Summoner?

[Swooper]

I've heard it thrown around these forums quite often that wizards shouldn't be summoners, because that's the druid's job. I can't see how. The only advantage I can see druids having is the spontaneous casting of SNAs. A conjurer can do this too, with the right variant, and with another he can do so faster, too. There's also nothing stopping a sorcerer in selecting a bunch of summoning spells to fulfill a summoner role. Is the creature list for SNA somehow vastly superior to the Summon Monster list? What's the deal?

[giblina]

My personal experience is that yes, the list of creatures available on Summon Nature's Ally are better than those on summon monster.

The elementals in particular tend to be the strongest available summon at any given level, and a druid can summon better elementals than a wizard of the same level.

The druid's ability to wildshape also means the druid can turn into a tiny bird, go sit in a tree, and generally summon to her heart's content with little to no chance of being seen.

My only question about SNA is why is the grig, a stupid 1/2 hit die, CR 1 monster sitting on the highest level SNA list with elder elemental? :P

Please note I'm not calling druid overpowered, nor am I calling wizards underpowered. I'm just saying that as far as characters focused on summoning go, I like druids a lot better than arcane specialists.

[Rachel Lorelei]

I've heard it thrown around these forums quite often that wizards shouldn't be summoners, because that's the druid's job. I can't see how. The only advantage I can see druids having is the spontaneous casting of SNAs. A conjurer can do this too, with the right variant, and with another he can do so faster, too. There's also nothing stopping a sorcerer in selecting a bunch of summoning spells to fulfill a summoner role. Is the creature list for SNA somehow vastly superior to the Summon Monster list? What's the deal?

Here's the deal: both clerics and wizards get summoning spells; druids get the often-better SNA.

Now, wizards have a d4 hit die, no armor, a spellbook, a small list of spells known (compared to wizards and druids, who can access any spells on their list), etcetera etcetera.
So basically, this means that every time a wizard does something a cleric or druid could also do, he's suffering a boatload of disadvantages for nothing.

[Swooper]

Here's the deal: both clerics and wizards get summoning spells; druids get the often-better SNA.

Now, wizards have a d4 hit die, no armor, a spellbook, a small list of spells known (compared to wizards and druids, who can access any spells on their list), etcetera etcetera.
So basically, this means that every time a wizard does something a cleric or druid could also do, he's suffering a boatload of disadvantages for nothing.

Ahhh, now I get the reasoning behind this sentance:

...after all, every time a wizard casts a spell that's on a divine list, for that round he's a sucker.

Thank you. Also, I didn't realize SNA was better than SM. I'd think it should be the other way around, but that's maybe just me.

[mostlyharmful]

Arcane magic also offers far better offensive spells and battlefield control spells, divine is good for Buff/summoning because the combat spells in it's arsenal aren't so focussed on taking down badasses.

[giblina]

Yeah, and please note that conjuration / summoning has a lot of very nice spells.

It's just not the summon monster line :)

Generally speaking though, your enchantment and illusion lines are the ones that really screw over hordes of enemies (limited use against the mindless though).

[Swooper]

Yeah, and please note that conjuration / summoning has a lot of very nice spells.

It's just not the summon monster line :)

Yeah I know, Solid Fog, Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles, the Teleport line, Wall spells and so on. I was just pondering if using some summoned minions to go with that would be a good idea.

[Koji]

A wizard can still have some very effective minions, however. Dominate person, a shield guardian, and charm monster are a great start. It's just that the actual summoning is better handled by Summon Nature's Ally or some of the higher-end cleric spells.

[Swooper]

Actually, isn't Planar Binding superior to Planar Ally? Repeatable opposed Charisma checks sound like a much better idea than thousands of gold pieces per casting. You can just spend a portion of the gold to get a decent cloak of charisma, and as a wizard you can afford to have a good base Charisma. You only need Intelligence anyway. And Gate, for the really big ones, is just as doable with a wizard as a cleric. If anything, the wizard isn't limited in his choices because of his deity's alignment.

