Immortal Races

[Alleine]

When I think of immortal races in DnD, only 2 come to mind. The Elan and the Killoren, and both make sense, sort of. The Killoren are so in tune with nature or whatever that they can be immortal, if they feel like it. They also don't get any older than Old. It sounds reasonable to me, get kinda old before the fact that you are pretty much a racial manifestation of nature to kick in.

Elans prove to be a bit more problematic for me, especially since I'm playing one. Sure, they're immortal, their psionic whatevers, or the fact that they're manufactured means no dying for them, I get that, but they still age. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me that an immortal race should age very much, if at all, it kinda ruins the immortal part for me. I realize being immortal doesn't mean eternal youth, but it seems to me that if an Elan's body deteriorates for the first thousand years, why doesn't it just keep on going? It seems to make immortality a moot point when your body still falls to pieces...

Anyway, can anyone give me an explanation of why this is? Sorry if its been brought up before.

[mostlyharmful]

If you're looking for a way to make it work you might try the Timelord way, get slowly older until the system reboots and you get a newer body but it rejigs your mind, stops you getting static while letting you empathize with the "lesser races" without turning into an ass.

Don't know how the FR races manage the biological / mental problems of getting older while being immortal.

[Seffbasilisk]

Elans repair thier body in 'Trance'. So effectivly, as I read it, if they don't want to age...they don't age.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

You forgot Warforged.

[puppyavenger]

You forgot Warforged.

And dragons

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

And dragons

They're not immortal, they just live a loooooong time.

[ZeroNumerous]

Anything undead.

[Jack Mann]

And dragons

Read Draconomicon; it tells how long dragons live. It's just that in a typical campaign, the timespan is so great it's unlikely to ever come up.

Of course, most monsters don't come with lifespans specified, so a lot of that needs to be DM-adjudicated.

EDIT: Of course, if you want really old, look to aboleths, who see the gods as a bunch of johnnies-come-lately.

[Yuki Akuma]

Of course, if you want really old, look to aboleths, who see the gods as a bunch of johnnies-come-lately.

That's more due to the fact that they have genetic memories than their life span. Genetic memories that span back to before the creation of the multiverse, due to them being from the multiverse that existed before the Great Wheel.

Aboleths are awesome.

[Emperor Tippy]

What I hate from a fluff point of view for Elans (and other long lived races) are the mental stat boosts and the ability penalties.

Think about it, why does it take an Elan over a thousand years to get the same boost as it takes a human 70 years to get. Elves are the same way. And why does a hundred thousand year old Elan get the same boosts as a thousand year old Elan? An Elan's physical ability scores dropping doesn't make sense either. They functionally rebuild their body every day. Thats why they live forever. Yet they still manage to have a body that deteriorates over time?

I understand from a balance point of view why such things are done but it still doesn't make any sense from a fluff point of view.

[JackMage666]

Well, in the Elans 682nd year of life, he broke his arm, and hasn't reparied it fully. Hence, the penalty.
And the bonus comes from reaching levels of maturity. Since elves and elans live longer, they take more time to mature.
Mostly, it's D&D, and that's how it works.

[....]

Because human's have short life spans, but burn like bright, flaming candles.

They have no limits on what they can achieve and learn things as quickly and effeciently as possible, knowing they're going to be so much dust in the wind very soon.

Other races don't see any reason to rush things.

[TheOOB]

Keep in mind that immortal is a relative term. Just because you can live thousands of years doesn't mean you will, you'll probably be killed by something long before you see your second century, much less your second millennium.

What that means is that few Elans living among humans would live much longer then a human, stuff kills humans all the time, violence, harsh environments, disease, famine, ect. It stands to reason that an Elan living under similar conditions as a human would have a similar life span, likely in the 30-40 year range (just because humans in D&D can live to 70+ doesn't mean they often do).

Take shadowrun for instance, elves in shadowrun live longer then humans, we don't know how long they do live because they've only been around for less then seventy years and they still show no signs of aging past their prime, heck the could be immortal. Despite that there are still very few elves over the age of 40, and even less over 50. Stuff just happens, elves die from outside causes before old age. Perhaps a few will live on to see one hundred, and they may still be as young and strong as ever, but that will be such a small number as to be a little problem to the world at large.

So, immortality isn't that big of a problem. Some things live forever unless killed, some things just live an arbitrarily long time before being killed. Even the gods get killed eventually, so immortality doesn't really exist.

Just remember, you are immortal until proven dead.

[Tequila Sunrise]

Anyway, can anyone give me an explanation of why this is? Sorry if its been brought up before.

Meh, it's d&d. If you don't like it, change it. I myself hate when a supplement like the Draconomicon tries to make dragons mortal; true dragons in my games are always immortal.

[TheOOB]

Meh, it's d&d. If you don't like it, change it. I myself hate when a supplement like the Draconomicon tries to make dragons mortal; true dragons in my games are always immortal.

When you live as long as true dragons do whether you are immortal or not is irrelevant. There is virtually no chance you will die of old age before someone kills you, and by the great wyrm stage I'm sure they can find at least one or two ways to cheat death.

How long you can live doesn't matter, how long you do live means a lot more.

[Inyssius Tor]

Aye; with that much time to think of a workaround, any dragon who just dies of old age would probably have committed suicide anyway.

[Alleine]

Being immortal has nothing to do with being killed. If you can't die at all, its something else entirely. Immortality is not dying by natural means, like old age. A sword can do the job any time, but otherwise you'll keep on living.

