Why the hate?

[Kel_Arath]

I don't get why it seems that everyone in these forums all but hate samurai. What is it that makes people find them so bad? I know there are classes that I will put down and say how useless ability A is or something like that, but people are saying (or use to say) that samurai are the worst class in the game, below warrior. Or that one of the most useless things you can do is give the party a samurai, etc.
Personaly I like samurai, if not for being the expected 350% combat effective (thought they are quite effective in combat) that everyone needs around here, they are nice for flavor and such.

[Tor the Fallen]

Why not play fighter and role play the fluff?

[MeklorIlavator]

they are nice for flavor and such.

That's it in a nut shell. The only thing that they can really do is present pre-made fluff, erroneous fluff at that. Their intimidate ability doesn't work on most things you fight because of the hit-dice restriction, or if it does, it doesn't change the outcome. Add that to a misrepresentation of the samurai as someone who dual-wields and intimidates, when they actually had the Wasaki as a reserve blade, not as a main weapon, and that they were often mounted bowmen, and you can easily see the reason for the resentment it provokes.

[Xuincherguixe]

Samurai themselves? Not so much a problem. Samurai class? Poorly done.

[Caelestion]

The Complete Warrior samurai is pointless. It's a Westernised bawdlerisation of a theme done so much better in Oriental Adventures and Rokugan.

[Inyssius Tor]

The samurai is weaker than the warrior, especially if he tries to use any of his class abilities.

It's in the Complete Warrior.

It's an exaggeration to say they're as weak as commoners, but they are one of the weakest classes to grace the game. The only class features they get that are at all worth having are free exotic proficiency with bastard swords and two-weapon fighting. Unfortunately, he has no source of bonus damage, so this is more of a hindrance than a boon. Improved initiative, at eighth, is useful enough. He also gains quickdraw at fifth, but how often are you going to need that?

Kiai Smite allows him to add his charisma to attack and damage. Not terrible, but not enough uses per day to be all that useful.

He gets some others which are based on his ability to frighten enemies. These abilities form the bulk of the samurai's effectiveness, and they ultimately fall flat.

Staredown, mass staredown, and improved staredown are ways to use intimidate, essentially. You gain a bonus to the skill, and can eventually demoralize several opponents at once. For the cost of a standard action (a move action once you gain improved staredown at 14th). Making your enemies shaken is nice, I suppose, but as you go up in levels, the hit dice of most creatures rises faster than their CR. Unless you're only fighting humanoids with low to average wisdom, this is utterly not worthwhile.

At level twenty, you gain frightful presence. You can panic creatures with four hit dice or less (oh, joy). You can make creatures with up to nineteen hit dice shaken. Creatures with twenty hit dice or more are unaffected. So, pretty much anything that has a CR equal to your level is immune to your capstone ability.

That's the samurai. A few minor benefits, nearly all of which can be gained through fighter bonus feats, and some absolute dreck abilities that are almost never useful. A samurai is better than a commoner, but not much above a warrior. A level twenty samurai vs. a level twenty warrior would be a pretty close fight. The only real advantages the samurai would have are slightly more hit points (d10 rather than d8) and improved initiative. Assuming the warrior used a greatsword, and the samurai used his two weapons, the warrior would pull right ahead.

[Superglucose]

The Samurai is like the paladin, in that it uses charisma for stuff. But unlike the paladin, instead of spells it gets the ability to frighten stuff a fifth his level. Unlike the really cool mount, he gets... um... improved initiative? Instead of the really useful bonus to all saves, he gets... two... weapon... fighting... and a bonus exotic proficiency...

I compare it to the Paladin, because I always thought that Paladins (though they have to be 'good' in DnD) were the western equivalent to samurai: order, honor based warriors who were in the upper castes and had lots of money.

[Inyssius Tor]

Hey now, that's being unfair. You should say "Instead of the really useful bonus to all saves, he gets... two-weapon fighting with two specific weapons... and a bonus exotic proficiency... while two-weapon fighting... "

[Anxe]

Wait. People don't think the Samurai is the best thing since mini-gundams? What's wrong with you people! My favorite thing to terrorize my party with is Samurai. They whop serious butt.

[ZeroNumerous]

Wait. People don't think the Samurai is the best thing since mini-gundams? What's wrong with you people! My favorite thing to terrorize my party with is Samurai. They whop serious butt.

I love sarcasm.

[Belteshazzar]

Well personally I dislike all the myriad needless classes anyway (They should be flexible archetypes not job descriptions) The only thing they have going for them is a ridiculously useless Intimidation ability and that could be replaced by a single feat with some prerequisites.
Besides why does Japan get all the 'unique' classes like ninja, monk, or samurai. When will they release an African themed class like Manasi Huntsman or some such?

[TheOOB]

Keep in mind that a CW samurai using two-weapons (the default style for them) facing an equal level power attacking warrior with a two-handed weapon is actually at a disadvantage.