[Jack_Simth]

Thank you. Also, I didn't realize SNA was better than SM. I'd think it should be the other way around, but that's maybe just me.

Well... there is one slight advantage to the Celestial/Fiendish template that all the critters on the Summon Monster list get:

They understand common out of the box.

To get a Summon Monster III Celestial Dire Badger to dig you a hidey hole, you just need to tell it to do so (because it understands common, as the template gives it an Intelligence score of at least 3 without specifying a language, and every creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or more understands Common unless otherwise specified - it's in the SRD). To get a Summon Nature's Ally II Dire Badger to dig you a hidey hole, you need to cast Speak With Animals, and then do so.

Now, Speak With Animals isn't exactly a hard spell for a Druid to have, but it does take an extra casting.

Actually, isn't Planar Binding superior to Planar Ally? Repeatable opposed Charisma checks sound like a much better idea than thousands of gold pieces per casting. You can just spend a portion of the gold to get a decent cloak of charisma, and as a wizard you can afford to have a good base Charisma. You only need Intelligence anyway. And Gate, for the really big ones, is just as doable with a wizard as a cleric. If anything, the wizard isn't limited in his choices because of his deity's alignment.

Depends... what's the value of a lack of attempted revenge? After a Planar Binding, the critter can attempt to kill you in any method within it's abilities - including the use of allies. Planar Ally? They are servants of your deity, that you paid for their time. Why would they be annoyed?

Plus the Planar Ally line doesn't have that pesky Nat-1 clause.

[giblina]

Well... there is one slight advantage to the Celestial/Fiendish template that all the critters on the Summon Monster list get:

They understand common out of the box.

To get a Summon Monster III Celestial Dire Badger to dig you a hidey hole, you just need to tell it to do so (because it understands common, as the template gives it an Intelligence score of at least 3 without specifying a language, and every creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or more understands Common unless otherwise specified - it's in the SRD). To get a Summon Nature's Ally II Dire Badger to dig you a hidey hole, you need to cast Speak With Animals, and then do so.

Now, Speak With Animals isn't exactly a hard spell for a Druid to have, but it does take an extra casting.

Well, in terms of like for like, a druid would be casting summon nature's ally III (not II), in which case they could summon a thoqqua.

Thoqqua are elementals and with their 6 Int will generally speak terran and/or ignan (and any druid worth his salt will know all the elemental tongues :).

They also burrow (twice as fast as celestial dire badgers at that).

[Koji]

One good use for summon monster is to use the little bastards to set off traps.

Also, Summon Monster is actually a fairly solid choice until about level six, where even something weak can turn the battle in your favor. The problem is that after that, a wizard is simply too powerful to be wasting his time summoning in combat.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, in terms of like for like, a druid would be casting summon nature's ally III (not II), in which case they could summon a thoqqua.

Thoqqua are elementals and with their 6 Int will generally speak terran and/or ignan (and any druid worth his salt will know all the elemental tongues :).

They also burrow (twice as fast as celestial dire badgers at that).

Yes... but do they leave a useable tunnel?

The Dire Badger does - it's in the entry - but by default, a burrow speed doesn't leave a tunnel. Unless the monster entry says it does (as it does for the Dire Badger) you can't follow unless you also have some way to get through the ground.

The language issue is not a very big advantage, mind.... but it's there.

[giblina]

I bow to you, sir :)

Thoqqua are only 1-foot in diameter, so even if they were to leave a tunnel (presumably not, since it's not specified), it'd be too narrow for anyone except someone's familiar to use.

The druid could still use animal handling to try to get it to burrow, but that has the potential to be a real pain in the ass, especially mid-fight

[tobian]

Play an Archivist.

Then you have access (assuming you put it into prayerbook) to cast either SNA or SM. Planar ally to top it of-best of both worlds

Take at least 2 levels (I think, don't have CS in front of me) in Malconvoker and planar binding goes onto your spell list as well!

Then build all the tunnels you want with your celestial and dire badgers

[TheAlmightyOne]

Speaking personally I loathe druids. Therefore I have never traveled with a druid (save in neverwinter nights 2) and so have always used wizards to summon ccreatures. Although I am no longer aloud to use summon spells after Steve the giant spider was ripped apart by a weasel and the adventure was halted for a day while I held a funeral. Fun times.