The reason I didn't include warforged is because I'm not sure about them. All I have is the ECS which tops them out at something like 150 years, but says that any warforged a character plays can't be any older than 33 because the warforged haven't been around longer than 33 years. I take the unlisted aging as WotC being lazy.

An Elan that broke his arm but didn't heal it fully doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because if he can repair his own body to live forever, you'll need to be able to repair things a bit more tough and sophisticated than a broken bone. And if an Elan can't heal damage like that, but only the wear and tear of centuries, there are always clerics around somewhere that specialize in curing wounds. It seems to me that WotC has a strange aversion to things that make sense.

[Ulzgoroth]

Well, if they aren't allowed to play with epic magic or bargain with gods (and great wyrms are powerful, but not that powerful unless they've got a special edge for some reason) there are some severe limits on the mechanically supported ways to go immortal.

Though if you manage to gain 4 levels every 50 years (or 100, for metallics) and pump charisma, you'll never actually fall into twilight. And will be more powerful than some deities in a few centuries, most likely.

[kpenguin]

Well, technically, being immortal means that you can't die, ever, under any circumstance. The tarrasque is a good example of being truly immortal. Just being immune to death by natural causes is a whole different word entirely. I think the word is ageless, but I could be wrong.

[Inyssius Tor]

Ah, ageless is a good word.

The reason I didn't include warforged is because I'm not sure about them. All I have is the ECS which tops them out at something like 150 years, but says that any warforged a character plays can't be any older than 33 because the warforged haven't been around longer than 33 years. I take the unlisted aging as WotC being lazy.

Well, there are really only three options, regarding warforged ages.

1. You could be playing a warforged that's only a year or two old, having been born in the Lord of Blades's or Cannith's secret forge (you're brand new, and probably substantially different from the "norm"),
2. you could be playing a warforged which is around 20-30 years old; you were born during the War, and you certainly haven't started breaking down yet,
3. or you could be playing as a Xen'drik-made warforged, made from eldritch materials in aeons long past. Such a creature would either be so different from today's 'forged as to make aging charts useless, or so old that you could apply any penalties you feel dramatically appropriate.

Really, there isn't anything you could do with an aging chart.

EDIT: Oh, you could make a plot around it (hey, every 'forged alive is just hitting middle age now), but that isn't really the province of a mundane aging chart in a canonical book, is it?

[Jack Mann]

By the time a dragon gets that point, they're probably either extremely paranoid and looking to any possible method to squeeze a few more years out of life, or tired of it all and ready to end it.

And Kpenguin, immortality has a lot of different meanings, but the only solid one is that you don't die of normal means like aging. The norse gods were immortal, but they could still be killed.

[Alleine]

The definition of immortal as I look into a dictionary reads: Living forever, never dying or decaying.

Ageless: Never growing or appearing to grow old.

Hmm, I guess I don't know the word for someone who can't die of natural causes. Thats really weird...
As for ageless, I think only the Killoren apply for that category, although they technically do age into middle and old, not anything older though.

[Emperor Tippy]

The definition of immortal as I look into a dictionary reads: Living forever, never dying or decaying.

Ageless: Never growing or appearing to grow old.

Hmm, I guess I don't know the word for someone who can't die of natural causes. Thats really weird...
As for ageless, I think only the Killoren apply for that category, although they technically do age into middle and old, not anything older though.

Elans can't die of old age. No maximum age. Check the XPH errata or the SRD.

[Alleine]

Elans can't die of old age. No maximum age. Check the XPH errata or the SRD.

I know, but they do age. They can live forever, but they still get old. Older than Killorens at least.

[Emperor Tippy]

I know, but they do age. They can live forever, but they still get old. Older than Killorens at least.

Again, bad mechanics for their fluff.

They really shouldn't ever take a hit to their physical ability scores.

[Diggorian]

No physical hits for the Elan, and no mental bumps is how I'd do it. "Ageless" label for this condition fits best. Can fluff it as a side effect of being recycled and all.

Still, this whole discussion makes Thri-kreen depressed.

[Emperor Tippy]

No physical hits for the Elan, and no mental bumps is how I'd do it. "Ageless" label for this condition fits best. Can fluff it as a side effect of being recycled and all.

Still, this whole discussion makes Thri-kreen depressed.

Again, still makes no sense. If increased mental stats are a function of experiences gained over time then why wouldn't they get them?

I could see chucking all aging benefits for all player races but it doesn't make sense to chuck the penalties for most races or to remove the benefits for some races (such as elans).

Balance wise it does but not fluff wise.

[Diggorian]

Again, still makes no sense. If increased mental stats are a function of experiences gained over time then why wouldn't they get them?

*Ahem*

"As amazing as the process of recreation is, as evidenced in the Elan form, it is not perfect. Though preternaturally resiliant, Elan mental capabilities dont show the refinement of other intelligent creatures."

tah-dah

[SMDVogrin]

Well, if they aren't allowed to play with epic magic or bargain with gods (and great wyrms are powerful, but not that powerful unless they've got a special edge for some reason) there are some severe limits on the mechanically supported ways to go immortal.

12 levels of Dragon Ascendant will do it. :)

All you have to do is have BAB +30, 12 feats, and eat your horde.

[Emperor Tippy]

*Ahem*

"As amazing as the process of recreation is, as evidenced in the Elan form, it is not perfect. Though preternaturally resiliant, Elan mental capabilities dont show the refinement of other intelligent creatures."

tah-dah

Considering that their favored class is Psion (an Int based class), they can know any language as a bonus language, and they are transformed humans that makes little sense.

Granted the whole D&D system makes little sense outside of combat.