason than they care deeply about the trinket. Their overwhelming sense of belonging, ownership, and importance they place in the trinket allows them some otherworldly resistance or bonus that comes simply from their own bodies as a result of their extreme connection.

In the same way, my own system construes the following other explanations. One, divine magic comes from a complete understanding of the self. Just as above, but imagine the cleric's trinket is their own mind and their supreme zen, their oneness, their mindfulness, so to speak. Whatever specific deity that manifests as is irrelevant, the character may justify it however they please and still believe or not believe in a deity. Because the magic is actually explained via extreme emotion, how the characters in-fiction care to justify their powers is up to them.

Meanwhile, mages powers comes from the exact same thing, they just justify their own way. Arcane powers come from a supreme trust in the laws of logic and abstract mathematics that drive magical research. In my setting, magic is expressed in complex calculaic equations and the mages trust that those equation are true and supremely logical is enough to fuel that extreme emotion.

Monk magic comes from zen/nirvana as well.

Rangers & druids have an overwhelming trust in nature and the righteousness of preservation, the belief that the natural progression of the world is good and true.

Bards draw power from freedom and the realization that nothing really matters, a flippancy born from existential crisis and depression.

In any case, because feelings are ill-understood, especially amongst medieval technology levels, magic is likewise ill-understood. And this explains away magic in a satisfying, though not ultimately transparent way.

[Enyo]

Ok, brainstorming...

Cleric - communes with an "ideal self" in the Akashic Realm

Paladin - same

Druid - communes with the "animal and plant" forms that are sort of a combined projection of human concepts and myths of those species and the collected experiences from actual members of those species

Bard - experiences the records as music and poetry

Warlock - communes with a "darker self"

Wizard - must learn to read the words and formulas of the records, and literally "find" the pages... explains the need for years of study

Sorcerer - draws on a more instinctive connection with the raw energies and impressions

That's the gist of it, with the Wizard trying to piece it together through more heavy lifting through calculations and whatnot.

[Max_Killjoy]

That's the gist of it, with the Wizard trying to piece it together through more heavy lifting through calculations and whatnot.

Sounds like a wizard needs to do all those complex calculations, and consult tables and charts, and track the stars and planets, in order to "navigate" the Akashic Realm and find the pages and records. So while others have actual degrees of enlightenment, or natural connection, the wizard is getting by on raw intellect and study and drive.

I can see why wizards would tend towards being cold and arrogant and aloof and distant, especially with other casters. "You lot were born to magic, or blessed by a 'spirit'... I have given the better years of my life to make magic with nothing but my own efforts."

I like this.

[Enyo]

I pretty much need to explain how a cleric would be of the Light or Tempest Domain through the Akashic Realm, the only ones that are giving me trouble being the least life-related so I could finally wrap up the thread and a big part of the constructed world.

[Max_Killjoy]

I pretty much need to explain how a cleric would be of the Light or Tempest Domain through the Akashic Realm, the only ones that are giving me trouble being the least life-related so I could finally wrap up the thread and a big part of the constructed world.

Can you give a bit more explanation on how they cast from the other Domains, or how a Wizard casts a fireball, from accessing the Akashic Realm?

[Knaight]

I pretty much need to explain how a cleric would be of the Light or Tempest Domain through the Akashic Realm, the only ones that are giving me trouble being the least life-related so I could finally wrap up the thread and a big part of the constructed world.

They're accessing the works of mythical scholars who studied these particular things, and instead of doing it through study they're doing it through affinity. Picture Ibn al-Haytham or Faraday, although actually using the names add a bit of a comical tone that is probably unwanted (particulary if you bring in something like Fair Adaei, a title and name).

[Flickerdart]

If the Akashic Realm is the domain of thought and belief, perhaps it is enough that people believe clerics must have domains. And lo, it came to be, that a Priest of Renewal and Creation gained power over Light, and a Priest of Nature and Destruction gained power over the Tempest.

Standard spells are gained when the cleric reaches out to the Akashic Realm, but domain spells are gained when the Akashic Realm comes to the cleric. Hence the limited selection.

[Enyo]

Can you give a bit more explanation on how they cast from the other Domains, or how a Wizard casts a fireball, from accessing the Akashic Realm?

The Arcana, Death, Knowledge, Life, Nature, Trickery, and War Domains are stuff I could easily form a explanation than Light and Tempest.

Those aspects are easily more tied to human things than a raw force than the latter two.

A Wizard hardly accesses it compared to the other classes, they only pull a very small fraction of the essence when they cast a fireball through their focus.

[Max_Killjoy]

The Arcana, Death, Knowledge, Life, Nature, Trickery, and War Domains are stuff I could easily form a explanation than Light and Tempest.

OK, but... can you explain the "how" on those other domains? What's the process?

[Enyo]

OK, but... can you explain the "how" on those other domains? What's the process?

The process is that those domains are so closely tied in to the human condition that the Akashic Realm is the catalyst that grants agency to those that seek it.

Arcana, Knowledge, and Trickery are easily associated with strength of mind.

Life and Nature are forces tied to a vital essence present in all life.

War and Death both involve destroying life.

Light and Tempest are...?

[Max_Killjoy]

The process is that those domains are so closely tied in to the human condition that the Akashic Realm is the catalyst that grants agency to those that seek it.

Arcana, Knowledge, and Trickery are easily associated with strength of mind.

Life and Nature are forces tied to a vital essence present in all life.

War and Death both involve destroying life.

Light and Tempest are...?

Not to be a jerk, but, I keep asking "how", and you keep telling me "why".

How does the Akashic Realm, and seeking it, grant agency to cast those spells?

What is it about the two domains in question that this doesn't apply to?

[Enyo]

Not to be a jerk, but, I keep asking "how", and you keep telling me "why".

How does the Akashic Realm, and seeking it, grant agency to cast those spells?

What is it about the two domains in question that this doesn't apply to?

The Akashic Realm tethers the volatile forces of magic by giving it a shape and stabilizing it in a way.

This is done with abstractions formed by sentient beings in a two fold manner by the records of lives lead by previous souls and the ones who enter the realm and create their thoughtform.

It simplifies the concept of the power, thus making it relatively easier to obtain by describing and putting the aspects in vessels that are sculpted in ways thought to be appropriate.

An analogue would be someone hearing a part of a song they like and sampling it in theirs. Or the 4 chords progression in pop music.

This is actually one of the oldest, if not the most ancient methods of obtaining supernatural power before literacy and more complex aspects of civilization w a thing.