[Bosh]

Alienist is a decent PrC for non-divine summoners. The psuedonatural template gives the critters some much-needed extra oomph.

[TheOOB]

The summon X spells are actually fairly limited in their usage. They are too short for most out of combat applications, and take too long for most combat applications. A typical summon spell takes a full round to cast (which is quite a while, during which you can be interrupted), and the creature needs to be around for quite some time before it can have a bigger impact on the battle then another spell, by which point the battle is likely over (most battles in D&D don't last all that long).

Summon spells are useful, but using spell slots on them is often a waste as there is a good chance you won't find a good occasion to use one any given day, hence why druids are so good with them, they don't need to waste spell slots on them to have them around.

As for planer binding/ally, both are great spells, but they are also situational, they are too expensive/dangerous to cast on a regular basis.

[Exil3dbyrd]

Also look at the Summon Undead X spells from the spell compendium, summon undead 2 has some good bang for it's buck at lower levels.

[PinkysBrain]

There's a couple ways to make SM worth it.

Normal summons are generally not worth a spell slot. Celestial bison is good for a couple of levels and critters with SLAs are situationally useful, also at high levels the storm elementals from MM3 have good damage.

Pseudonatural summons (with alienist) are capable of doing decent damage (because they get one surefire hit, so just summon critters with nice base damage and/or improved grab). You lose the flexibility of getting summons with useful SLAs though.

Elementals with rashemi elemental summoning are hugely overpowered (unless your opponents are immune to cold damage). You get better use out of it with SNA than SM, but even with SM it's silly.

[Fixer]

Using some of the splashbooks, my conjurer character (See Feezul in sig) enjoys the utility of Summon Monster II.

Vivacious creatures (Planar Handbook) are summonable here and up, and their aura of positive energy can allow for mass healing. 1d4 healing blast every 1d4 rounds plus 1 hit point for every round from the aura. Just have to worry about exploding by healing WAY too much but most characters can avoid that.

Ur'Epona substitution allows a 3rd level caster to be able to use Plane Shift 1/day per casting of Summon Monster II.

This is just what he has used so far.

[Username]

I would like to point out that thanks to the recent addition of a new Vestige (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718), Binders make for pretty impressive summoners. Mainly because they can send a non-stop stream of summoned creatures all day long.

[HydwenPrydain]

My only question about SNA is why is the grig, a stupid 1/2 hit die, CR 1 monster sitting on the highest level SNA list with elder elemental? :P

Probably because it can cast Otto's Irresistable Dance. Yes, this is stupid, since the sprite summoned by the same spell gets it without a save.

It hasn't been mentioned, but SNA also gets much better feats (RE: Greenbound Summoning makes your animals plant-types and they can cast entangle, Rashemi Elemental Summoning lets you summon swarms of cone of cold casting air elementals). And, with imbued summoning, druids have much better buffs to give their summons ([Greater] Magic Fang/VENOMFIRE).

Plus, the creatures are just better. For example, SNA IV gives you a unicorn that can cast cure moderate wounds once, cure light wounds three times, and neutralize poison and fight, or a giant crocodile with a +21 grapple check and 2d8+12 damage and improved grab.

SM IV gives you, uh, aid from a lantern archon. Or a Feindish dire wolf, which isn't so bad I guess, but is weak relative to the SNA fighting-creatures.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Player a Conjurer Specialist Mage using the Focused Specialist Mage Variant in Complete Mage and consider using one the UA/D20 SRD Conjurer Variant. Conjurers are very viable if you know your summoned creatures abilities, strengths and weaknesses to tailor to foes.

Go Master Specialist for 4 levels from levels 4 - 7.

Research an arcane variant of Lesser Planar Ally with original spell research so you can take the Thaumaturgist PRC from levels 8 - 12.

Take another level of Master Specialist.

Consider your PRC options: Arch Mage and Master Specialist or something else to taste.