How to keep monk occupied?

[delguidance]

I've played D&D since the 80's. I recently started DMing and I have my first 3.5 monk character to deal with.

My question is this: What kinds of monsters or tasks do you present that the monk deals with well? My perception is that it is not much of a team oriented class, it often ends up some distance away from the group, and it does a fury of blows that doesn't really hit much.

All I've come up with to throw at it is other monks, or giants because of their low ACs.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

[bosssmiley]

Monks are caster-gankers. A lot of their abilities (fast movement, obscene tumble, saves up to -here- and the like) are designed to get them into position to slap about Wizzys and Sorcs.

Remember: pointy hat make fire, pointy hat is not your friend.

[mostlyharmful]

-low will save NPCs get stunned, and drop everything they're holding,
-low strength get tripped, AoO when they stand and disrupts spellcasting
-slow opponents get spring attacked with a stunning fist or wounding kama
-high AC monsters just get flanked or taunted
-casters relying on distance to give them time to buff/blast


the key tousing the monk is to not expect them to stand in line with the fighter, let them flank, trip, stun, grapple, and generally buzz around being annoying. They ruin ambushes like no other class, a decent battlefield control idea for the monk is to use caltrops and alchemal items like tanglefoot bags to slow down/ split up oncoming hordes to set up the other party members. The monk might not do anything to them himself but it makes the fighter and wizard kickass.

there's little funnier than to have a BBEG be stunned and have his sword and shield / staff / unholy symbol nicked by roadrunner

[Keld Denar]

Agreed with above. You need to utilize your advantages, few and haphazard as they are. Use your high mobility to get around and flank foes. This helps you overcome your sub-par BAB, especially when flurrying at low levels, and gives your party rogue sneak attack or your party fighter power attack. Know what foes are weak vs your abilities. You can trip small foes with ease, and medium foes often enough. Your high rate of attacks benefits elemental damage or other per-hit effects, like the above mentioned wounding. Your often high reflex save combined with evasion means you can both be a trap finder/dodger and serve as a ground zero for any reflex save AoEs your party caster may toss out. Pick up some feats that will allow you to increase your damage or add disables. Freezing the lifeblood is a very potent feat for a 12th level monk to take. 1 hit paralyzes a foe for long enough that you can line up a massive CDG to finish it off several times.

Most of the people on this board are of the consensus that monks are inherently weak, which they can be. If you are creative enough, however, you can add a special flavor that makes you whole team excel just a little better, similarly to a bard or marshal would, but in different ways.

[blue_fenix]

I am of the opinion that the greatest mistake made in regards to the monk is asking "How can my monk do enough damage and have enough AC to be a great meleer like the fighter?" because the answer is that you don't. A monk should be grappling, stunning, tripping, disarming, chasing down the spellcaster, etc. To put it simply, a monk is there to control the battlefield and to use his high speed to quickly deal with emergency situations. As a DM, you should try to come up with complex battle situations for the monk to get creative with. The monk's worst fear is a BBEG with good saves, grapple mod, etc. that stands in one place while everyone full-attacks every round, not only because the monk will likely get one-shoted, but because the monk will be bored out of his mind.

[Rachel Lorelei]

But monks are not very good at controlling the battlefield. They are not good at tripping (no reach, generally low Strength), or at disarming (3/4 BAB, lower primary stat due to MAD, fists are light weapons so have a disarm penalty), or at other kinds of control (no reach, again, to use with Stand Still, say). Stunning fist is OK, but at higher level it works less and less, and even at lower levels it only works half the time--and at low levels, it runs out very fast. It still does at high levels if you use it every round. Monks aren't very good at grappling, either: 3/4 BAB, low Strength.

[Indon]

But monks are not very good at controlling the battlefield. They are not good at tripping (no reach, generally low Strength), or at disarming (3/4 BAB, lower primary stat due to MAD, fists are light weapons so have a disarm penalty), or at other kinds of control (no reach, again, to use with Stand Still, say). Stunning fist is OK, but at higher level it works less and less, and even at lower levels it only works half the time--and at low levels, it runs out very fast. It still does at high levels if you use it every round. Monks aren't very good at grappling, either: 3/4 BAB, low Strength.