In addition the samurai has virtually no samurai flavor, only a few samurai in history used two swords.

[Yechezkiel]

For me, it was Samurai Jack. I hate it almost as much as that movie A.I.

[TheOOB]

If you want to play samurai, play a diamond mind/iron heart warblade, all the flavor, none of the suck.

[AslanCross]

I used to think the Samurai class was cool and that the haters just hated it because they were Western purists.

After reading ToB and this thread, I realize how much it actually sucks. Thank you, previous posters. I am enlightened. Now excuse me while I redesign some of my villain NPCs.

[Xuincherguixe]

I think one thing that helps with Chinese and Japanese themed prestige classes is that it's not that much of a stretch to get them into a D&D game.

That being said? It'd be great if they had some more prestige classes from something else.

[Turcano]

Besides why does Japan get all the 'unique' classes like ninja, monk, or samurai. When will they release an African themed class like Manasi Huntsman or some such?

It'll happen the day nerds stop watching anime and Africa is no longer The Land No One Cares About.

[TheOOB]

Themed base classes are fairly unnecessary. combat is abstract enough where different styles can be well represented by the core classes.

That said, japan is popular because a)they are an ever growing media giant, and b)the age of samurai and ninja was fairly recent when compared to many medieval settings.

[Xuincherguixe]

It'll happen the day nerds stop watching anime and Africa is no longer The Land No One Cares About.

Or, someone makes an Anime about Africa.

[Skjaldbakka]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anxe
Wait. People don't think the Samurai is the best thing since mini-gundams? What's wrong with you people! My favorite thing to terrorize my party with is Samurai. They whop serious butt.

I love sarcasm.

Actually, a CW samuria, regardless of the BAD FLUFF, can make an effective antagonist- all their class features require that the enemy be lower hit die, which the party will almost always qualify for. That being said, I've played a CW samurai, and, he was the best character in the game. Now this was because of a number of things: The DM catered to the kind of encounters a CW samurai is least useless against, I had the best stats in the game
(18,17,15,15,14,13- this character is the reason I use Point Buy as a DM), my lowest HP roll was a 7, and I was the most experienced player.

[Talya]

Note that OA samurai is not bad. It's the CW samurai that sucks so terribly.

[Yechezkiel]

Note that OA samurai is not bad. It's the CW samurai that sucks so terribly.

Very true. Especially in an ALL OA setting, not randomly mixed into other pots.

[TheOOB]

Though the OA samurai still isn't all that great, they lose the sheer quanity and versatility of fighter feats for the ability to enchant something that is likely worse then what a fighter can afford at equal level (remember greater magic weapon peeps), and it forces them to use their daisho, when many samurai used bows, polearms, and what not.

[Cryopyre]

I personally would prefer to multiclass a monk/fighter or monk/paladin to get a samurai. I MIGHT throw in Kiai Strike for a trade in on some other ability.

[ZeroNumerous]

(remember greater magic weapon peeps)

Actually you're pretty wrong there. Once you get the base +1, any other +X can be used to buy abilities rather than straight +X to damage. Greater Magic Weapon applies to OA Samurai as well.

Further: Fighter kinda.. sorta.. you know.. sucks. I don't need to go any more indepth to explain why it's better to be an OA Samurai than a Fighter.

[TheOOB]

Actually you're pretty wrong there. Once you get the base +1, any other +X can be used to buy abilities rather than straight +X to damage. Greater Magic Weapon applies to OA Samurai as well.

Further: Fighter kinda.. sorta.. you know.. sucks. I don't need to go any more indepth to explain why it's better to be an OA Samurai than a Fighter.

Acually you do, a fighter with well choosen feats can do loads of damage and get loads of attacks a turn and trip and or disarm any opponent who gets near them, how does getting a free magic weapon at the expense of less feats and a much smaller list to choose thouse feats from make the samurai better?

Remember, an well built fighter can be just as good if not better then a warblade.

[JaxGaret]

Remember, an well built fighter can be just as good if not better then a warblade.

I'm pretty sure that a well built Warblade > well built Fighter.

At least in terms of strict overall party-usefulness.

[Dhavaer]

OA Samurai get a good Will save and 4+Int skill points. That is, I think, worth 6 feats, particularly when two of those feats are heavy armour proficiency and shield proficiency.

[Caelestion]

Why does everyone insist that a class is crap if they can't use Greater Magic Weapon? I could think of many other 4th-level spells I'd rather cast and I'm sure that if I'm the weapon-user, the wizard in the party probably thinks the same.

[ZeroNumerous]

how does getting a free magic weapon at the expense of less feats and a much smaller list to choose those feats from make the samurai better?

Because everything useful the Fighter can choose, so can the Samurai. Further, the Fighter ends his advancement at level 4. Beyond that, Fighter is just a dead class. You get three whole feats at 4th before you must choose a different class that isn't useless. OA Samurai? He can go to 10th, then into any of the very useful Rokugan PrCs.