Which is why you attack your opponent where they're weak. Small opponent, use a grapple. Don't bother to Disarm when you can Stun instead (or Sunder, monks deal good damage with their fists). If you pump Wisdom at a good rate, Stunning Fist should work reliably on targets without strong Fort saves pretty often into higher levels.

Picking up the Zen Archery feat (and getting proficient with a bow at some point, or, I guess, using a crossbow) also allows a monk to contribute as an archer.

Also, of course, don't neglect your mobility.

[Rachel Lorelei]

But... most opponents are strong humans or big monsters. Against that NPC barbarian or that troll, grappling, disarming, tripping, stunning... none of'em are very effective options. If you're faced with a halfling wizard who's standing there, sure, you could grapple him--but so could the fighter without Improved Grapple, since he's stronger and has more BAB to cancel out the lack of +4.

And "speed boost" isn't the same as mobility; mobility is things like flight and teleporting (once/day doesn't count).

[Wolfwood2]

But monks are not very good at controlling the battlefield. They are not good at tripping (no reach, generally low Strength), or at disarming (3/4 BAB, lower primary stat due to MAD, fists are light weapons so have a disarm penalty), or at other kinds of control (no reach, again, to use with Stand Still, say). Stunning fist is OK, but at higher level it works less and less, and even at lower levels it only works half the time--and at low levels, it runs out very fast. It still does at high levels if you use it every round. Monks aren't very good at grappling, either: 3/4 BAB, low Strength.

And the lesson here is that too many monks don't make strength enough of a priority. A strength-based monk will hit more often (without wasting a feat on weapon finesse) for more damage and better be able to pull off those disarms and trips and such. Yeah you lose out on AC, but if you trip/disarm/stun an enemy, then he doesn't get to attack you in the first place.

Most folks seem tempted to make elf and halfing finesse monks, but the truth is that the best PHB race for a monk may well be a half-orc.

[mostlyharmful]

Your enemy is a strong slow fighter pr monster, ok, take spring attack and Zoooooooom past them with a wounding weapon, use ranged attacks to wear them down while staying completely safe outside their melee range if they're close (if they're ranged sunder the bow, trip them as they're high dex fighter) ... the strength of the monk isn't that they are mobile on the grand scale of teleport it's that if they choose not to get hit they can be always just outside their enemies reach, the problem is that this makes this style of tactic a group unfriendly play so they can't use it so well in standerd teams.

Monks also make good one person adventures, they're ok in a wide range of fields rather than focused into one thing and without 30' move friends they can run rings around large groups.

[Rachel Lorelei]

The best race for a monk is Dwarf, actually.

Strength-based monks have their own set of problems--namely, they're even more squishy. Monks have a hard enough time in melee as is. A tripped or disarmed enemy can attack and kill you, and an enemy you fail to disarm or trip or stun (like oh, an ogre), even more so.

Edit: Sorry, but... Spring Attack is not a viable strategy. At all. Ever. And for a monk, using it means dealing insignificant damage while being vulnerable to charges and readied actions... and giving up your Flurry of Blows, the only thing you had going for you in melee. Oh, and spending three feats on it.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

An interesting thing with monks is poison use. At 11th level, if you can get poisons that actually have decent DCs and effects, you can dump the poision on yourself and automatically apply it while hitting/grappling (I would prefer to put it on my elbows/knees/feet rather than hands, but that's a minor detail).

The problem is that by level 11, good poisions are hard to find, and expensive.

[Runolfr]

My question is this: What kinds of monsters or tasks do you present that the monk deals with well?

I haven't seen a whole lot of monks played by my group, but I would expect them to be good at tumbling through enemy lines to provide flanking bonuses or to get at spellcasters.

If you've kept tight control over magic distribution, the monk might be the only character capable of hurting some monsters without being buffed first. Monsters that can only be hurt by magic or lawful-aligned weapons are good candidates.

Monks have some special abilities that make them well-suited to confronting enemy spell casters or monsters with spell-like abilities: Evasion against area-effect spells with a reflex save; Still Mind against enchantments and compulsions; Purity of Body against disease-causing spells or abilities; Diamond Body against poison. The monk can potentially shine if the party runs into a group of monsters that use these abilities.

[mostlyharmful]

the trick with spring attack is that you can make one attack without provoking AoO, now with the monk you get a wide range of atttack options, especially with the right weapons, without wading into stand and slug it out melee. The flurry is cool, if the opponent is focussed on someone else, but it isn't anything like the monks only (or even best) option.

a good monk build with the right equipment can spend all day hitting a monster once per round without the monster EVER getting a hit in, it might take a while but that's fine anything goes wrong just high tail it at fifty miles asn hour, the only thing that can keep up with you are flyers so go underground, under trees, zigzag, etc. then circle and have anouther go.

[Rachel Lorelei]

a good monk build with the right equipment can spend all day hitting a monster once per round without the monster EVER getting a hit in, it might take a while but that's fine anything goes wrong just high tail it at fifty miles asn hour, the only thing that can keep up with you are flyers so go underground, under trees, zigzag, etc. then circle and have anouther go.

Except that--and I had this problem while playing a monk with Spring Attack--the rest of your party kills the monster in four or five rounds. It never bothered with you because moving up and hitting/grappling you wasn't worth its while, you barely did any damage to it, and everyone feels like you added next to nothing to the fight--which is true.


Edit: I suppose the best way to make a monk feel useful is to add unoptimized enemy spellcasters--i.e. wizards or sorcerers who favor reflex-save damage spells, druids who summon a bunch of monsters whom the monk can actually out-melee, et cetera. That way the monk might feel good about himself.


Another edit to the below: uh, Draz? Solid Fog doesn't offer SR. It's a great anti-monk spell.

[Draz74]

Monks do have some nifty anti-caster abilities. The reason they're not considered effective anti-casters is because of a handful of very nasty defenses that most optimized casters will make sure to have.

Therefore, as a DM, if you're trying to give the Monk player a cookie, throw lots of casters at the party -- but make them casters who just don't use the good anti-Monk stuff.

Make these casters just a bit lower level than the party; the Monk won't do so well against BBEGs. Once the party reaches mid levels, enemy casters can be fearsome opponents even if they're lower-level, as long as they choose their spells wisely (except for the good anti-Monk spells). It's probably not realistic for them to focus their rays on the guy with the good touch AC, but they can throw out plenty of area-effect save-or-sucks that will let the Monk shine due to his saves being the best in the party.

Slow is a spell that could be seen a lot. Solid Fog will especially get the point across, once the Monk is high enough level to get Spell Resistance.

Just don't let the casters use Fly or other things that put them out of the Monk's reach. No Freedom of Movement to get them out of grapples. Arcane casters are more vulnerable to Stunning than divine casters. Avoid nice no-save, no-SR spells like Forcecage that are great against monks. Once the Monk gets SR, avoid Assay Spell Resistance or Spell Penetration or Practiced Spellcaster or anything else that helps casters overcome SR.

The party will be suitably impressed with the Monk if he can resist a Confusion and a Solid Fog spell, run right out from under the Solid Fog, Stun the Level 7 Kobold Sorcerer with a powerful blow that makes it drop its Lesser Metamagic Rod and Wand of Ray of Enfeeblement, and on the next turn is ready to grapple the Kobold Cleric in the next space over.

[mostlyharmful]

Except that--and I had this problem while playing a monk with Spring Attack--the rest of your party kills the monster in four or five rounds. It never bothered with you because moving up and hitting/grappling you wasn't worth its while, you barely did any damage to it, and everyone feels like you added next to nothing to the fight--which is true.


Edit: I suppose the best way to make a monk feel useful is to add unoptimized enemy spellcasters--i.e. wizards or sorcerers who favor reflex-save damage spells, druids who summon a bunch of monsters whom the monk can actually out-melee, et cetera. That way the monk might feel good about himself.


Another edit to the below: uh, Draz? Solid Fog doesn't offer SR. It's a great anti-monk spell.

which is why this is usually a distraction/ solo run/ last-option-in-the-barrel tactic, if you have a standing party of friends it does cut down the options but see earlier ideas of flanking, missle use and stunning. The monks not a wonderful character but it does have options in most situations that make it at least useful and can shine under the right circumstanes, makes it a fun class which needs to be thought about rather than a combat class with the options laid out.

[Rachel Lorelei]

which is why this is usually a distraction/ solo run/ last-option-in-the-barrel tactic, if you have a standing party of friends it does cut down the options but see earlier ideas of flanking, missle use and stunning. The monks not a wonderful character but it does have options in most situations that make it at least useful and can shine under the right circumstanes, makes it a fun class which needs to be thought about rather than a combat class with the options laid out.

But I think the point so far has been that the monk isn't very good even at its supposed "support-combatant" role (why not have another real combatant for the role?). Most of the time, the monk's options are not very effective; the rest of the time, someone else could do it just as well. I don't think that qualifies for "useful". I mean, it's more useful than not having a fifth party member, but that's not the same as useful.

Edit: oh, and solo, the enemy can ready actions or charge you if you're spring-attacking; distraction won't work since you're not enough of a threat to be distracting (and if you do distract the monster, it'll crush you); as a last-ditch tactic it's lacking because mosquito bites aren't very effective in an emergency.

[ZeroNumerous]

Alternatively.. Could you send monks against him. Preferably ones of his level or lower. Give them power attack and have them power attack for 3 every attack. It'll make him feel good about himself.

[SITB]

Oh yeah, great idea.

"Well, I may suck; but those guys suck even more!"

[lord_khaine]

i severely disagree about that, Rachel Lorelei, a monk is very good at combat controll, it just requires you to build it proberly, and play it so.

first of all trip, as a monk you should have strength as one of your main stats, so with the +4 you should have a more than even chance of tripping anything your size (besides dwarfs), and a decent chance of tripping large opponents, especaly if you make a flurry of trips.

as for grapple, the improved grapple bonus evens out with the difference in bab at lv 14, until then you have a greater bonus than a equal lved fighter, considering your str to be even (and it allmost should).
furthermore, with flurry you get more attacks for the opposed roll, giving you more chances to actualy win the oposed test, and get a hold of your opponent, who then suddenly have to waste give getting free instead of beating on you.
actualy i would say anything your size without freedom of movement active(its amazing how rarely clerics cast than fx) should be consideret a prime target for grapple and a follow up dose of sneak attack.

lastly stunning fist, if you invest just a little in wisdom, and take the feat that gives +2 dc, then you even stand a fair chance of stunning someone with a good fort save, but a lower con than your wisdom, and even then even if he saves you still does damage.

as for the monks are fragile thing, its actualy my experience that its not that much worse than a cleric, and a lot better than a rogue.
the trick is partly to avoid taking a full attack from something big and nasty, before you have had a chance to weaken it a bit, with eather stun or trip.
one way to acomplish this is to move into the way of whoever wants to attack you, and to into total defence.
by forcing your opponent to charge you avoid taking a full attack, and the +6 ac bonus should make sure you dont get hit (this isnt a good idea aginst charger builds like mountet oppoents), then before your oppoent gets a chance to full attack you he should be tripped/grappled by your full attack.

oh and lastly, as good feats are being mentioned, i would throw in weakening touch, its a stunnning fist replacment feat that instead gives a -6 str penalty, no save.

[Funkyodor]

Trip weapons are always good (too bad that monks don't get any by default) if your player likes tripping alot. Also if he gets frustrated on the disarming side, Quarterstaffs are good. Two hand weapon bonus makes up for the light fist penalties. Good part about it is he can wield a quarterstaff and still run around unarmed striking people. Remind him he can flurry thrown clubs for fun sometimes (they don't hit much with the crappy ranges that thrown weapons have, plus their clubs).

@V Doah! :Slap forehead Smiley: Forgot about the Kama.

@VV

Shame it's a light weapon though.

But tripping doesn't compare weapon sizes, only people sizes. So any tripping weapon is good because if you fail to trip and get tripped you can drop your weapon instead. Good for a Monk, Kama for the trip, then headbutt (or 'Peoples Elbow' for those WWE inclined folks) for the free attack.

[Draz74]

Trip weapons are always good (too bad that monks don't get any by default) if your player likes tripping alot

Except for the Kama.

[Overlard]

Except for the Kama.

Shame it's a light weapon though.

[ZeroNumerous]

Oh yeah, great idea.

"Well, I may suck; but those guys suck even more!"

It is kind of hard to keep a monk busy, ya know?

[Indon]

Man, I guess I forgot to actually post my reply to this thread. Oh, well. Most of it's still current.

Thing is, Monks aren't _just_ support combatants. They're also stealthers, and lesser skill-monkeys.

It's better to compare the Monk to the Rogue, Ranger, and Scout, than to the Fighter, because the Monk is in the same mobility class; the sneaky one.

Of that set, only the Ranger could reasonably exceed the Monk in melee capability (though the rogue can have more offensive capability, they're also significantly squishier), by essentially building like a fighter. The monk has high survivability against both melee and spells, even outside of other stealth-oriented classes, and they can easily keep up with even the Scout when on the prowl.

Or, in other words, you can't send the Fighter to help do the Rogue's job. But you can send the Monk.

[Leon]

Give them a Rubix cube

[Fixer]

My question is this: What kinds of monsters or tasks do you present that the monk deals with well?

What is your purpose for the encounter?

Monks nearly never (in my experience) invest in Diplomacy. Social encounters can cause a combat-oriented monk to be out of element without undue possibility of character death.

Monks usually deal well with opponents with weapons that can be grappled, disarmed or tripped. They do not deal nearly as well with opponents with natural weapons (trolls, animals, etc).

As mentioned previously, grapple monks are great against spellcasters who rely on somatic components. Monks that cannot fly are in a bit of trouble from spellcasters who can fly outside of their jump range. (What, has no one else ever tried having their monk jump to grapple a flying wizard? Saved my party's buttocks when I did it. No one thought to bring ranged weapons.)

• For creating challenging opponents for a monk, try 'dressing up' opponents in inappropriate outfits (not like that, that's disturbing). Hats of disguise or illusions can make an armored fighter look like a mage and have a mage look like a heavily armed fighter. After the monk disarms or grabs the wrong one, the illusion goes away and the monk is in an awkward spot for a round or two.
• Having trained animals with pounce and numerous attacks attempt to grapple the monk will also work well to keep the monk stationary and busy.
• Have spellcasters use spells that do not allow saving throws: Most conjuration/summoning spells, Abjuration spells, Illusion spells (they might get a save AFTER they interact, but that's still a wasted round for the monk), Transmutation spells on the caster/his allies.

[Person_Man]

Monks got the shaft in 3.5.

Basically you're not particularly great at any party role.

You can Scout, but not as well as classes with Invisibility, Camouflage, Hide in Plain Site, Disguise, Bluff, more Skill points and less MAD, etc.

You can hit people and make lots of attacks on a full attack action, but due to mediocre BAB and the one handed restriction on Flurry, your damage scales very poorly.

Your AC starts is generally lower then most other classes until you can afford enough magic items, and then you have to spend more money then most other classes to get it to a respectable level.

Your hit points are below that of other front liners, thanks to a d8 HD and MAD.

And despite popular belief, Monks are not good at killing spellcasters. They're good at resisting magic. Very good, in fact. But they lack the ability to bypass or dispel the most popular spellcaster defenses, such as Greater Invisibility, Fly, Stoneskin, Protection from Arrows, etc. Thus they can stand around the battlefield and take spell attacks, but can't really do much to actually kill spellcasters.

My suggestion is that you play another class and roleplay being a Monk. Or you can head into a strong Monk-ish prestige class as early as possible.

[ZeroNumerous]

My suggestion is that you play another class and roleplay being a Monk. Or you can head into a strong Monk-ish prestige class as early as possible.

Unfortunately, the OP isn't looking for playing a Monk. He's looking for information on opponents for a Monk PC in his game. So far, the best suggestion offered was other Monks who multi-classed into the Mook(Warrior) NPC-class.